Classic sailboat designs are superior

[George.]

for everything except racing "modern" boats to windward.*

A long keel, proper bow and stern overhangs, a low aspect ratio rig, proper shrouds, foresails smaller than the main - all make for far more comfort, enjoyment, safety, and ease of handling.

So "modern" boats get there faster. Who cares? If the point were getting there faster you'd go on a power boat.

I look at marinas and see row after row of sailboats that will never race, but that are saddled with features of modern racing boats, which render them ugly and awkward without making them faster. Charter boat fleets are among the worst.

Recreational sailing is a broken industry, in need of a revolution.


* aka ungentlemanly behavior

[Paul Pless]

just give me the sparkman and stephens design catalog 1920 through 1970

design 1054 was no slouch, and a centerboarder to boot!

Finisterre-835x1024.jpg

[Peerie Maa]

Someone has been reading Tom Cunliff.

[George.]

30 years ago, yes...

[Garret]

Yes & no - it depends on the boat.

Daughter & S-I-L had a Catalina 22. Was it fancy or fast? Not at all, but they sailed that boat a ton - day sails & overnights until they had kids. He paid $8K for it, sailed it for 5 years & sold it for $6500. With roller furling on the jib & in-boom on the main, they could hop in the boat & be sailing in 5 minutes.

Going bigger - folks on a mooring near mine had an Island Packet 35 ft (or so). Very solid boat, no racer, but they cruised that boat all over the Maine coast & the rest of New England. It was very comfortable & reasonably roomy - but not cheap - though the resale value on them is really good. Something like this:

[Nicholas Scheuer]

For "modern" boats I like Nonesuch's offerings.

[Art Haberland]

I have to admit, I love the interior room on the big assed modern boats. If I was going to live on a sailboat, I would want one of the modern ones.

As for actually going out and sailing, I agree. Give me something from Alberg, Perry, Joel White, Colin Archer, Strange or any thing from Sparkman and Stevens. I love me some long keeled goodness.

My personal favourite boat (I know it is 'glass) is the Allied Seabreeze.

[Dan McCosh]

Olin Stephens himself addressed this in his autobiography. Not having sailed much on "modern" boats, I'm not a great source, but we did engage in a race last fall, and I was quite surprised that we lost ground on much of the course, and made it back on the upwind leg. One issue with modern designs, however, is the interior room generally is far superior to the old CCA designs. The narrow hulls and overhangs make for a dramatically smaller interior. As for boat speed, the issue is a hull that is light and wide can break through the hull-speed limitation of a "traditional" boat and achieve dramatically higher speed sailing off the wind with a large spinnaker pulling. When we hit 10 knots, we are done.

[George.]

I have to admit, I love the interior room on the big assed modern boats.

That's because they saw off the bow and stern, and make it too beamy all the way aft. If that is a virtue then just go all in and get a houseboat.

[Garret]

That's because they saw off the bow and stern, and make it too beamy all the way aft. If that is a virtue then just go all in and get a houseboat.

While this is true of many boats: Hunter, Beneteau, etc. - there are certainly sane designs out there.

[AndanteEd]

Yup, but in defence of the modern, beamier boats:

If you want the equivalent interior volume in a traditional hull then you need to increase the LOA. With the increased LOA comes extra weight, which in turn needs more power to push it.

To shift things ashore for a second, think Colin Chapman and Lotus (add lightness) vs Carroll Shelby (add horsepower). Both get you results, but in different ways. Going light requires engineering solutions, hence the carbon masts and more complicated rigging now appearing on cruiser/racers.

For many sailors, taking their boat out for a gentle afternoon's sail on a nice sunny day in 10 knots or so of wind is what its all about. Having a lightweight(ish) hull with lots of room for friends, a few bits of string to play with and a shortish LOA to keep marina fees down is ideal. For 90% of the sailing I do I'd take a modern boat over a traditional one.

As for the looks, I guess it's like owning the ugliest house on the street. So long as you are inside and looking out then you can admire the beauty all around you.

