Lug rig reefing systems?

[Toxophilite]

I was wondering if people here with small lug rigged boats would share with me their reefing systems? Pictures would be appreciated if possible. Thanks
I have a 74 sq ft main

[Woxbox]

I don't have any photos that shows it clearly, but my balanced lug system isn't much different from what you might see on a jib-headed main.

I have two sets of reef points. Forward, jiffy reefing lines start on the starboard, mast side of the boom and run up through grommets, one for each reef, and then back down the port side to small turning blocks on the boom. They then run back along the boom through a few fairleads to cleats where they can be easily reached standing in the cockpit. That takes care of shortening the luff.

On the leech end, I have a single reefing line made up in two parts. After the luff line has been hardened up as much as possible and made off, I harden up on the jiffy reefing line on the leech. It carries a halyard shackle so I can shift that shackle to either of the two grommets on the leech as needed. The halyard shackle is attached to a small block. The reefing line runs from a cleat on the starboard side of the boom, through this block, and then back down to the port side of the boom, through a turning block, and then to a 2:1 tackle attached to the port side of the boom. So I pull the sail as taught as I can get it by hand and make off the starboard side end of the reefing line on the cleat. Then on the port side, I harden up on the tackle. This gives me a 4:1 purchase on the foot of the sail.

I've found that I can't have too much purchase here. If I get the foot properly tight, the reefing points are hardly needed. If it's not tight, the reefing points help some -- they sort of make the sail look right. But it isn't. The sail will still not set properly if you can't get the foot (that is to say, the new foot created along the reef points) nice and straight.

This is for a 150 square foot sail. You could get away with less on a smaller sail -- but one only reefs when the wind picks up, and that's just when you really want your canvas nice and flat.

[Bruce Bateau]

Mine is shamelessly based on Yeadon's, which may or may not be based on McMullen's...

Downhaul is the smallest fiddle block I could find. While not technically part of the reefing system, without it, the sail wouldn't stay flat which helps with sail control before reefing:


Here is a cute cheek block and aluminum clam cleat. They work really well. the black line goes up to a real climbing carabiner, which clips to the grommet on the reef points. I just move the carabiner up or down depending on the reef I need. They have been on there for ten years and show no signs of stress.


Here's the whole set up. The fore reefing line goes through a bee hole. Note the clam cleat is on the bottom so it doesn't get snagged on the dog collar.

[WI-Tom]

Not sure if a reefing set-up for an 85 sq ft boomless sail is a "system"--just drop the sail, move the downhaul to the new tack, roll up the foot and tie the reef points with a slipped half-hitch, and move the sheet to the new clew (it's on a snap-link, as is the downhaul). The sailmaker (Stuart Hopkins) put in a continuous reinforcement band in the sail rather than individual reef points, since the new foot of the sail will need to take lots of tension.

I use a small bungee/ball loop at the tack and clew to keep the sail rolled up neatly.

The lack of hardware and systems for reefing is one thing I really appreciate about a boomless standing lug. You do (obviously) lose sail-shaping ability, and can't flatten the sail nearly as much. As a trade-off, the sail twists off so much at the top that it spills a lot of wind that way, which helps keep the boat on its feet.

Tom

[Toxophilite]

That does sound wonderfully simple. Woxbox and Bruce's setups also sound good. I have a boom so I have to have some sort of system.

Previously on my one reef Shellback rig I had a loop on both reefpoints, the fore one would simply slide over the front of the boom (it was snug and didn't slide back) and the aft one would hook on a snapshackle fastened to the outhaul setup. I also had a line not unlike a cringle through the aft reef point so the sail could be fastened to the boom as well.
This works well for a single reef setup but not quite as good for the second reef which is probably when you would really want it too.

Bruce , I have to ask ,do you have lines to fasten your 2nd and 3rd reef to the boom. I love the idea of a one line with biners or shackle set up but it seems like with the second or third reef you would need something to fasten the sail to the boom. I could be wrong, just asking.

