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Thread: weaponized Covid

  1. #1
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    Default weaponized Covid

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/08/u...e-hearing.html

    Our republicans in congress have opened hearings into the origins of Covid - and right out of the gate, have gone to the questionable suggestion that it's via lab-leak, although their level of confidence is low. Surprising, no?

    SA just had an interesting article on just this - a bit more reasoned explanation of the nomenclature.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...c-conclusions/
    Policy | Opinion

    Lab-Leak Intelligence Reports Aren’t Scientific Conclusions

    Intelligence reports supporting the lab-leak theory for COVID are not based in science





    Intelligence reports have a checkered history. They have recently seized center stage in the debate over the origin of the pandemic virus. With a change of mind at the Department of Energy, and a mere restatement of position at the FBI, those arguing that the SARS-CoV-2 virus leaked from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology are pressing their case. Most agencies still favor the natural route or say they don’t know.

    This latest twist comes courtesy of an update to a 90-day intelligence agency review that President Biden received in 2021. The review weighed whether the virus had jumped from experiments at China’s Wuhan Institute of Virology, the “lab-leak” theory, or from a nearby animal market in that city where the outbreak first started, the “natural-origin” one.
    We now know that the DOE was previously one of four agencies, along with the National Intelligence Council, that assessed, with “low confidence,” that the natural route was more likely. The reversal by the department on this point has the DOE supporting a lab origin, again with “low confidence.” Meanwhile the FBI’s statement reveals it was the one agency from the review’s unclassified summary that felt, with “moderate confidence,” that a lab leak was likely—unlike the others, which were neutral or leaned the opposite way.
    An intelligence assessment isn’t a scientific conclusion. They are different beasts. The summary itself observes that different agencies weigh intelligence reporting and scientific publications differently. The important factor for intelligence assessments is the veracity of sources, whereas scientific conclusions depend on data and the coherence of the argument the data support. However, data from a scientist who has proved unreliable in the past will weigh less heavily in scientific conclusions, and intelligence analysts will regard fanciful stories from an otherwise reliable informant skeptically. The scientific data are available to the public, unlike the reporting that underlies the intelligence assessments.

    Scientists share information widely, but intelligence professionals prefer to keep theirs to themselves. We don’t know whether new information changed the DOE’s position, or what that new information might be. The latest explanation of the DOE’s change remains unspecific. Switching from one low-confidence assessment to another is not a big step. The definition of low confidence is “that the information’s credibility and/or plausibility is uncertain, that the information is too fragmented or poorly corroborated to make solid analytical inferences, or that reliability of the sources is questionable.”
    In the weeks after September 11, 2001, letters containing anthrax spores were mailed to NBC News, the New York Post and the offices of then-Senators Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy. The FBI had primary responsibility for investigating who sent those letters. The investigation required seven years to develop a primarily circumstantial case against Bruce Ivins, a microbiologist and researcher at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases. That’s seven years for a more straightforward investigation than the one into the origins of SARS-CoV-2. Ivins killed himself in 2008, just as the Department of Justice was about to indict him.

    Two later investigations, by a panel of scientists convened by the National Research Council of the National Academies and by the Government Accountability Office, found the FBI’s handling of samples inadequate to support their conclusions. An independent investigation by news organizations came to the same conclusions. Solving the mystery of the anthrax letters required cutting-edge science, which is not the FBI’s expertise.
    Cutting-edge science is the expertise of the Department of Energy, however, which runs 17 national laboratories, several studying SARS-CoV-2 and its origins. Intelligence professionals in the national laboratories work with scientists to develop assessments. Because they are embedded in the laboratories, they can develop working relationships to explore puzzles of science and intelligence. Because I was responsible for a similar environmental cleanup site at Los Alamos National Laboratory, a question that I was involved in during the 1990s was whether the Soviets had done hydrodynamic tests at the Semipalatinsk Nuclear Test Site, scattering metallic plutonium chunks. Members of the intelligence division came to me and other chemists, and our physicist colleagues, to learn how and why such tests would have been performed, and what clues they would leave behind for analysts to spot. Eventually, we found that indeed tests were run in this way. A joint program with Russia and Kazakhstan recovered 100 kilograms of plutonium that might have gone to scavengers, as a result of this detective work.