I greatly appreciate those of you who do persevere with traditional designs, it makes the view so much better!

[Ted Hoppe]

I think this is near perfect. Sparkman and Stephens used many of Gary Mull's CCA drafts in the early 60s. Mull drew this winning series for his shingle. There have been many who have taken from Mull to claim as their own including Ron Holland and few others.

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The Chico 30 and Ranger 33 as well as many others are derivatives of this hull shape. The cabin top and space increased for better cruising.

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[John Smith]

Sometimes cost is a factor. Long overhangs look nice, maybe improve some performance, but provide little usable space, but take up more room in the boatyard, which means more money to store.

It seems reasonable to me that if you're going to pay to store 35' of boat, that most of that 35', when the boat is used, should provide more useful space inside than the long overhang did.

My guess is this led to compromise; get more interior room in the same length, but lose as little sailing ability as possible/practical.

[WI-Tom]

for everything except racing "modern" boats to windward.*

A long keel, proper bow and stern overhangs, a low aspect ratio rig, proper shrouds, foresails smaller than the main - all make for far more comfort, enjoyment, safety, and ease of handling.

So "modern" boats get there faster. Who cares? If the point were getting there faster you'd go on a power boat.

I look at marinas and see row after row of sailboats that will never race, but that are saddled with features of modern racing boats, which render them ugly and awkward without making them faster. Charter boat fleets are among the worst.

Recreational sailing is a broken industry, in need of a revolution.


* aka ungentlemanly behavior

Some of us have been enjoying the revolution for decades...

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[Ted Hoppe]

Perhaps recreational sailboat racing is broken - sailing well in recreation is always in vogue.

[Dan McCosh]

The main reason for long overhangs is that it looks cool. It's also a way of cheating on waterline-based race ratings.

[Norman Bernstein]

I have a great appreciation of classic boat designs....

...but as a cruiser for 33 years, I feel no shame in expressing my preference for modern boats. If you're going to spend a month or more on a boat during an extended cruise, then comfort is, to me at least, a key consideration. My final boat, a Jeanneau 43DS, was supremely comfortable, and had all the modern conveniences that made our trips more like living, than camping. The queen-sized aft berth and cabin was a true bedroom... the v-berth was big enough to not ever feel cramped. We had lots of water storage for luxurious showers, a countertop icemaker for cold drinks, and a dual HVAC system for those dog days when all we wanted was to find a slip, plug in, and sleep in the cool, dry cabin.

And even despite the full beam aft, the boat sailed well, with a 135% roller-furled genoa, and an in-mast main. A great Raymarine autopilot relieved the tedium of steering on long legs, and an electric winch made rolling up the sails nearly effortless. A full dodger and bimini, with home-made side curtains, meant we could sit in the cockpit on rainy days without getting wet.

I've had the experience of sailing a lot more primitively, on schooners, for a week at a time, and while I was very young and adventurous, it was a lot of fun... but going for a week without a decent shower, and feeling damp all the time, was an experience I didn't care to repeat on my own boat

[John B]

There's plenty of good modern boats out there perfectly fit for purpose, countless.
That purpose might be as a coastal cruiser, anchor every night, but there are plenty of modern offshore boats too. I was on a Halberg Rassey 45 last week, a buddy flew over from Seattle to buy it...Fantastic thing. Anchored with an Ovni 3 days ago, go anywhere boat. I was aboard a 2016 Hanse a few weeks ago, an ideal short handed coastal boat but I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than go to sea in it. Still... fit for its purpose.
We cruise all summer with 70's , 80's and 90's boats, all with enviable history of sea miles and a nice performance /accomodation blend.

[Garret]

Norm - it's not all damp & gloomy on an older boat. Mine has hot & cold water, a shower, a TV that hardly ever gets watched, heat, & used to have air, but I took it out to get more storage space.

However - and it's a big one - my 52' boat has less living space than your Jeanneau. Still lots of comfort for a couple or 4 - but a skinny boat with long overhangs means less interior space.

So - an old boat can be very comfortable, but a new boat doesn't have to be a pig as George seems to think.