[Peerie Maa]

Peerie Maa came without any lines, but there is a sheave in the end of the boom.
The tack is just fitted with a down haul line to the reef cringle that ties round the ford end of the boom.
The tack goes to a hook on a leathered strop with a line tail that goes through the sheave and comes forward to a cleat as a clew out haul. To reef, slacken off the tail to allow the traveller to come forward, pull down the leech and hook the reef cringle on. Then pull on the clew out haul line and belay.
nick-miller-2.jpgfinished 003.jpg

[timber_cruiser]

IMG_4642.jpg

IMG_4777.jpg

This is a simple system I copied from somewhere. I use the hook to transfer to the next cringle when I move to another reef.

[Bruce Bateau]

That does sound wonderfully simple. Woxbox and Bruce's setups also sound good. I have a boom so I have to have some sort of system.

Previously on my one reef Shellback rig I had a loop on both reefpoints, the fore one would simply slide over the front of the boom (it was snug and didn't slide back) and the aft one would hook on a snapshackle fastened to the outhaul setup. I also had a line not unlike a cringle through the aft reef point so the sail could be fastened to the boom as well.
This works well for a single reef setup but not quite as good for the second reef which is probably when you would really want it too.

Bruce , I have to ask ,do you have lines to fasten your 2nd and 3rd reef to the boom. I love the idea of a one line with biners or shackle set up but it seems like with the second or third reef you would need something to fasten the sail to the boom. I could be wrong, just asking.

The reefing line (one on each end of the boom) is long enough to accommodate for the sail shortening up as I reef. I snug down the fore line first, then use the aft line as an outhaul. I tie the sail to itself, not the boom. Only the attachment points at the leech and luff are in contact with the boom. Does that make sense?

Here's a video (I hope it works) that shows a bit of the set up. I don't usually tend to take pics once I have a reef in!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12Qh...ew?usp=sharing

[Toxophilite]

Thanks very much, this is very helpful and gives me many good ideas, Please keep them coming

That's a lovely video Bruce! Yes I was referring to tack and clew primarily, not the intermediate patches for tidying up the sail.
Like how when the sail is unreefed it is lashed directly to the boom as well as to the end. I can see how having an adjustable line on the tack and clew would largely solve the problem I was having with my more static setup.

Peerie Ma- You have a ring traveller on your boom like some lug rigs have on their masts? Functioning in much the same way (on masts in essence it's a parrel and a halyard.) Do you have a closer picture of the traveller? Does it have a loop and hook on the same side like a mast traveller? Or are they orientated differently?

Timber-cruiser - I can't quite see in the picture, Do you have hook on your tack line? or on both your tack and clew lines?

[timber_cruiser]

Toxophilite,

This might show more details of the cringle hook I use. The reef line secured to the boom will slip and align to vertical under tension when I pull and lock the other end into a jam cleat near the center of the boom.

IMG_4773.jpg

[Todd Bradshaw]

I found something interesting while doing the design work for a fairly tall standing lug. In order to keep the fore and aft location of the sail in the same area when the sail was reefed (to try to maintain helm balance and avoid needing to move the halyard position on the yard) a deep reef required an unusual reef line. The cause was bringing the high reef tack, which at full sail is out well ahead of the mast, back to the mast for reefing. It doesn't happen every time, and it doesn't happen on balanced lugs, but ever since I have always taken the time to draw out a sailplan for each reef on standing lugs, to make sure that it can maintain the CE/CLP relationship in the same ballpark. Note that I didn't draw the bundled part under the boom, since my concern was the working portion of the sail.

SL-reefs.jpg

st lug double reef 005.jpg

[dbp1]

No contributions, just: wonderful thread (why this forum is invaluable), and definitely saving this for a couple months when I need to set this up!

[Canoeyawl]

I never, ever leave the nettles in the cringles when the sail is set, a tiny sail needs all the good air it can get.
When I reef it is usually for a short period and if I use anything it's just a lace line. Most often it is only the tack and clew that are reefed the sail seems to take care of itself. (It is often that I note nettles tied around the boom and destroying the poor sail)
It's not like a ship where you have to send a man aloft in the dark and cold to tie in your reefs which are several feet apart, then them nettles are handy...

[Toxophilite]

But but.. then you leave nettles and cringles out of your sailing vernacular!!

