Philip Bolger design Martha Jane?

[Johan R]

MJ 2.jpgMJ Bolger 1.jpg

Same boat or owner modified on right? Only seems to be one example with this cabin that i can find.

[Johan R]

I make the assumption that this design is pretty much as unknown as the designer then? I had not heard the name till last week.

Turns out it is a modified version by the designer to gain righting ability, though the extended aft sponsons look a bit odd. Still, it would work well in the marshes and canals of the Carmargue better than many conventional types.

[Paul Pless]

phil bolger unknown?

[SKIP KILPATRICK]

phil bolger unknown?

Bah! hahahahaha!

[SKIP KILPATRICK]

Who is this leonardo da vinci of whom you speak?

[Mike.Higgins.94301]

Who is this leonardo da vinci of whom you speak?

Wellllll, maybe that’s an overstatement.

[SKIP KILPATRICK]

hahaha just a bit!

[Johan R]

phil bolger unknown?

A deduction based on 153 views with no comment. If you knew the designer or the boat in question, it would have been help full to say so, or not, its all voluntary.

[WI-Tom]

A deduction based on 153 views with no comment. If you knew the designer or the boat in question, it would have been help full to say so, or not, its all voluntary.

It does seem funny to those in the U.S. especially to think that someone might consider Phil Bolger an "unknown" designer--I think that's what you're seeing here. He drew hundreds of designs and wrote lots of books and articles. He is famous for two things around here:

1. Simple cheap designs for amateur construction--he was instrumental in getting newbies into backyard boatbuilding with cheap simple designs.
2. A mind bent on exploring many many different approaches to boat design--some of them great, some questionable, but all original.
3. (Yes, I guess there's a #3): Box boats--flat bottom, single chine, with no flare whatsoever. And they often perform shockingly well. And are dead cheap and simple.

Some love Bolger, some seem to hate his work. Jim Michalak's designs have picked up on lots of Bolger's ideas. Many other designers know and have been influenced by Bolger.

I've never seen a Martha Jane anything like the photo on the right. Looks like a very different cabin at least, if not a completely different hull. I did get to sail with a Martha Jane in the Texas 200 a couple of years, and it was a very good performer from what I saw. I think the guy sailing it really knew what he was doing, leeboards and all.

[Johan R]

[QUOTE=WI-Tom;6816843]

It does seem funny to those in the U.S. especially to think that someone might consider Phil Bolger an "unknown" designer--I think that's what you're seeing here.

I had not heard the name till you mentioned he was the designer of the "micro", and not the French micro-cupper class boat I assumed another poster was referring to. There is a whole rich tapestry of yacht design outside of the US, which i am more familiar with, but no expert or even well informed.

I've never seen a Martha Jane anything like the photo on the right. Looks like a very different cabin at least, if not a completely different hull. I did get to sail with a Martha Jane in the Texas 200 a couple of years, and it was a very good performer from what I saw. I think the guy sailing it really knew what he was doing, leeboards and all.

That particular boat came up in a youtube search.

Bolger Martha Jane sail test run - YouTube

It didnt look like any of the boats that the web returned for "Martha Jane", hence the query. Thank you for the clarification.

[Dave Wright]

The builder modified his "Martha Jane" after the designer, Phil Bolger, came out with revised plans for the larger cabin version. The builder discusses this and attaches photos here:

https://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/

[Johan R]

[QUOTE=Dave Wright;6816888]The builder modified his "Martha Jane" after the designer, Phil Bolger, came out with revised plans for the larger cabin version. The builder discusses this and attaches photos here:/QUOTE]


Helpful, thank you. I did discover, via Wiki, that Mr Bolger took his own life, but plans for Martha Jane are being advertised for sale by "common sense boats", though not it seems the "revised addition".

I am still working my way through what i can find of his work, its very broad.

[John Meachen]

Interesting that some find it amusing that Phil Bolger is unknown in some quarters.How many of that group have ever heard of Jack Holt?Not quite as prolific as Mr B but I would guess that there are several times as many of his boats in existence.

[Dave Wright]

[QUOTE=Johan R;6816910]

The builder modified his "Martha Jane" after the designer, Phil Bolger, came out with revised plans for the larger cabin version. The builder discusses this and attaches photos here:/QUOTE]


Helpful, thank you. I did discover, via Wiki, that Mr Bolger took his own life, but plans for Martha Jane are being advertised for sale by "common sense boats", though not it seems the "revised addition".

I am still working my way through what i can find of his work, its very broad.

He has written a number of books. The best one, and easiest to obtain is:

Boats with an Open Mind: Seventy-Five Unconventional Designs and Concepts, Paperback – September 22, 1994

I see Amazon has a few dozen used copies starting at $2.52. Don't pay high prices.

[Dave Hadfield]

Johan,

Phil Bolger is extremely well known within this tiny sub-set of nautical human life.

