Religion's role

[John Smith]

I've never been big on religion. I've been told over my life hundreds of time that religion teaches love.

I must be missing something, as I only seem to see it teaching hate. Hate trans, hate gays, hate immigrants, hate blacks, etc.....

[David G]

I've never been big on religion. I've been told over my life hundreds of time that religion teaches love.

I must be missing something, as I only seem to see it teaching hate. Hate trans, hate gays, hate immigrants, hate blacks, etc.....

There have always been people who misinterpret the teachings of great spiritual leaders. 'Tis the way of the world. But don't make the mistake of dismissing all the good that followers of Buddha have done in the world because of the egregious idiocy of a few of them. Or any other denomination, for that matter.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Might you be looking at the wrong religions? I don't hear anything like that at my church. I'll bet Tom F (noteworthy because he posts religious stuff) doesn't hear anything like that in his church either.

[John Smith]

Might you be looking the wrong religins? I don't hear anything like that at my church. I'll bet Tom F (noteworthy because he posts religious stuff) doesn't hear anything like that in his church either.

I'm guessing all those I refer to call themselves Christians. I can't be sure.

[skuthorp]

Religions are constructs of man. Not much to do with 'god' if such exists.

[Peerie Maa]

If the research is correct, some need religion. For those it gives a form to their lives, may be some comfort.

For those that don't need a religion, but practice one, it may be because they were brainwashed as a child, or they realize that it is a path to power.
For that last group, it matters not what religion, those of the three books or Hindu or whatever, those are the ones that do harm, either political or social harm, or by ripping off the gullible.

[Too Little Time]

I've never been big on religion. I've been told over my life hundreds of time that religion teaches love.

I must be missing something, as I only seem to see it teaching hate. Hate trans, hate gays, hate immigrants, hate blacks, etc.....

There were holy wars. Perhaps those who told you what religion teaches were less than truthful.

[CWSmith]

The great religions teach a powerful message that can be warped and distorted by others for their own gain.

As with many things, the true message demands a great deal of us that few will embrace. It is much easier to take the lessons, turn them around, and throw them at someone else when they are meant to be considered by us for us.

You are listening to the wrong people who are betraying the teachings of their faith.

[RFNK]

My own view is that religion is delusion. Religion answers questions for some when science runs out of answers, I suspect it's always been so. Like a hammer, it's a useful tool for harm or good. Buddhism has been just as responsible for leading and justifying oppression and horror as any other religion. I think blind faith in anything is generally going to be a problem. People need to be circumspect.

[Keith Wilson]

Again 'religion' is not one thing. It's about as broad a term as 'humanity' or 'society', probably broader than 'government'. It includes wildly diverse and utterly contradictory things, even within Christianity, from some of the best our species can produce to some of the absolute worst. It encompasses Desmond Tutu and Tomas de Torquemada, Francis of Assisi and Innocent III, John Murray and John Calvin. Trying to characterize it as if it were even a little homogeneous will just get everybody confused.

[Peerie Maa]

Again 'religion' is not one thing. It's about as broad a term as 'humanity' or 'society', probably broader than 'government'. It includes wildly diverse and utterly contradictory things, even within Christianity, from some of the best our species can produce to some of the absolute worst. It encompasses Desmond Tutu and Tomas de Torquemada, Francis of Assisi and Innocent III, John Murray and John Calvin. Trying to characterize it as if it were even a little homogeneous will just get everybody confused.

Pity that. How can one man's teaching be so many different things?

Sad, he was trying to bring Judaism back to the true path, and created a monster.

[ron ll]

We have evolved to use our brains to reason. Ditching that for faith seems a waste.

[RFNK]

Yep. Works for ideology too.

[David G]

Pity that. How can one man's teaching be so many different things?

Sad, he was trying to bring Judaism back to the true path, and created a monster.

Hmmm... a Religious Text created the way the Bible was - written by a wide variety of authors, with a wide range of insights/idiocies, some of which are contradictory and some all or none of which might be spot on the OG's message... over a wide span of time... and consolidated much much later by a self-appointed panel of experts - and you're wondering how a wide range of interpretations can arise?

[David G]

We have evolved to use our brains to reason. Ditching that for faith seems a waste.

And our brains are a marvel. But if you are under the impression that everthing in the Universe is amenable to reason... or that everything about humans is currently understood by our current level of curious exploration... you are not using that marvelous brain of yours very well, at all.

Organized Religion, and other paths to spiritual understanding, can help fill in some of the gaps, for some folks.

