If I Were Building A Boat Again...

[Dryfeet]

The irony of Norm's Boat and the Birdwatcher is that they are probably pretty pleasant to be aboard. I confess pride of ownership would not be a problem for me. Pride in having built one's own boat, however, THAT is always something to be proud of--no matter the aesthetics.

[jshaley]

I was looking at Scram Pram and then noticed its little sister "IMB" that does include ports for oars. Maybe not the best rower but I think every builder/sailor has an abacus of compromise, sliding beads back and forth. Anchoring this back to Tom's original post I could see a first/fast build of IMB and a summer of fun.

Yes, familiar with Pilgrim and AWOL as well.

[WI-Tom]

The irony of Norm's Boat and the Birdwatcher is that they are probably pretty pleasant to be aboard. I confess pride of ownership would not be a problem for me. Pride in having built one's own boat, however, THAT is always something to be proud of--no matter the aesthetics.

Hmm... I've always had the opposite impression. They've always seemed like boats for people who want to be indoors in a cabin while sailing. I quite enjoy being out in it, in an open boat. I think I'd hate a Birdwatcher style cabin.

Tom

[stromborg]

Hmm... I've always had the opposite impression. They've always seemed like boats for people who want to be indoors in a cabin while sailing. I quite enjoy being out in it, in an open boat. I think I'd hate a Birdwatcher style cabin.

Tom

I like a bit of both. It's fun to sail around all day then sit in the cockpit to watch the sun go down but I love being able to lay out my bedding on a mattress that isn't going to deflate in the middle of the nigh then close the hatch and settle into my personal hard-sided clubhouse for the night. Might be a reaction to too many miserable nights tent camping off motorcycles.

[Dryfeet]

Hmm... I've always had the opposite impression. They've always seemed like boats for people who want to be indoors in a cabin while sailing. I quite enjoy being out in it, in an open boat. I think I'd hate a Birdwatcher style cabin.

Tom

I've been in the PNW too long. Being out of the wind/rain/sun, but still able to see is nice. My dermatologist would also support my choices....

[Dave Hadfield]

Regarding the Bolger/Michalak designs, I’d prefer an open cockpit, but a walk-through slotted cabin. Not the Birdwatcher enclosure at all.

Tenting on hard rocks doesn’t appeal to me as much as sleeping on board, and a very simple lightweight cuddy, with sitting-up room, and the slotted walk-through top, looks practical — even for sail-and-oar.

Wishful thinking?

[WI-Tom]

Regarding the Bolger/Michalak designs, I’d prefer an open cockpit, but a walk-through slotted cabin. Not the Birdwatcher enclosure at all.

Tenting on hard rocks doesn’t appeal to me as much as sleeping on board, and a very simple lightweight cuddy, with sitting-up room, and the slotted walk-through top, looks practical — even for sail-and-oar.

Wishful thinking?

I'm sure that would work. I may be weird, but I find sleeping on bare granite to be quite comfy with a couple of yoga mats. And I think a cuddy might add a lot of windage, which might matter if you like to row in the wind. But the beautiful thing is, there's no one right way to play this game.

Tom

[Autonomous]

I went through the boat selection process a couple years ago and can offer some random thoughts which may or may not help.

Welsford's Long Steps is the boat that woke me from my slumber and sent me down the new boat path. I even got the study plans and spoke with a builder.
Awesome and capable boat though one of the most complicated of its genre with lots of compartments, hatches and a complicated tiller.
Then a health issue happened which closed this door. Luckily, my vision recovered but I chose a quicker path to a finished boat.

Capsize recovery characteristics should be given more attention in the sail-n-oar world. There are a lot of popular designs that, in my opinion, are not safe. You can find a few recovery videos out there, some are shocking. Make damn sure whatever you choose has adequate floatation and a daggerboard-centerboard case that is high enough or can be easily sealed to prevent water ingress during recovery. The boat I ended up with has the best recovery capability of all the videos I saw.

Size. You don't hear people wishing their boat was two feet shorter. Plenty of folks wish their boat was (insert value) longer. It's easier to build the right size the first time rather than build two boats. That said, first time boat builders should always build a small dinghy before their destination boat.
Double ended boats and dories with fine sterns make the boat effectively a couple feet shorter. A Norwegian push-pull tiller is one clue there are a couple extra feet on the stern that don't have much capacity.
I have a 15' double ender with a push-pull tiller. My new 17' transom boat has about twice the room and capacity.

Side benches are pure luxury compared to sitting on the sole of a small boat. You aren't getting younger. Your guests will appreciate them too.

