ACAB—or not. An opinion survey.

[Jim Mahan]

Inspired by Curtis' thread, and to not hijack that. Some thoughts.

They are not good cops until they bust/ turn in a few of those very (cough)few.
There are even fewer of them .

It might be an interesting sociology study to try to determine the actual ratio of good v bad, in the context of current events. We don't ever hear stories of good cops, and we can only assume otherwise that the bad ones are only a few. My Wife thinks I'm silly for thinking that the TV show called The Rookie, which we've been watching, isn't a public relations vehicle to promote the idea of the mythical good cop.

The reason it is likely that ACAB is more true than we'd like to think, is that there is plenty of evidence that the cops on forces all across the country self-identify as a brotherhood. They get actual training in the things that we civilians would consider bad cop behavior. Like being trained to join fellow cops on scene, and unload an entire magazine from a handgun when some one of them determines the person involved is a perp and a suspect and is doing something like resisting or evading. People who get on a force and see that, are maybe as likely to join in as to be revolted and quit for a job in some other field. Self-selected bullies with all sorts of daily reinforcement as to their privilege to unleash force on strangers at the drop of a hat.

Which is why my recommendation would be not just some form of 'defunding' or changing the workload of cops such that other types of social workers can answer some of their current work load. I think what we need is a total revamping of the cop system, a re-working of police training and equipping, and I also think a nation-wide, force by force, precinct by precinct purge of current cops. Reinvent policing and hire completely new, non-brotherhood indoctrinated people to be the bulk of the new cop forces, everywhere.

Make the new cop wear some other kind of uniform than black, and military looking. Make them use, like Barney Fife, side-arms with a single bullet. Make them need to rely on the taser or some other non-lethal instrument. Make them ride with a non-uniformed sociology trained person who is unarmed but has seniority in a given situation. Make every allegation of police abuse of power be investigated by non-professional non-LEO civilians. And make every cop who is found to have abused the authority of force be immediately fired and subject to criminal prosecution. Every time.

Even if ACA are not B, it is a prevalent meme and POV in our society, and the feeling the communities have isn't arbitrary or unearned.

[McMike]

There are no good cops when there are bad cops. Other cops are the only conduit of proper accountability.

You bring up some other topics.

First; if a cop or civilian is 100% justified in using their firearm, you bet your a55 that unloading your mag is prudent. One shot guns are a bad idea. We are an armed society whether we like it or not, cops need to be able to match that.

You're right, we need to rethink policing in a revolutionary way and you have some good ideas.

I will suggest that a cop that is found to have broken the law should be subjected to four times the penalty as a civilian.

[Paul Pless]

I will suggest that a cop that is found to have broken the law should be subjected to four times the penalty as a civilian.

i will suggest that all law enforcement agencies be subject to rigorous civilian over-site; not over-site overseen by their peers, internal affairs, the district atty, or a state law enforcement agency; and certainly not overseen by a board of current or even former members of law enforcement

[Garret]

Years ago I had a very high opinion of Vermont State Troopers. Polite, considerate, and careful. They really seemed to get the protect & serve thing.

Now? Not so much. Priority 1 is speeding tickets & all else falls by the wayside. I had 6K worth of tools & such stolen & they wouldn't even come look. 3 troopers & their wives just got caught playing some online game that is unbelievably racist, as were their comments while playing. Others have been busted for stealing drugs from evidence, etc. etc. A friend was an instructor at their academy for many years & he quit in disgust with the caliber of new hires. His biggest issue was that most were ex-military & had the whole shaved sides of the head, buzzcut on top, "why can't I have a bigger gun?" attitude. His last straw was one day when he said that guns are a last resort for a trooper & the entire class laughed.

Having spent many years in my yoot hitch-hiking across the country, I must say that 99% of the cops I dealt with were jerks. A couple that were OK, but the vast majority were on power trips.

[Garret]

i will suggest that all law enforcement agencies be subject to rigorous civilian oversight; not overseen by their peers, internal affairs, the district atty, or a state law enforcement agency; and certainly not overseen by a board of current or even former members of law enforcement

Good idea.

[WI-Tom]

There are no good cops when there are bad cops. Other cops are the only conduit of proper accountability.

You bring up some other topics.

First; if a cop or civilian is 100% justified in using their firearm, you bet your a55 that unloading your mag is prudent. One shot guns are a bad idea. We are an armed society whether we like it or not, cops need to be able to match that.