[ron ll]

And our brains are a marvel. But if you are under the impression that everthing in the Universe is amenable to reason... or that everything about humans is currently understood by our current level of curious exploration... you are not using that marvelous brain of yours very well, at all.

Organized Religion, and other paths to spiritual understanding, can help fill in some of the gaps, for some folks.

Everything in the universe IS amenable to reason, even your self righteousness. And nowhere did I say our current level of understanding is complete.

[Peerie Maa]

Hmmm... a Religious Text created the way the Bible was - written by a wide variety of authors, with a wide range of insights/idiocies, some of which are contradictory and some all or none of which might be spot on the OG's message... over a wide span of time... and consolidated much much later by a self-appointed panel of experts - and you're wondering how a wide range of interpretations can arise?

I was not wondering, I was bemoaning that it happened.

[Peerie Maa]

We have evolved to use our brains to reason. Ditching that for faith seems a waste.

I referred to research. You know, that scientific reason stuff. Research that if it is correct says that a large proportion of Hom Sap are genetically predisposed to have a religion.
So nothing is being "ditched".

[John Smith]

There have always been people who misinterpret the teachings of great spiritual leaders. 'Tis the way of the world. But don't make the mistake of dismissing all the good that followers of Buddha have done in the world because of the egregious idiocy of a few of them. Or any other denomination, for that matter.

I know a number of non believers who've lived lives of great integrity and honesty. I hope you're not implying that one must hold religious beliefs to do so.

Seems to me a great deal like the GOP. GOP preaches less government and less regulation, but when elected do the opposite; they ban books, control colleges, deny rights to gays and trans..........

[ron ll]

I referred to research. You know, that scientific reason stuff. Research that if it is correct says that a large proportion of Hom Sap are genetically predisposed to have a religion.
So nothing is being "ditched".

Wasnt referring to you but religion in general.

[David G]

Everything in the universe IS amenable to reason, even your self righteousness. And nowhere did I say our current level of understanding is complete.

I would have to disagree about everything being amenable to reason.

Or if it is... that we'll ever attain the level of intellectual capability that will allow us to actualize it.

I'm reminded of Arthur C. Clarke's comments on technology and magic.

Curious... what part of my comment did you see as 'self-righteous'?

[Peerie Maa]

Wasnt referring to you but religion in general.

And I was pointing out that some of us have no choice but to be religious, just as they cannot not be left-handed. Can you ditch what you were bourn with?

I worked with a top-notch engineer. We applied science every day in our work. He was a committed Christian and a Good Guy.

[Dikhaut]

I've never been big on religion. I've been told over my life hundreds of time that religion teaches love.

I must be missing something, as I only seem to see it teaching hate. Hate trans, hate gays, hate immigrants, hate blacks, etc.....

I don’t know of any religions that teach hate. They all certainly seem to have their fringe nut jobs that make that interpretation but they are the exception.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith Wilson]

How can one man's teaching be so many different things?

Well, one man's teachings written down by multiple people decades afterward and written about later yet by quite a few others, and that's only in the Official Book. Then elaborated on by thousands more, absorbed by the bureaucracy of the Roman Empire . . . Sometimes I'm amazed that anything of the original remains, if it indeed does.

I don't know of any religions that teach hate. They all certainly seem to have their fringe nut jobs that make that interpretation but they are the exception.

I'd say that there are large sections of current evangelical Christianity, and all too much of conservative Islam, that really do teach hate, at least partially. All too mainstream, not 'fringe nut jobs' at all. Some Hindu factions as well, I think, but I'm not as familiar with them.

[Breakaway]

We have evolved to use our brains to reason. Ditching that for faith seems a waste.

Funny hearing that reason trumps all from a woodenboat owner.



Kevin

Edit: Actually, any boatowner, but especially those in possession of wooden craft

[Breakaway]

Pity that. How can one man's teaching be so many different things?

Sad, he was trying to bring Judaism back to the true path, and created a monster.

Did you ever play telephone?

Kevin

[Keith Wilson]

Did you ever play telephone?

And for centuries. And then you get people adding their own ideas - St Paul, St Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, Joe Smith . . .

[ron ll]

Funny hearing that reason trumps all from a woodenboat owner.



Kevin

Edit: Actually, any boatowner, but especially those in possession of wooden craft

Believe me, faith isn’t what’s keeping her afloat.

[Bflat]

"Not only is there no God; try getting a plumber on a weekend." -Woody Allen-

[Breakaway]

Believe me, faith isn’t what’s keeping her afloat.