    Even the experts have a difficult problem in determining how diseases jump to humans. We still do not know the origin of the Ebola virus in humans, and it took three decades for scientists to trace the HIV virus, first identified in humans in the early 1980s, to a jump from wild monkeys in the 1920s.
    Genetic markers for the possible pathways of SARS-CoV-2 to humans can be studied by DNA analysis and comparison to other viruses. No definitive evidence of laboratory manipulation has been presented. No connections have been found to known experiments at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, although China has not been forthcoming. There are gaps in the ancestry of SARS-CoV-2 that need to be closed before a definitive scientific conclusion can be made.

    An intelligence estimate, particularly one developed in only 90 days, is simply not enough to determine how a virus leaped into humans. Science requires more. So far, the scientific evidence leans toward an accidental transfer from animals to humans, probably at the Wuhan animal market. The intelligence assessment continues to point in that direction—even with the DOE reversal— with admittedly not enough evidence for a reliable conclusion. “Trust me” is the inclination of the intelligence professional in arguing to the public and the basis for the lab leak origin, but a natural origin is backed by public data in scientific journals.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  2. #2
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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Thanks George. It’s really a shame how people prefer framing an issue into us/them instead of what the actual facts are in all their uncertainties. It’s such a waste.

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Tensions between US and China have been escalating over the last dozen years. Is American “Intelligence” developing this season’s version of Yellow Cake and WMDs?
    “Come, come, my conservative friend, wipe the dew off your spectacles and see the world is moving" - Elizabeth Cady Stanton

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    The FBI has taken the position that it was most likely a lab leak.

    I question Congress' motives, but they may be reaching the correct result in spite of themselves.
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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    Tensions between US and China have been escalating over the last dozen years. Is American “Intelligence” developing this season’s version of Yellow Cake and WMDs?
    If that’s what our political leadership wants then the intel community will step up to the plate and provide what’s wanted. It definitely isn’t science but it wins battles in the beltway.

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    The FBI has taken the position that it was most likely a lab leak.
    with what degree of confidence? Like the article George posted they don’t need to provide their data and analysis while the scientific community does. And looking at the decades it took to identify the origin of other diseases it sure sounds like intel community conclusions on science matters should have one big asterix on it. Btw why was the DOE and FBI conclusions identified but the other six agencies weren’t?
    to repeat, an intelligence estimate is not a scientific conclusion.

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Yup. And .... there's is 'low confidence'. Which means.... no confidence.

    I wonder, too, about the politics of this. It stinks - and unfortunately, gives 'ammo' to those wishing to stir the $hit.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    A conclusive answer to the origin question is not likely. I would like more focus on lab leaks because they happen too often and there are vested interests that prefer we not pay much attention to the problem.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    I thought we were not allowed to speculate on the lab leak deal. At the risk of being thought a nut-job. It’s so hard to keep up with what I am supposed to believe.

    DFDF1D30-EE5C-4690-9C05-14920702319F.jpg

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    I thought we were not allowed to speculate on the lab leak deal. At the risk of being thought a nut-job. It’s so hard to keep up with what I am supposed to believe.

    DFDF1D30-EE5C-4690-9C05-14920702319F.jpg
    You’re supposed to read beyond a headline.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Yep. The WSJ has been, to good effect, 'weaponized', as well. RWW, unfortunately. It didn't used to be so.

    I know - it's expecting an awful lot - but you might try reading the OP info, and if 'curious', the entire article.

    An intelligence assessment isn’t a scientific conclusion. They are different beasts. The summary itself observes that different agencies weigh intelligence reporting and scientific publications differently. The important factor for intelligence assessments is the veracity of sources, whereas scientific conclusions depend on data and the coherence of the argument the data support. However, data from a scientist who has proved unreliable in the past will weigh less heavily in scientific conclusions, and intelligence analysts will regard fanciful stories from an otherwise reliable informant skeptically. The scientific data are available to the public, unlike the reporting that underlies the intelligence assessments.
    Or do the RD thing, and look at what has been posted here.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

  12. #12
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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    The WSJ is one of the few real papers left.

    Reminds me of the train derailment EPA guy. “We have no evidence of contamination.” Before he had taken any air or soil tests.

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    to repeat, an intelligence estimate is not a scientific conclusion.
    Of course not. The FBI and CDC use different tools and study the problem from very different perspectives.