That's an assumption that I don't think is warranted. If criminals know cops are not armed, and also know that shooting a cop carries a heavy penalty, the incentive to shoot cops is removed or greatly reduced.

Keep clinging to fear-based thinking and nothing will change. It may well be that if we make sure cops are not a (lethal) threat, they're not going to be targets either.

Tom

[McMike]

That's an assumption that I don't think is warranted. If criminals know cops are not armed, and also know that shooting a cop carries a heavy penalty, the incentive to shoot cops is removed or greatly reduced.

Keep clinging to fear-based thinking and nothing will change. It may well be that if we make sure cops are not a (lethal) threat, they're not going to be targets either.

Tom

I don't know, you make a good point that I, however, think needs some validation. I think you need to consider that the 2nd isn't going anywhere and people are people. The truth being that evil exists, violence exists.

Stop accusing me of fear-based thinking. It's not true, it's not productive, and you put at risk my positive opinion of you. If I were fearful, I'd carry. I don't.

[McMike]

i will suggest that all law enforcement agencies be subject to rigorous civilian over-site; not over-site overseen by their peers, internal affairs, the district atty, or a state law enforcement agency; and certainly not overseen by a board of current or even former members of law enforcement

In theory that works, but only cops see what other cops are doing. Then, when you introduce a civilian to the mix, riding along, responding to the same calls, you risk the "civilian" being tainted by the bad cops just as easily as other cops would be. How do you envision it working?

[Jim Mahan]

Just yesterday I was BSing with my neighbor and the turn of conversation brought up a memory of when I was thirty-something living in Grants Pass, OR. I had had a fight with my then wife, just yelling and ugly words, nothing physical, but I got wound up, so I jumped in my car to go for a ride to cool off. Went and bought a pack of smokes, after having been quit for a year. This was before I had my diagnosis of bipolar. On the way back to the house, barely cooled off, I was being a bit lead-footed, and saw the blinking red lights in the rear-view. I'd been doing forty-five in a residential twenty-five zone. Fck, just what I need. I'm pounding the steering wheel with frustration over yet more shirt to deal with.

I had just rolled the window down when the cop walked up and he asked me, instead of 'do you know why I pulled you over?' or 'do you know how fast you were going?' he asked me 'are you having some kind of problem?' And before I could manage to gather up my restraint, I looked him in the eye and blurted, with an attitude, 'are you having a problem?'

Not thinking, obviously, not cooled off, obviously. Of course the cop had no idea of any of why I was wound up, but without any hesitation, he took a half step back and put his hand on the butt of his side-arm.

In that half second, I managed to get it together enough to realize what might be next and before he could say 'step out of the vehicle,' I launched into a desperate plea to beg forgiveness for being rash and explained about the fight with the wife. And I told him I was on my way home and that I lived just up the block... And he let me go with a warning. It's exactly the kind of thing that might get me tossed in the slammer one day.

[Dave Wright]

...If criminals know cops are not armed, and also know that shooting a cop carries a heavy penalty, the incentive to shoot cops is removed or greatly reduced...

Tom

Currently criminals know that almost all of their targets are not armed, and also know that shooting anyone carries a heavy penalty, yet the shootings continue.

[sp_clark]

Currently criminals know that almost all of their targets are not armed, and also know that shooting anyone carries a heavy penalty, yet the shootings continue.

Glad I read to the last post here... you beat me to what I was just about to point out.

Shooting anyone ought to carry a heavy penalty if done in anything but self-defense. Current problem being penalties aren't being enforced much.

[Gerarddm]

Statistics show that policing is not the most dangerous occupation in the US, despite all the 'thin blue line' hooh-hah.

Over-militarization of cops, AND THE ATTITUDE IT ENGENDERS, is, in my view, one of the primary drivers of bad cops today. In the past it was probably simple corruption.

Someone once noted that if a good cop knows about a bad cop and does or says nothing, then the good cop a priori is bad too.

[Jim Bow]

In the UK, where very few cops are armed, very few cops get shot.
In the US, where some say there are 3 times as many guns as there are people, cops get shot.

[WI-Tom]

In the UK, where very few cops are armed, very few cops get shot.
In the US, where some say there are 3 times as many guns as there are people, and the cops have guns and everybody knows they use them to kill people routinely, cops get shot.

If you're a criminal with a gun facing a cop with a gun, what's your incentive to shoot him or her? Lots of disincentives. Might have to shift cop mentality from "get the bad guy" to "do the sensible thing even if it means letting a criminal get away. For now."