John Wellsford, Ross Lillistone and Clinton Chase come to mind for competent designs. There are others as well.
Lillistone's Periwinkle is fast and versatile. If you want fast? Set both masts-n-sails. Simple? Just set one in the mid mast step.

Carry on.

[rgthom]

Welsford's Long Steps is the boat that woke me from my slumber and sent me down the new boat path. I got the study plans and spoke with a builder.
Awesome and capable boat though one of the most complicated of its genre with lots of compartments, hatches and a complicated tiller.

The linked double yoke steering on Walkabout and Long Steps does seem complex and takes up space. My Walkabout has no mizzen and I did not do the steering as designed, instead putting in a rope steering copied from Chip Skiff's adaption of the Coquina steering. It has a line routed all around the cockpit and reachable at any point. Many prefer a tiller, of course, and it has occurred to me that if I mounted a free swinging tiller on the aft bulkhead and used a couple of blocks to turn the steering line to the tiller it should work. You could even change the "gearing" by where the line attached along the tiller arm. This would be pretty simple and the line takes up space only at the outer edge under the coaming. I have not actually tested this yet. OK, carry on....

[Rob Hazard]

Learning to steer with Coquina's rope system took me about an hour before it felt as natural as using a tiller. I know a lot of people are spooked by it but it's really no problem. I had more trouble getting used to a Scandinavian push-pull tiller my first sail on an Oughtred double-ender.

[Woxbox]

Learning to steer with Coquina's rope system took me about an hour before it felt as natural as using a tiller. I know a lot of people are spooked by it but it's really no problem. I had more trouble getting used to a Scandinavian push-pull tiller my first sail on an Oughtred double-ender.

I use a continuous line in place of a tiller on my 16' skiff. I agree, they're not hard to get used to, and have lots of advantages. You can sit anywhere in the boat, for starters. And, point two, there's no tiller bisecting the stern sheets. If you want a mizzen in the boat, no problem there, either. I'm surprised we don't see this system more often.

[dalekidd]

I just went through the "what would I build" process 2 years ago. I considered many of the boats cited in this thread. I've salivated over many of John Welsford's designs as well as Oughtred's. I'd say John's Walkabout was second on my list, a design which Chuck Leinweber said was the best he'd ever sailed in its category.

It's reassuring that the one I chose, the Calendar Islands Yawl 16, is among the many discussed in this thread. I chose the CIY for several reasons: size, cost, simplicity, its sleeping platform (my horror story), it was a lapstrake design (I'd already built 3 S&G boats), unstayed rig, balanced lugsail/yawl rig, and good reviews all being key factors. (Besides the fact that Clint is just such a nice guy.)

As to how I use my boats, I sail mostly on inland lakes in mild conditions and like to overnight. If I get comfortable with the CIY, I may like to try a little coastal cruising as in the ICW in the SE. The Watertribe NC Ultramarathon intrigues me. And maybe - just maybe, see about the Maine Island Trail at some point.

I've only had her out twice in very light wind, so I'm eager to put her through her paces. I'm sure I've much to learn, some tweaking to do and more. I'll report back in a year and let you know if I made the right choice.

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[WI-Tom]

Yep, the CIY is a beauty for sure, and a good performer judging by the day I got to spend sailing it. Not nearly as rowing-oriented as my Whitehall-based Alaska, but definitely rowable. And of course its sailing performance will be stronger especially as it breezes up. I think of Alaska as a 40/60 boat (40% sailing, 60% rowing). The CIY might be close to the opposite.

The progression you've laid out (inland lakes to group events to MIT) pretty closely parallels my own. In my case, the group event was the Texas 200, and I learned enough there that the next year was the start of more ambitious multi-week cruises for me.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

I use a continuous line in place of a tiller on my 16' skiff. I agree, they're not hard to get used to, and have lots of advantages. You can sit anywhere in the boat, for starters. And, point two, there's no tiller bisecting the stern sheets. If you want a mizzen in the boat, no problem there, either. I'm surprised we don't see this system more often.

This reveals another of my character flaws (or if you want to be kinder about it, eccentricities). I can totally see the practical advantages of rope steering (and push-pull tillers, too, I'll grudgingly admit). Multihulls too.

But I can't bring myself to love them. I think the issue for me is that I really love the feel and direct feedback of a conventional tiller. It just feels right, like sailing is supposed to be. And so, am I willing to adopt something that may (in some ways) be "better" if it means giving up something I deeply love?

The answer, so far, seems to be: Nope.

