Balanced lug with a jib?

[timber_cruiser]

I came across this interesting boat - Silmaril a Francois Vivier design offered in a kit package from Arwen Marine.

https://www.arwenmarine.com/BateauxSilmaril.html

I am intrigued by the pics of this boat with a balanced lug and jib sail plan.

IMG_5137b.jpg

IMGb_4938b.jpg

Silmaril.jpg

I have not seen a jib with a balanced lug before. I am curious if it performs better upwind.

Is anyone familiar with this sail plan and how it performs?

[Woxbox]

Not familiar with it. But who says balanced lugs can't keep up with jib-equiped sails in the first place? It may, however, be an easy way to add some sail area or fine tune the balance of the rig.

[stromborg]

I built a KDI (from the drawing board of Clint Chase) standing lug sloop. I also rigged it as a balanced lug, you would have to be careful to not snag the jib sheets on the boom when tacking...or have the sail plan spread out enough for clearance to not be an issue.

[WI-Tom]

Take a rig whose prime virtue is simplicity and add a jib to complicate it.

Lots of people do it. I'd wonder about luff tension for the jib, and the extra sheet, and potential snagging at the heel of the yard on each tack. And then I'd be happy with my mainsail alone.

Tom

[Toxophilite]

Definitely works better with a standing lug due to the tendency(discussed above) for the jib sheets to snag on the boom. I've tried mine rigged as a standing and as a balanced . Francoise Vivier probably knows what he's doing though and has it sorted.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I'd wonder about luff tension for the jib,

The luff tension on the jib is terrible in the posted photos.

[Marty J]

The added sail area is even less than the mizzen, I would be shocked if it actually improved pointing ability, and a boat like that probably shouldn't be sailed in conditions where you might want to strike the main and sail under jib and mizzen alone.

Some people just can't accept that cat rigged boats are perfectly capable of going to windward.

[Canoeyawl]

Waterline length has everything thing to do with with working to windward.
(My yawl will actually point a tiny bit higher if I take the jib away, assuming there is actually enough wind and boat speed)

[Stora Le]

Ross Lillistone drew a configuration with jib for his Phoenix III/First Mate with the balanaced lug set as a standing lug.
There is an Off Center Harbor video showing this:
https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...ss-lillistone/

The builder/owner Jonathon McNally (jon m here on this forum, I think?) describes her in the video as behaving like like two different boats with or without jib without further explanation.

[WI-Tom]

Ross Lillistone drew a configuration with jib for his Phoenix III/First Mate with the balanaced lug set as a standing lug.
There is an Off Center Harbor video showing this:
https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...ss-lillistone/

The builder/owner Jonathon McNally (jon m here on this forum, I think?) describes her in the video as behaving like like two different boats with or without jib without further explanation.

The Phoenix III is a strong performer to windward with just the stock 76 sq ft balance lug rig, no jib. I'd be curious to hear more from Jon about his jib experience.

Tom

[Wayne Baumgartner]

I have been thinking about this myself after seeing Vivier's designs. I have a CLC 17' Waterlust sailing canoe with a balanced lug on the main and mizzen. My main goal in adding a jib is to sail closer upwind, and to improve the tacking angle from the lousy 120 degrees I have been getting.

What tacking angle do people usually achieve with a balanced lug, and with a balanced lug + jib?

[Brian Palmer]

With a standing lug and a jib (and mizzen) I can tack through about 90 to 100 degrees.

[Woxbox]

I can get as good as 90 with a balanced lug and jib-headed mizzen. To my surprise, the boat will do it with my hand off the tiller in moderate conditions. In fact, I must admit that the boat will sometimes point higher if I leave it to its own devices. Sort of like letting a horse take you home. This is a GPS track, too, not the shift in the compass bearing which always exaggerates, being insensitive to leeway.

It's mostly good sails, but I did have to tweak the balance before it would do this. I had too much helm at first, but shifting the mainsail forward 6" fixed that.

[WI-Tom]

I have been thinking about this myself after seeing Vivier's designs. I have a CLC 17' Waterlust sailing canoe with a balanced lug on the main and mizzen. My main goal in adding a jib is to sail closer upwind, and to improve the tacking angle from the lousy 120 degrees I have been getting.

What tacking angle do people usually achieve with a balanced lug, and with a balanced lug + jib?

With a standing lug and no jib, I'd guess around 100 degrees. Maybe I could point higher, but it seems faster to take the wider tacking angle where the boat moves at a higher speed.

With no main and no jib, I can go dead to windward under oars. That's always the fastest option. But I often don't care about being fast or not. My boat does fine to windward for me.

Tom

[Marty J]

Wayne, what mechanical advantage do you have on your main downhaul? I wouldn't worry about a jib until you are certain you have all the luff tension you need.

The photos on CLC's website appear to show a 1:1 downhaul. This is probably fine if you intend to pedal upwind and only sail reaching or running, but you would want at least 3:1 or even as much as 6:1 in order to achieve the luff tension you need to beat upwind.