Tom

[WI-Tom]

Currently criminals know that almost all of their targets are not armed, and also know that shooting anyone carries a heavy penalty, yet the shootings continue.

Almost all of their targets are not armed? Really? Got any actual evidence to back up that claim?

Tom

[WI-Tom]

I don't know, you make a good point that I, however, think needs some validation. I think you need to consider that the 2nd isn't going anywhere and people are people. The truth being that evil exists, violence exists.

Stop accusing me of fear-based thinking. It's not true, it's not productive, and you put at risk my positive opinion of you. If I were fearful, I'd carry. I don't.

My apologies, Mike--the "fear-based thinking" comment wasn't aimed at you, though I can see it reads that way. What I meant was, police are trained to be fearful. To act as if everyone and every situation is a potentially lethal threat to their safety. And so, guns and more guns. And suspects, perpetrators, innocent people at traffic stops--they get shot and killed. From fear.

If that doesn't change, cops killing people won't change.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

Statistics show that policing is not the most dangerous occupation in the US, despite all the 'thin blue line' hooh-hah.

Over-militarization of cops, AND THE ATTITUDE IT ENGENDERS, is, in my view, one of the primary drivers of bad cops today.

Yep. For sure.

When things go bad with a cop, it seems to often come from the cop demanding instant compliance with any order they give, even when there is no apparent threat when a person does not comply. They are trained to "control the situation" and that can go bad very quickly if cops don't take de-escalation seriously.

Tom

[Chip-skiff]

Thank the 2nd Amendment Republicans for ensuring that criminals are heavily armed, in some cases with military-type weapons, and that the arms pipeline to Mexico and the drug cartels is kept wide open.

Lots of money skimmed off for campaign contributions.

[skuthorp]

I am minded of "As ye sow so shall ye reap" and there's been 200 years of sowing. And it's not slowing down.

[David G]

i will suggest that all law enforcement agencies be subject to rigorous civilian over-site; not over-site overseen by their peers, internal affairs, the district atty, or a state law enforcement agency; and certainly not overseen by a board of current or even former members of law enforcement

Ayup.

'All' cops are bad? Nope. What is true, though, is that the whole cop culture has become tainted... even toxic. Others have pointed out some of the ways this is so. And even the cops I know who I regard as good folks say the same thing.

It cries out for civilian oversight to get things back on track.

[McMike]

My apologies, Mike--the "fear-based thinking" comment wasn't aimed at you, though I can see it reads that way. What I meant was, police are trained to be fearful. To act as if everyone and every situation is a potentially lethal threat to their safety. And so, guns and more guns. And suspects, perpetrators, innocent people at traffic stops--they get shot and killed. From fear.

If that doesn't change, cops killing people won't change.

Tom

Fair enough, sorry for the misunderstanding.

It only takes on bad interaction, as a cop, to make a human being become fearful. You're not going to change human nature and cops are human. I'm not defending bad cops by a long shot but in the end, if I'm in a situation where I feel threatened, I will feel threatened in future, like situations.

Training needs to change, expectations need to change, and accountability needs to happen. These things will help but the fact remains, cops do get exposed to evil all the time and that changes a person.

[Canoeyawl]

Years ago I had a very high opinion of Vermont State Troopers. Polite, considerate, and careful. They really seemed to get the protect & serve thing.

Now? Not so much...

I had an uncle not without significant property or influence in Vermont and I inadvertently became snowbound at his place for a few days.
He (the uncle) had a police scanner running in the background 24/7 which I could not really hear. We were dissecting a 1917 Army revolver on the card table when of a sudden he jumped out of his fireside chair, turned up the radio on the mantle and yelled "Yeah! - Get that n----r"
What?
It turns out the troopers were following a black man on the highway and planning to box him in at the next exit. The language on the police radio was as offensive as I have ever heard.
It was 10° below freezing, I kept my mouth shut but decided on no return visits... He is dead now, but left his entire estate (8 figures plus real estate) to the eldest son, with the daughters getting not a dime. I established he might present a condensed version of 'conservative' and 'liberal'

[David W Pratt]

Almost all of their targets are not armed? Really? Got any actual evidence to back up that claim?

Tom

Sandy Hook
Columbine
Uvalde
About half af all mass shootings are the end stage of domestic abuse situations.