I never, ever leave the nettles in the cringles when the sail is set, a tiny sail needs all the good air it can get.
When I reef it is usually for a short period and if I use anything it's just a lace line. Most often it is only the tack and clew that are reefed the sail seems to take care of itself. (It is often that I note nettles tied around the boom and destroying the poor sail)
It's not like a ship where you have to send a man aloft in the dark and cold to tie in your reefs which are several feet apart, then them nettles are handy...

[Peerie Maa]

I never, ever leave the nettles in the cringles when the sail is set, a tiny sail needs all the good air it can get.
When I reef it is usually for a short period and if I use anything it's just a lace line. Most often it is only the tack and clew that are reefed the sail seems to take care of itself. (It is often that I note nettles tied around the boom and destroying the poor sail)
It's not like a ship where you have to send a man aloft in the dark and cold to tie in your reefs which are several feet apart, then them nettles are handy...

Traditionally, the points are sewn to the sail. Speeds up reefing no end, especially as you don't have to grovel about when you drop them.
The Northumbrian coble sailors would often pull down a "half" reef as you describe without tying in the reef points.

P.S Nettles must be a US thing. We cal them reef points. Knittles according to Steels are two or three rope yarns twisted between the fingers they were used to make a woven covering on a point on the end of a rope, or over a pudding.

POINTING. Tapering the end of a rope, or splice, and working over the reduced part a small close netting, with an even number of knittles twisted from the same, to prevent the end untwisting, and to go more easily through a block or hole.

https://maritime.org/doc/steel/part6.php

[Toxophilite]

Great.Not only do I get good ideas, I get to see lot's of lovely boats and learn things.
Bring it on, its much appreciated

Peerie Ma (Nick?) Do you by any chance have a closer picture of your boom traveller ring?

Here's my recently completed new abomination. I must say, to me, it has much better shape than the old abomination and the tanbark colour is beautiful. I will savour it till it starts to fade.
(Apologies to the esteemed Mr. Bradshaw, He gave me great advice regarding recutting the sail without a roach but in the end I decided to go with it how it was design even if it is unusual)

I have it on the dock as it was 20km gusting to 40km and as I didn't have my reefs completely sorted . As I would've needed them in the conditions I t seemed prudent to take photos on the dock.
I did try to go out with the first reef in and the wind picked up like crazy and the results were rather wild. Also my downhaul was maxed out .

Here's some pictures with my somewhat inadequate system with the reefs put in. Keep in mind I wasn't positioned perfectly and I wasn't hauling in the sail as much as I could because frankly the boat was on rollers and trying to heel and sail off the dock. It was pretty funny. I was tired of fussing with the downhaul so the 2nd reef has a crease etc.

The biggest bugbear I seem to face is the downhaul vs the reefs. It might be a mast traveller thing.

If I have the downhaul set up for normal usage, when I put the first reef in I can't get enough tension on the luff as my downhaul bottoms out.
If I shorten the downhaul for the 1st reef them I have problems when I drop the sail with the spar wanting to rotate sideways as there simply isn't enough downhaul slack for it to come down straight.

I feel I am missing something crucial here and would really appreciate any insights or work arounds.
Thanks

[Woxbox]

Am I missing something? Just slack off the downhaul a bunch before you put the reef in, so you'll have working room to spare.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Tanbark actually ages much better cosmetically than either white or cream Dacron do. Even if it fades a bit and gets a little dirty it still looks pretty nice and kind of "fits the bill". The sail looks good! My only gripe would be that I'd like to see a softer top batten as this one is too stiff at its forward end (visible in the second photo).

[Toxophilite]

Thanks Mr. Bradshaw. I noticed the crease at the top in the front view photos. I do have a a windsurfer batten that's considerable more flexible. I'm not sure though if that was a result of my having the sail out a lot to keep the boat from sailing into the shed or off the dock. It was pretty gusty. I took some decorative liberties with the batten pocket end re-enforcement as I've been a bowyer and sometimes archer.

[Toxophilite]

Am I missing something? Just slack off the downhaul a bunch before you put the reef in, so you'll have working room to spare.