Tom

[Jfitzger]

I like the concentration on small cruisers. I've been cruising with a friend in a pair of Hobie Islands on the Great Lakes, mostly the Apostle Islands, for the past 4 years. I really enjoy the boat except for a few things. It's really wet which limits my time on Lake Superior to under three months a year. I want a tandem. I have people in my life would love to go but aren't up to driving their own boat. The Hobie Island tandem has the cargo capacity of single which isn't enough for a decent length trip. I'm not a big fan of the Mirage drive.

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The sail and oar route seemed appealing at first and I was thinking of building an Angus Row Cruiser. I built Dave Gentry's Ruth and really enjoy it on rivers and small lakes but it also made me realize I don't want to row on Lake Superior. I want to be out surfing three foot waves. I just wouldn't feel comfortable with my back to the waves.

Most sail and oar boats are far heavier than I want. I want to be able to sail onto a beach and carry it inland if need be. I like sleeping in a tent and have no desire to sleep aboard.

I've settled on a tandem version of Hugh Horton's Bufflehead with CLC outriggers. I plan on using the rig from the Hobie Island but making the sail from a Sailrite kit. It will have two decent size cockpits with spray skirts. I haven't decided if I want I want fixed or folding akas. They will have to be quickly removable. On a trip to the Apostles my friend and I set up camp and removed the rig and outriggers. At dawn we were able to paddle out on a glassy Superior and explore the sea (lake?) caves of Devil's Island.

I need a good reason to build a boat. There are so many boats out there that if one meets my needs it seems wasteful to not take that option. I don't judge others for building but I do get a bit bothered by the "I want to learn to sail what boat should I build for $500 out of BCX plywood from Home Depot." There's a enough junk boats that if we do build it makes sense to at least consider it's life after the builder is gone. I've seen way to many home built boats that look like this,

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I've also come to realize that when I buy or rent the attractiveness of the boat doesn't matter all that much. It's nice at first to have a pretty boat but after a while it doesn't have a real effect on my enjoyment. Hedonic Adaptation. I own a Catalina 22. I rent a Kevlar canoe most years for a week in the Boundary Water and occasionally charter a Beneteau or equivalent. All ugly, but it makes little difference to my enjoyment.

When I build it's different. I take great pleasure in creating something beautiful and my hope that it will increase it's lifespan if people want to take care of it.

[WI-Tom]

^^^

Good post there. I've only sailed in the Apostles once--the need to reserve campsites ahead of time, while understandable, makes me a bit uneasy about having a schedule you can't easily deviate from. And I think a lack of schedules and set agendas can be a signficant safety measure for small boats, especially when the water's as cold as Lake Superior.

Most people I know who have a Hobie with the Mirage drive love it--I've never tried it but it does look like it can move a boat along. What is it you don't like about it?

Tom

[mattglynn]

Dang you guys are making me homesick! Being a Michigan boy I love reading your stories Tom, and now I'll be day dreaming about being back in the Apostles.


I agree about the mirage drive. For one you can't beach with it, so its a bit of a hassle taking off and coming in, but mainly my issue is the motion. Pushing back and forth with the legs for some reason doesn't allow me to get in the right rhythm for a long duration steady state activity. Rowing and something like cross-country skiing use most major muscle groups in a very efficient full body motion. Once you have the basic technique down its very easy for me to settle into the rhythmic fluid motion and enjoy hours of zone 2 (heart rate) exertion. I don't know if anyone else feels this way but thats been my experience with mirage vs rowing, or even paddling.

[Paul Pless]

Jfitzger, that was a thought provoking post. Thanks.

[jshaley]

-the need to reserve campsites ahead of time

Right, that is why I have this strange attraction for the birdwatcher's. Ability to sort of stealth camp. Pull in an out-of-the-way creek or marsh and camp. Sure, the SCAMP & Walkabout can do this as well with a boom tent. But the boom tent sort of announces your intentions. Welsford Sweet Pea is nice, but not so rowable. The venerable Hartley is nice but same rowing limitation

I take great pleasure in creating something beautiful

So then I run aground with this. I find most of the other designs mentioned prettier than the boxy birdwatchers

It's really wet which limits my time on Lake Superior to under three months

I went down the Wharram rabbit hole for a while. But the wet sailing puts me off too. Maybe.

One attribute we have not mentioned is what the boat does during it's 99% time of non-use. A cover in the backyard? I would be concerned about a varmint boarding party. Scamp (which really seems to score high with all questions) would fit nicely in a garage. Walkabout as well.

[Jfitzger]

I've only sailed in the Apostles once--the need to reserve campsites ahead of time, while understandable, makes me a bit uneasy about having a schedule you can't easily deviate from. And I think a lack of schedules and set agendas can be a signficant safety measure for small boats, especially when the water's as cold as Lake Superior.