[AndyG]

1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
2. To recognize always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
3. To recognize always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing cooperation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
4. To recognize always that the extent to which the cooperation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
5. To seek and preserve public favor, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humor, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public cooperation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8. To recognize always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
9. To recognize always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

...Robert Peel, eighteen-twenty-freaking-nine.

I feel comfortable near the police. Of course, there's a few numpty police who are in it for the lols and ought be booted out/locked up.

"7" is bang on.

Andy

[WI-Tom]

Almost all of their targets are not armed? Really? Got any actual evidence to back up that claim?

Sandy Hook
Columbine
Uvalde
About half af all mass shootings are the end stage of domestic abuse situations.

Let's take a look at some broader conclusions rather than focusing on a few high-profile shootings.

1. In 2020, 54% of all gun deaths were suicides. Armed police aren't going to help there.
2. Gun deaths in mass shootings are "a small fraction of all gun murders" each year. So not a hugely useful place to focus as far as the larger issue goes.
3. Only 3% of all gun deaths in 2020 involved law enforcement in any way. Clearly, armed police are not solving the problem of gun deaths.

Source

I rate your claims as unproven and generally irrelevant to the problem of gun violence. Statistics show pretty clearly that armed police aren't doing anything much to help. And of course, we are all aware of a disturbing number of high-profile incidents in which police fatally shoot people who didn't need to be killed. How does that happen? It happens because police carry guns.

Tom

[John Smith]

Good idea.

Perhaps; Look at parents wanting to take over school boards.

[John Smith]

Thank the 2nd Amendment Republicans for ensuring that criminals are heavily armed, in some cases with military-type weapons, and that the arms pipeline to Mexico and the drug cartels is kept wide open.

Lots of money skimmed off for campaign contributions.

My question remains: if the 2nd were rescinded, or just interpreted as to what it actually says, what do we do about guns already bought?

[Dave Wright]

Almost all of their targets are not armed? Really? Got any actual evidence to back up that claim?

Tom

I certainly do. Your assignment if you want, it is to find it. It isn't hard.

[Garret]

I had an uncle not without significant property or influence in Vermont and I inadvertently became snowbound at his place for a few days.
He (the uncle) had a police scanner running in the background 24/7 which I could not really hear. We were dissecting a 1917 Army revolver on the card table when of a sudden he jumped out of his fireside chair, turned up the radio on the mantle and yelled "Yeah! - Get that n----r"
What?
It turns out the troopers were following a black man on the highway and planning to box him in at the next exit. The language on the police radio was as offensive as I have ever heard.
It was 10° below freezing, I kept my mouth shut but decided on no return visits... He is dead now, but left his entire estate (8 figures plus real estate) to the eldest son, with the daughters getting not a dime. I established he might present a condensed version of 'conservative' and 'liberal'

When was this Jake?

In fairness, I have to add that about 10 years ago I got stopped for speeding with a friend in the car who is black. The statie was polite - though he still gave me a ticket - with the usual "Please slow down sir". After we took off. my friend said "So that's what it's like for a white guy..." Turned out that every time he'd been stopped - even minor speeding or taillight out sorta thing, he'd been made to get out of the car & spread-eagled.

Really sad.

[Garret]

Perhaps; Look at parents wanting to take over school boards.

School board members are elected. If you run & get elected, you're a valid member. If you don't like the folks on the board, run for the position.

[Dave Hadfield]

What the heck is ACAB?

[David G]

What the heck is ACAB?

Don't you love it when people use their own shorthand and expect everyone to know what they mean?

In this case, I think it's an acronym for All Cops Are Bad.

[Dave Hadfield]

OK, thanks.

Silly idea though.

[Too Little Time]

Let's take a look at some broader conclusions rather than focusing on a few high-profile shootings.

1. In 2020, 54% of all gun deaths were suicides. Armed police aren't going to help there.
2. Gun deaths in mass shootings are "a small fraction of all gun murders" each year. So not a hugely useful place to focus as far as the larger issue goes.
3. Only 3% of all gun deaths in 2020 involved law enforcement in any way. Clearly, armed police are not solving the problem of gun deaths.

Source

Statistics show pretty clearly that armed police aren't doing anything much to help. And of course, we are all aware of a disturbing number of high-profile incidents in which police fatally shoot people who didn't need to be killed. How does that happen? It happens because police carry guns.

I expect few will remember these statistics.

[Paul Pless]

What the heck is ACAB?

all coppers are bastards, uk slang from the 1920's
migrated over here as a prison tattoo in the seventies