Everyone here would recommend you study him. Some of his designs are shocking now, as they were then, but they all make sense -- and are somewhat liberating once you get past the weirdness.

I built one of his designs, an Elegant Punt, which was excellent but too small, so I stole his philosophy and designed a larger dinghy which I would never trade.

Then went on to design and build several flat-bottomed rockered canoes, which work much better that expected.

Lots to learn.

Dave

[Paul Pless]

Everyone here would recommend you study him.

everyone but for james mcmullen

[WI-Tom]

Interesting that some find it amusing that Phil Bolger is unknown in some quarters.How many of that group have ever heard of Jack Holt?Not quite as prolific as Mr B but I would guess that there are several times as many of his boats in existence.

Good point. I know Jack Holt only because of the Mirror dinghy. I am woefully ignorant of designers outside the U.S. Other than Francois Vivier, I might not know any at all. But I can see why, in a U.S.-based platform with a large U.S. audience, ignorance of Phil Bolger might strike some as amusing. The same might happen if I posted on the DCA about "What's this weird Wayfarer design? I've never heard of it."

But I don't think you get the full picture if with the "how many boats are in existence" comparison. Bolger drew lots of designs specifically for amateur, one-off construction. My sense (uninformed as it is) is that designers outside the U.S. are often creating designs intended for production boat status. The only Bolger designs I know that were adapted to production boat status was the Dovekie. So of course there won't be as many boats built--and it would be very difficult to track how many were built.

Tom

[Johan R]

But I don't think you get the full picture if with the "how many boats are in existence" comparison. Bolger drew lots of designs specifically for amateur, one-off construction. My sense (uninformed as it is) is that designers outside the U.S. are often creating designs intended for production boat status.

Tom

Far from accurate, with respect. There was Robert Tucker from England who was drawing plans for plywood home construction from the 50s, Maurice Griffiths and the "Yachting Monthly" sponsored designs like the Eventide, James Wharram and his catamarans, JJ Herbulot in France was doing likewise. Some of their designs may have made it into production later when GRP became a cheap way to build, but many of their designs were specifically drawn for home builders.

I have seen plywood boat designs from France and England for sale in countries on the other side of the planet. Tuckers Caprice was 18ft and was sailed around the world at least twice by Shane Acton. What i have not seen is any home build US designs popping up in Europe.

Certainly a box/square boat like Martha Jane might not be happy in a short chop of the North Sea unless sailed at a great angle, but it would certainly work in the protected waters of the Baltic and other such places.

I did find the "Swedish Cruiser", a lee board cat ketch of 40ft with shallow draft, not my thing, I wonder if it was ever completed.

I will follow up on the book links, thank you.

[Johan R]

.How many of that group have ever heard of Jack Holt?Not quite as prolific as Mr B but I would guess that there are several times as many of his boats in existence.

I would say many people would recognize the small pram dinghy with gunter rig and red sails, without knowing it was Jack Holt who designed it. I used one for 6 weeks in Dalsland camp cruising. Would not want to car top a dinghy that size again, but better than leaving a trailer unattended in a remote spot for 6 weeks.

[WI-Tom]

Far from accurate, with respect. There was Robert Tucker from England who was drawing plans for plywood home construction from the 50s, Maurice Griffiths and the "Yachting Monthly" sponsored designs like the Eventide, James Wharram and his catamarans, JJ Herbulot in France was doing likewise. Some of their designs may have made it into production later when GRP became a cheap way to build, but many of their designs were specifically drawn for home builders.

That's more than fair--I did mention I was relatively uninformed. But very few designs in the U.S. for backyard boats get picked up as production boats, and perhaps European/Australian designs have that happen more frequently?

Other than the Bolger Dovekie, and more recently John Welsford's Scamp, I can't think of other amateur designs that have gone on to production status.

So, it's hardly fair to say "More of Jack Holt's designs get built than Bolger's" if one is designing production boats and the other is designing for home builders, eh?

Tom

[Johan R]

So, it's hardly fair to say "More of Jack Holt's designs get built than Bolger's" if one is designing production boats and the other is designing for home builders, eh?

Tom

Except, none of the above designers mentioned specifically drew those designs for "production". They were all "home build" designs, but some where later picked up by builders and made in GRP, Tuckers Caprice and Silhouette, Griffiths "Golden Hind", Herbulots "Corsaire" and "Armagnac".

The only production about the Mirror was it was sold in kits, purposely for people who could not source materials. The one i borrowed was over 30 years old and held together with polyester resin tapes.

Does that mean US designed boats designed for home builders are too simplistic to be picked up by production builders, or are you suggesting that the average US homebuilder does not have the skills to build something more complex? Was not the "Thunderbird" a home built boat that was produced by several builders in California? Only aware of that as it has been described as a French Muscadet copy.