[George.]

comfort is, to me at least, a key consideration.

Me too...

The comfort of lying at anchor with barely a sway while nearby modern boats rock and roll and toss about...

The comfort of setting down a fluted glass of wine on deck while sailing and have it stay put for the next sip, while nearby modern boats entire lunches are being chucked overboard...

The comfort of beating without being strafed with salt spray...

[mizzenman]

Modern transoms are great for swiming, or keeping an eye on a couple of kids playing in the water

[lupussonic]

Race cars, race motorbike, race dogs, race horses etc. They all do one thing well.

Your complaint is that one trick ponies only know one trick.

[Garret]

One question: If classic boats are so much better, how come mfr's aren't making them any more?

[Peerie Maa]

One question: If classic boats are so much better, how come mfr's aren't making them any more?

Like Powell?

It is easier to sell some barge arsed hull with a big dinette and galley to the wife of the yellow welly customer, who fancied himself as a wannabe crack racing helmsman.

[Garret]

We need to start selling Model As & Ts too. I'm not a fan of many modern boats, but there have been significant improvements.

[David W Pratt]

S&S boats, at least a lot of them, seem to be deep drafted. For cruising, I would like about 5'. As to slow, a cruising boat, unhindered by racing rules can have a powerful rig, with ample reefs, and maintain a good proportion of hull speed in a wide range of wind strengths. With adequate ballast, there is no need for the crew to sit on the rail.

[Rich Jones]

just give me the sparkman and stephens design catalog 1920 through 1970

design 1054 was no slouch, and a centerboarder to boot!

Finisterre-835x1024.jpg

Finisterre. I fell in love with that boat when I was a kid. I still consider it an example of the
perfect classic boat.

[bamamick]

Let me tell you 'broken' sailboat racing is in the United States: the geniuses at USSA, just after the entire leadership group involved with the Olympic Games (Paul Cayard, Jon McKee, Luther Carpenter, etc.) resigned, I mean a couple of days after that, announced that this year's Championship of Champions regatta would be held in.......radio controlled yachts. Bloody pond yachts.

Seriously.

Mickey Lake

[bamamick]

....but....as far as the assertion that the older designs are superior, as a long time Star/Dragon sailor with a deep and abiding love for long overhangs, obviously I agree, but I understand the need to evolve. Was it 'Intrepid' that Olin Stephens talked about how said it was that the design changes that'd been realized between the first 'modern' 12 and the older boats didn't result in a great leap in speed or overall performance? It was either 'Intrepid' or the eight-metre 'Iroquois'. Still, those two boats and so many others, even much older -metre, square metre, and other such designs are out there every weekend during the summer months, bashing away at one another.

The vast majority of 12 metre yachts ever built are still floating, some of them 80, 90 years on. I have had the supreme honour of crewing on the magnificent Stephens-designed six, 'Goose' (twice!). She was built in the 1930's and looks just as beautiful today as she ever did. There is very little possibility of any of today's racing boat surviving for 85 years the way that 'Goose' has. They are built to be sailed and thrown away. And though most of them of an equal size would sail rings around any of the boats of the long overhang era, the fact that the old boats will outlive the newer ones by far, at least to me, gives them the edge.

[Peerie Maa]

I think that everyone has drifted away from Gorge's op argument.
Long keeled boats with moderate or no overhangs look after the crew. If the crew get tired, they can be hove too and let the crew rest.
12m and other racing derivatives with short keels, whether the rudder is keel hung or on a skeg have to be sailed every inch of the way, by crew or by auto helm. They do not look after the crew, the crew has to look after them, and hence gets little real rest.

[bamamick]

I think that everyone has drifted away from Gorge's op argument.
Long keeled boats with moderate or no overhangs look after the crew. If the crew get tired, they can be hove too and let the crew rest.
12m and other racing derivatives with short keels, whether the rudder is keel hung or on a skeg have to be sailed every inch of the way, by crew or by auto helm. They do not look after the crew, the crew has to look after them, and hence gets little real rest.

Yep.

Mickey Lake