    I don't know that a scientific conclusion will ever be reached. We've seen how fast it mutates and finding DNA markers that point to a lab seem unlikely. But I'm no expert.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    I recall, from the early science, that the 'markers' they use to assess source, pointed away from this being a 'manufactured' virus - there was, of course, a lot of conspiracy theories of that. And what I've read - and what all of the 'science' sources point to, is this is not a 'lab spill' (neutral to good confidence). The only outlier is...DOE. And theres is not a 'science' opinion - it's based on 'intelligence' sources - and even they are of 'low' confidence. *Some* may wish this is true - but that's simple partisanship/BS.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Developed in a lab and delivered around the world by balloon.

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Just what difference does it make at this point? Is it going to affect the price of tea in China because I only have 2 tea bags left?

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    What difference? In terms of Covid, little. *We* still know what needs to be done, going forward.

    In terms of the Congressional politicking - it means a lot. A diversion from actual governance - notice the Republicans have not/will not offer up a budget? And there's an election brewing.... and need to keep 'the base' well-fed with conspiracy theories.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    What difference? In terms of Covid, little. *We* still know what needs to be done, going forward.

    In terms of the Congressional politicking - it means a lot. A diversion from actual governance - notice the Republicans have not/will not offer up a budget? And there's an election brewing.... and need to keep 'the base' well-fed with conspiracy theories.
    It’s a tactical maneuver promoting a general sense of anxiety about external threats that is good for feeding the MIC, I mean being “Strong on Defense!”
    Oh course a few extra billion in the MIC does jack sh!t for pandemic response but that’s immaterial for the MIC.

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Yeah a couple more aircraft carriers will protect us from future "Chinese Viruses".

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    Yeah a couple more aircraft carriers will protect us from future "Chinese Viruses".
    Likewise $100’s Billions in canceled weapon systems vs child and elder care. It’s effing insane.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    The vast majority of the pop. doesn't think it through - at all.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    I said a couple of times in the Covid thread: "Is it too early to say Covid was created in a laboratory as a bioweapon?" , I got refuted and "fact checked" by the Nature article etc. Now the House Republicans are finding out Covid was created in the USA , funded by Uncle Sam, and when the research on a new bioweapon couldn't be concealed as "gain of function" we continued the research in China. Fmr. CDC head Redfield reinforces belief that Covid ‘more likely’ spread from lab leak NBC News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBYxV0HHVoc

    The Killing Joke is on the Republicans, you can't give more money to the military industrial complex and your donors in the name of saving us from a future Covid. The money Congress already gave to Department of Defense research gave us Covid, and airborne Ebola, and Marburg. And pretty much managed the vaccine production and quality control.

    This has all been a remedial exercise for humanity to try again and learn the lesson taught by Trofim Lysenko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko

    Socialism is bad, even military Socialism.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    No. None of your conspiracy theory nonsense is true.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    No. None of your conspiracy theory nonsense is true.
    We certainly hope it isn't. But all of it was reported as it was happening, just censored for us by those that profited from the chosen solution, just like the Eco Health Alliance influenced original Nature article, but over time, even in Nature, the lab leak evidence began to be recognized
    Covid Lab Leak Evidence Is Compelling For Good Reason - Matt Ridleyhttps://www.mattridley.co.uk/blog/co...r-good-reason/
    Last edited by Landrith; 03-09-2023 at 03:23 PM.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    No. It's not. Even shouting it, won't change that. But if you're looking to confirm your bias - go for it.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    No. It's not. Even shouting it, won't change that. But if you're looking to confirm your bias - go for it.
    That is not my capitalization, sorry to have appeared confrontative. I will edit it. It is how the web article I copied and posted was written.

    We can agree that is the thing about the truth versus Fact Checking and more overt censorship of dissenting views ( the Lysenko totalitarian socialist solution); you don't have to enforce the truth. People in their individual selfish interest use more accurate information to their greedy advantage versus the Socialized Bill Gates/Faucci information forced in the mass media (The Ayn Rand Objectivism response to Lysenko).

  27. #27
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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Agree? Suspect we don't. I've little use for the ease with which disinformation can be spread, with no accountability. It is damaging. I'd prefer accountability.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    i want to know what kind of moron can just dismiss the lab leak theory. as if it's not entirely possible. i would even accept "not likely, but possible". but that's not what we've been fed the last 3 years is it?

  29. #29
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    Default Re: weaponized Covid

    Some thought that drinking bleach or sticking a uv light up their nether regions made sense.. What kind of moron,? just asking for a friend....

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