Which "home build" designer can claim to have the most travelled design? I read at one time the "Golden Hind" has the record of 31 Atlantic crossings, more than any other class, at that time. Obviously more Bennys and Jennys cross the Atlantic each year to become charter boats, but they are production.

[Johan R]

Pretty, for a square boat. Long Micro.

[Johan R]

I am seeing the same pattern here. Old shoe, Micro, Long Micro, AS29 and Loose Moose. Just bigger versions of the same thing.

[WI-Tom]

Except, none of the above designers mentioned specifically drew those designs for "production". They were all "home build" designs, but some where later picked up by builders and made in GRP, Tuckers Caprice and Silhouette, Griffiths "Golden Hind", Herbulots "Corsaire" and "Armagnac".

The only production about the Mirror was it was sold in kits, purposely for people who could not source materials. The one i borrowed was over 30 years old and held together with polyester resin tapes.

Does that mean US designed boats designed for home builders are too simplistic to be picked up by production builders, or are you suggesting that the average US homebuilder does not have the skills to build something more complex? Was not the "Thunderbird" a home built boat that was produced by several builders in California? Only aware of that as it has been described as a French Muscadet copy.

Which "home build" designer can claim to have the most travelled design? I read at one time the "Golden Hind" has the record of 31 Atlantic crossings, more than any other class, at that time. Obviously more Bennys and Jennys cross the Atlantic each year to become charter boats, but they are production.

No, I'm not suggesting any of that.

I meant to suggest that sailing is a much bigger market outside the U.S. Here, "sailing" often means around-the-buoys club racing, or daysailing Lasers and Sunfish and Hobie cats, and not much else. There is no market for cruising boats--small boats mostly, I mean--while in the UK and (I suspect without really knowing) Australia, there is a market for dinghy cruising as well.

So, my hypothesis is that however the design starts out, it is much more likely to become a production boat in the UK than in the U.S. So, you can't really compare the influence of a designer just on how many hulls were built, as a boat that becomes a production boat will have many more hulls afloat.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

I am seeing the same pattern here. Old shoe, Micro, Long Micro, AS29 and Loose Moose. Just bigger versions of the same thing.

Sure. Many designers do that kind of thing to broaden their catalog.

But Bolger's design work is amazingly diverse. He did far more than his box boats. His Harbinger catboat is a curvy beauty, for example. And he was not shy about experimenting with unusual rigs and boats.

Tom

[Johan R]

Not so boxy.

[Johan R]

So this is interesting. Its like a French Misainer. But why oh why the portlight in the sheer? St Valery. Not a box either.

[WI-Tom]

Not so boxy.

Yes, although the original is a hard-chine design. Lots of people prefer the chines. I like the lapstrake Chebacco. I really really like it.

Tom

[Johan R]

Kind of offensive from this angle.

[Johan R]

Chebbacco with a house like Martha Jane..

[Johan R]

Yes, not offensive at all. Nothing wrong with well placed chines.

[Johan R]

No, I'm not suggesting any of that.

I meant to suggest that sailing is a much bigger market outside the U.S. Here, "sailing" often means around-the-buoys club racing, or daysailing Lasers and Sunfish and Hobie cats, and not much else. There is no market for cruising boats--small boats mostly, I mean--while in the UK and (I suspect without really knowing) Australia, there is a market for dinghy cruising as well.

I do not follow. The marine trade in the US is massive. I do not know of another nation that had so many boats built in the Far East and shipped back to the mainland. To say "there is no market for cruising boats", does not tally with reality, off the top of my head , Bob Perry.

[Johan R]

Lots of variation on the same hull.

[Andrew2]

Pretty, for a square boat. Long Micro.

Nope, that is the standard 15ft4" but with a slightly raised cabin. I have one nearly finished in my shed, but a bit longer (and sharper)at the bow.
A2

[WI-Tom]

I do not follow. The marine trade in the US is massive. I do not know of another nation that had so many boats built in the Far East and shipped back to the mainland. To say "there is no market for cruising boats", does not tally with reality, off the top of my head , Bob Perry.

Did you miss that I mentioned small boats and dingy cruising specifically?

Name a boat design for dinghy cruising marketed to amateur home builders in the U.S. that went on to become a production boat.

Gig Harbor does a production Scamp. And a Melonseed, but I don't think that was adapted from an amateur home builder-oriented design.

We simply don't have the market that the UK, for example, does. And so we have nowhere near the number of production boats in the small boat/dinghy cruiser category. And virtually none based on traditional designs, I think. Does that tally with your reality now?

I take a very limited view, as most of my knowledge and almost all of my interest lies in small boats specifically. I'm not trying to make any sweeping claims about yacht designers.

Now, I may be wrong. I don't claim to be an expert. But I'm feeling like I haven't made my point clearly enough for you to understand what I'm trying to say. Maybe this post will help.

Tom