[John Smith]

I don’t know of any religions that teach hate. They all certainly seem to have their fringe nut jobs that make that interpretation but they are the exception.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seems a LOT of exceptions. I've known many religious and non religious folks. Faith, it seems, didn't make those religious folks more honest than the non religious folks.

I've known some wonderful, honest, people who believed. They seem to be more the exception than the rule.

It seems to me, and I'm a layman here, that God would not tolerate some of the things some people do in His name. I'm sure someone will respond with the free will argument, but when a witness exercises his free will to lie, the innocent man isn't exercising his free will in being convicted.

[Hallam]

Great pithy points made so far in the thread, all of them relevant for me. I’ll stick my neck out and give the subject a full on go. I don’t know if this will make sense or what but here goes…..
My reference will mostly be with Jesus/New Testament spirituality as I’m most familiar with it. My main thesis, there is the ideal and there is religion..
I’m thinking the greatest challenge in perusing the topic is adherence to critical thinking in a topic that too easily pushes the buttons of false assumption especially with what is encompassed by the meaning of terminology used.

A distinction needs to be identified between the teaching of Jesus and the actions of the Church in its many varied expressions along with the individual actions of people.
It is a human construct as mentioned. Perception and thought is confined to the reality of the physical domain. This does not delegitimise the wisdom contained in for the example I’m familiar with, biblical scripture, story lines and metaphor. This also does not preclude the acceptance of the faith based notion of the human construct being inspired by the source of life that is by its nature beyond material/physical perceptions. This is the faith based aspect that is because of its lack fullness of meaning, referred to as god. In the singular meaning of human construct this again is the notion of perfect ideal in all matters pertaining to goodness that lead to the realisation of justice wholeness and healing and the prevention of all negative outcomes of damaging behaviour.

So the way I’m proceeding is to look at it in term of the human construct primarily. Jesus is the ideal construct of human wholeness. The story is essentially about the nature of relationships and is an unfolding awareness or revelation from an ancient warrior nation tribal perspective to a personal wholeness perspective. All parables are observations of relationship dynamics in of one sort or another and contain strategies that avoid damage to oneself or being inflicted on the other by individual, by religion by nation. One key to understanding these elements of teaching is in some ways a ‘self fulfilling prophecy’ for want of a better term. That is if your intent is to look for and find what is positive, life affirming and in essence good pertaining to a multifaceted expose of a very limited English word, love, that in other languages often has several words to add nuanced meaning.

For the sake of avoiding exclusivity by way of “ my way is the right way, your way is the road to hell’ sort of crap, anything and everything that conforms to that which is encompassed by the broad notion of good as eluded to above is “following Jesus” .Therefore in what I’m familiar with in Souix spirituality they had the sacred path withe their own sacraments or material expressions of an imaterial concept or truth pertaining to what is good and life affirming as does Hindu spiritual teaching. The unity is not in doctrinal or cultural expression but beyond to the reality of what is being expressed pertaining and confirming to the ideal.

Psychologist, Carl Yung's work on cross cultural archetypal story metaphors etc gets into this in some depth.
Most religions are again, like blotting paper absorbing spilt ink, saturated with the inevitable consequences of the human condition and thus way less that the ideal the hope yo represent. Most while having much legitimacy are also attempts at owning god as their own and those outside have to conform to cultural and doctrinal precepts to join the collective. When conforming to the outer cultural symbolic aspects are given greater emphasis than the inner truth pertaining to the ideal the exclusivity takes over and diminishes inclusivity. Perfect representation of the ideal is a human impossibility. Therein lies the conundrum.

On a personal level the synthesis of this aspect of pursuit of meaning or truth I have recently disciples it into 3 words or notions that covered all and the order denotes priority. The first two are essential and the third must conform to the prior two:

Truth, Reason and by choice Faith.

[David G]

Religion is one possible road on the search for meaning...

[skuthorp]

God of the gaps………
Nothing wrong with what Jesus was purported to have protheetised, but every person there would have gone home with a different version, and the rot set in right there.
The final nail, so to speak, was trading principle for the power of the Roman Empire. But I do recognise ther have been high spots, art, music, philosophy, and low, the inquisition, forced conversion.
Humans are like that of course.

[George.]

Religion can be OK when it is just superstition.

It's organized religion that causes problems. It becomes a path to power, invariably abused.

The religious model in the West seems to be a dude on a raised platform lecturing a silent mass of sheep. The content of the lecture may vary, but the underlying principle is one man (usually a man) telling others what to think. Stuff that.