Ameture boat building can be hard on a person. I cut oak frames wrong. AHHH !

[Mackey]

Hello Everyone,
The frames were to be cut to 7/8 x 3/4 and then finished to 3/4 x 5/8, with the grain running the right direction. If I use them the way they are cut now, is it likely they will not stay together when I steam them and try to bend them even though the grain is running wrong? Is there anyway to use these frames at all or should I just plan on starting over ? If I use them with grain running in the right direction the width of the frames will be 5/8 instead of 3/4. I'm wondering if they would be wide enough to take the #8 screw that is required without splitting the wood. I also wonder if the 1/8 less in width would make the frames look to skinny for the boat. Everything inside the hull is going to be painted, but I don't want it to look wrong and I want to make sure it will be structurally sound.

P.S. I'm building Richard Kohlins 14 foot Whitehall.

Thx. for any advice, Mac

[jpatrick]

It is not clear to me what you mean by right and wrong directions.

Jeff

[Mackey]

Hi Jeff,
The diagram I have from the designer is the grain is suppose to be horizontal to boat, the way I cut it the grain would be vertical to the boat. Opposite the way he showed it should be. Does that help ?

[Johan R]

Hi Jeff,
The diagram I have from the designer is the grain is suppose to be horizontal to boat, the way I cut it the grain would be vertical to the boat. Opposite the way he showed it should be. Does that help ?

I would have thought horizontal grain is more likely to split when bent , especially if a fastener is put through it. Bent timbers in the last Folkboat i was inside had vertical grain. The diagram you have is most likely showing a cross section showing the grain facing fore and aft, but the timber itself is cut "long grain".

[Kunzwerks]

Without a picture, I assume you are referring to the grain orientation on the end of the 3/4” by 5/8” frame strip. I personally don’t believe you would have a problem steam bending them in either orientation. If it were me, I would steam bend one frame (do the one with the tightest bend) and see how it works out, even with the grain running opposite to what the plans show.

[Thad]

You have a choice with those pieces. Try bending as cut to the planned dimensions, if it works you will be fine. Or, bend them with the grain as prescribed, assuming that means molded 5/8, sided 3/4. This might mean using shorter screws if using screws, otherwise, no problem.

[Mackey]

Hi Jeff, thanks for your response. Imagine looking at the butt end of the frame, ( it is a rectangle )
The rectangle would measure 5/8 in height and 3/4 in width. The 3/4 width lays flat against the plank.The grain pattern is suppose to run horizontal like you said, from aft to bow. For clarity, i have the grain running opposite of what he wanted. I have the frames cut so the grain is running from the bildge to the sheer. Hope that helps.

[Thad]

OK. Then, you might mill them to 5/8 square and proceed, that might mean you'd want to space them a little tighter together but probably not an issue. Square, they will be easier to land flush to the planking.

[Johan R]

I might be confused myself, but im guessing the diagram is showing "annular rings", i do not know if their is marine nomenclature to differentiate between grain and annular rings?

[John Meachen]

If you give them a dose of steam,there is every chance they will work.The dimensions aren't that far off square and if you are using screws then you will need to drill a correctly sized pilot hole.It might be worth a bit of experimenting to determine what that hole diameter might need to be and you may have an offcut on hand.It it eases your mind,remember that it used to be normal for logs to be cleft perpendicular to the growth rings.

[Mackey]

Having such limited experience with wood I would not be able to tell you for sure the difference between annular and grain direction. I could guess but still be wrong. All of you have given me great hope all is not lost. Green oak is hard to find and not cheap. I am going to give it a shot with the stock I have. I guess trying a few of the frames out in the steamer and then bending them will tell me a lot. Or as mentioned, try just squaring them off. As an amateur, it is so frustrating to make so many mistakes, especially when it took so long to get to a very critical point in the build, and make such a simple but critical mistake. The forum has been very helpful. Thx. Mac

[willin woodworks]

Give it a try. Lots of steam, dont be in a hurry.

[Mackey]

I have to try, that’s for sure. Out of curiosity, it seems oak is the standard for frames, but are there other woods that steam and bend well, plus give structural stability ?

[Woxbox]

I'm betting they'll work just fine as you cut them. As far as steaming wood, it's more about getting your hands on relatively fresh cut wood that hasn't been kiln dried. Even oak, when kiln dried, isn't agreeable to steam bending. Ash works well, too. And with oak, you do want white oak. Red oak is not a good choice for boats -- especially a traditional boat to be varnished.

Good luck with the project. It looks like a very nice design.

[nedL]

Good bending stock won’t care which direction the grain is in a Whitehall.

as mentioned, ash bends well, but is low in rot resistance. Hickory can bend well, as can locust as I understand.

[John Meachen]

I found it fascinating to learn from Richard Jagels' recent article on steam bending that heating the steam above 100 deg C can make them more brittle.I've sometimes wondered if our hosts in Brooklin have considered publishing a compendium of these columns as there is a tremendous volume of knowledge in them.

[nedL]

I found it fascinating to learn from Richard Jagels' recent article on steam bending that heating the steam above 100 deg C can make them more brittle.I've sometimes wondered if our hosts in Brooklin have considered publishing a compendium of these columns as there is a tremendous volume of knowledge in them.

Steaming wood is not done under pressure, so how would you accomplish steam above 212 (100 c)?

[Woxbox]

Good question. Somewhere I learned that 185F-190F is the sweet spot, and it doesn't pay to cook the wood hotter than that.

[Mackey]

Thanks for the additional advice. Mac

[John Meachen]

Steaming wood is not done under pressure, so how would you accomplish steam above 212 (100 c)?

Around a boat,I wouldn't expect to need hotter steam and indeed Dr Jagels article demonstrated that it isn't necessary.If I needed hotter steam for some other purpose I don't suppose it would be too difficult to rig up a feed pipe with a blowlamp or some other heat source playing on it,so that hotter steam emerged at the other end.