I always slack off the downhaul completely when I take the sail down , otherwise the boom won't move forward enough to let the yard drop into the boat.

I wish I could do some computer modelling of it. Somehow my otherwise mechanically adept brain can't wrap it's head around the problem just thinking about it. And the weather hasn't been obliging. Except for today.
In the original sail plan the downhaul attachment is set 1ft back on the boom. Almost more like a balanced lug. I wonder if this is where i run into difficulties as I am running it more like a standing lug.
I guess I'll have to spend more time experimenting. I can get it set up to work with no reefs and not bad with one. But with the second I just can't get enough tension.
Some geometery if off somewhere.

[Yeadon]

When the weather improves, I’ll make you a short video of how I reef Haverchuck.

[Canoeyawl]

Traditionally, the points are sewn to the sail. Speeds up reefing no end, especially as you don't have to grovel about when you drop them.

I stopped using them (points, nettles, reef lines) altogether for daysailing. I can reef the tack and the clew in about a minute. Sometimes if the conditions are rough and I don't want to trip on the boom I'll just take up on the clew leaving the tack alone, 1/2 a reef. (If you take a good puff and trip on the boom, you can not ease the sail, and there is danger right there)
If the reef is going to be in all day I may lace the cringles, but not usually.

[Toxophilite]

Your half reef to elevate the boom end sounds cuseful. What's the sail shape like. Still Good?
Above you said you use a lace line for reefing.
Can you explain ?
I used to just use loops. forward one around the boom, aft one into a snap clip knotted onto the outhaul.

I stopped using them (points, nettles, reef lines) altogether for daysailing. I can reef the tack and the clew in about a minute. Sometimes if the conditions are rough and I don't want to trip on the boom I'll just take up on the clew leaving the tack alone, 1/2 a reef. (If you take a good puff and trip on the boom, you can not ease the sail, and there is danger right there)
If the reef is going to be in all day I may lace the cringles, but not usually.

[Canoeyawl]

Your half reef to elevate the boom end sounds cuseful. What's the sail shape like. Still Good?
Above you said you use a lace line for reefing.
Can you explain ?
I used to just use loops. forward one around the boom, aft one into a snap clip knotted onto the outhaul.

Loops are fine, it is just the wee eyes that get laced with a single longish piece of 3/16" line (properly pointed with a bunson burner) when I bother to do it. I did not like the constant chafing but mostly the bad air around all those hanging bits.
(My sail is cut with a bit of roach on the foot which tends to act as a "bag", the excess reefed sail just sort of lays there)

[WI-Tom]

I always slack off the downhaul completely when I take the sail down , otherwise the boom won't move forward enough to let the yard drop into the boat.

I wish I could do some computer modelling of it. Somehow my otherwise mechanically adept brain can't wrap it's head around the problem just thinking about it. And the weather hasn't been obliging. Except for today.
In the original sail plan the downhaul attachment is set 1ft back on the boom. Almost more like a balanced lug. I wonder if this is where i run into difficulties as I am running it more like a standing lug.
I guess I'll have to spend more time experimenting. I can get it set up to work with no reefs and not bad with one. But with the second I just can't get enough tension.
Some geometery if off somewhere.

Hmm... It looks like you have enough mast height to hoist the sail higher when reefed. Not exactly what you want, maybe, a higher CE. But that would give you more room for tensioning your downhaul. In my boat, there's definitely a point where I have to hoist higher than "X" or my downhaul will bottom out.

Tom

[Toxophilite]

You definitely get more downhaul tension with the rig hoisted higher, but as you said for reefing it's a little counter productive.

It's seems hard to find enough play between having enough slack to easily drop the rig (boom needs to go a ways past the mast for the yard to drop straight down with the traveller) whilst still be able to apply enough tension at both reefs without raising the rig.

This is what I'm trying to figure out

In the meantime inspired by. the ideas here. I've made a little brass hook. I tried a snaphook I had and it didn't hang nicely from the sail. I have various SS carabiners but I also have 1/4" brass rod and a little torch so I made one and it seems to work well. I might still cut a little of the flare off the end of the hook .
I had a purpleheart jam cleat already on the boom that I had made for clew outhaul that I never used so I was able to run the line from the hook through the outhaul beehole then to the jam cleat.
Now I have to decide if I want to rig something similar for the tack or just continue to use loops for now.

[Peerie Maa]

Great.Not only do I get good ideas, I get to see lot's of lovely boats and learn things.
Bring it on, its much appreciated

Peerie Ma (Nick?) Do you by any chance have a closer picture of your boom traveller ring?

Yes, I answer to Nick.
No better photos, so I have knocked up a sketch.
The ring is an integral part of the outhaul line, spliced in and leathered.
Tack outhaul.jpg

I hope that helps.

[Toxophilite]

It's a loop of line rather than metal?

[Peerie Maa]

It's a loop of line rather than metal?

Just so.

[Toxophilite]

Hopefully last reefing question.
People generally say one secures the tack and then tightens up the clew outhaul.
On my previous system my tack reef points just had loops which slipped over the boom end.
This brought the tack to the forward end of the boom for each reef rather than straight down to the boom.
Worked okay but the second reef tended to slip back which isn't ideal.

So I was going to have a similar setup to what I put on the clew. line with a hook, going through the beehole and then down the boom to a jam cleat.
THis would also pull the tack to the front of the boom. I would have a line on each tack reef point to tie the sail around the boom too

Is this fine for the sail geometery to have the tack always at the front of the boom rather than reefing it to a point directly below or a little forward of the reef point?

[Toxophilite]

Maybe this helps illustrate what I mean
Here's the tack with the second reef in. For the tack the line(nettle?)to tie it to the boom is probably redundant because it is so close to the beehole.
At the clew because the 2nd reef is so far from the beehole I have a line on the tack to tie the clew reef point to the boom
Does this look satisfactory? relatively simple, only had to make a couple hooks and another hardwood tube jam cleat

[Yeadon]

33CA622A-C57E-448A-B3B5-2E5F189C455A.jpg
I use a big snap shackle at the tack. It’s big enough to swallow all three reef points.

[Yeadon]

Attachment 130854

[Toxophilite]

Is that just tied on to the front of the boom? Nice and simple. Humourously I had the same setup for my clew with loops on the reefpoints tat hooked into it, not sure why I didn't do it at the tack too. I might swap out my adjustable set up for the tack.

[Toxophilite]

This is very interesting. I revisited it a few times.

My sail has 2 parallel reefs

I was setting up a downhaul system and trying to set it so I had enough travel to fully tighten the luff ,with still enough slack upon release to drop the sail comfortably. I couldn't quite do it.
I found I had to reef the tack, then hook the loop on my yard onto the mast traveller., then reef the tack. Otherwise I couldn't get the whole rig to go forward enough to hook the yard look on to the traveller.
Then I could raise the sail which would be all cockeyed across the boat, Just what you want for putting in a second reef.

I was trying it out in front of my place in conditions where it got strong enough to be more comfortable with a reef and even a second reef. It worked and set and sailed well under each reef. but the complicated nature and awkwardness of the above procedure made me want a solution, preferably simple.

You mentioned trying to avoid moving the halyard on the yard.

Made me think about that , so I tried attaching another loop, closer to the forward end of my yard by about 8"
This allowed me to entirely reef the sail and then hook it onto the traveller which of course was simpler, and resulted in a an easy raising and lowering of the sail

Is it okay in a reefing situation to move the halyard attachment point? The sail still seemed to set well

I found something interesting while doing the design work for a fairly tall standing lug. In order to keep the fore and aft location of the sail in the same area when the sail was reefed (to try to maintain helm balance and avoid needing to move the halyard position on the yard) a deep reef required an unusual reef line. The cause was bringing the high reef tack, which at full sail is out well ahead of the mast, back to the mast for reefing. It doesn't happen every time, and it doesn't happen on balanced lugs, but ever since I have always taken the time to draw out a sailplan for each reef on standing lugs, to make sure that it can maintain the CE/CLP relationship in the same ballpark. Note that I didn't draw the bundled part under the boom, since my concern was the working portion of the sail.

SL-reefs.jpg

st lug double reef 005.jpg