I agree 100% that trying to stick to a schedule can dangerous. The first trip I made I had a conversation about it with a ranger. He said to do your best to stick to your reservations but if the conditions make you uncomfortable, camp where you need to. A friend of mine was cruising alone and had stopped on Raspberry Island. Conditions got bad enough he didn't feel it was safe to leave. It's one the few islands with a ranger presence. Even though no camping is allowed they told him to camp for the night.

Kayakers tend to stick to the inner islands. I usually can have any of the outer islands without docks to myself.

Most people I know who have a Hobie with the Mirage drive love it--I've never tried it but it does look like it can move a boat along. What is it you don't like about it?

1 As mentioned by mattglynn, needing to pull it in before beaching isn't fun. It can also be a pain to get clicked back in when departing.

2 It would be extremely hard to build into a decked boat. A sit on top is the ideal.

3 I want to be sailing 80% of the time and it is extra drag and weight. When the wind is light I'd rather be poking along the shore, drifting quietly, hoping to spot wildlife or just sitting with some coffee and a book.

I like the idea of following Hugh Hortons advice and carrying a single paddle in addition to a double. All the near shore and sea cave paddeling would be better with a single.

Perhaps because I have cruised big boats, I want my beach cruiser to be as simple as possible. Having dealt with anchoring a 32' boat makes sailing onto a beach for the night feel like a luxury. I feel like I gain more through simplification than I would can by adding complexity.

[Juan]

I like this extreme Minimalism as a mental exercise to then think about the luxury of a huge, gigantic, 5.99 meters (19.64 feet) long sailboat with a monstrous 1.75 meters and 300 kilos weighted daggerboard.

...

[Juan]

...

The funny thing is that in the sailboat forums let's say 'normal' think I'm crazy because I like small sailboats, and in this forum it turns out that I am the supporter of large sailboats, Haha

[epoxyboy]

But as much as I was interested in the advantages of a small mizzen, I was not (and still am not) willing to give up a conventional tiller, which I love, for a push-pull (which I hate with a vehemence that goes beyond rationality).

Tom

FWIW, John's Pathfinder design (which I built as a yawl) just offsets the mizzen slightly to one side, and has a completely normal straight tiller.
If you can get past the slightly asymmetric look, it beats all the yokes, links, cables and weird looking bendy tillers hands down for simplicity, and I never noticed any difference between one tack and the other.

Pete

[Autonomous]

^^^ 100%.

[WI-Tom]

FWIW, John's Pathfinder design (which I built as a yawl) just offsets the mizzen slightly to one side, and has a completely normal straight tiller.
If you can get past the slightly asymmetric look, it beats all the yokes, links, cables and weird looking bendy tillers hands down for simplicity, and I never noticed any difference between one tack and the other.

Pete

I agree. Clint Chase's Calendar Islands Yawl has the same set-up, with a conventional tiller and offset mizzen mast. My Alaska, on the other hand...

It can (and has) been converted to a yawl with a small mizzen in the aft-deck mast step. But, I built my mast partner there in the center per plans before thinking about converting to a yawl mizzen there. And I'm not entirely sure the hull is wide enough at the transom to support an offset mizzen that would enable a conventional tiller.

Meanwhile, everything is still functional (and simpler in many ways, and definitely cheaper) with no mizzen. But there are times when it would be really nice to have a mizzen to hold the bow into the wind, no doubt.

But you make a good point that, if a mizzen is desired, an offset mizzen is probably the simplest way to do it while keeping a conventional tiller.

Tom

[Edward Pearson]

For that tiller mizzen problem...those of a nervous disposition should look away now. Each to his own etc...I've never seen anyone do this on a dinghy before.

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[WX]

Something around 16-18 foot with a cabin. Centerboard and minimal draught with the board up. Given my skills, probably hard or double chine.

[john welsford]

I'm getting close to launching day for my Long Steps, although the "original" of that design three years technically homeless ( living and touring in my little 6 metre class C motorhome, had a great time) she's only now that I'm resident in my own home with a decent workshop again so can put the finishing touches on.

My next build, being less than 10 mins walk away from a pretty good sized lake, will be a very light glued ply lapstrake rowing boat of about 14ft, maybe 15. 7 planks a side, one that with a little cart under her stern can be wheeled down the footpath to the water. I like rowing, there is nothing better than easing along under oars late on a full moon summer night and the exercise sure doesnt do me any harm.

John Welsford

[AJZimm]

Something around 16-18 foot with a cabin. Centerboard and minimal draught with the board up. Given my skills, probably hard or double chine.

Maybe you should build hull #2 of Tad Roberts CoPogy 18:

LOD = 18' Centreboard, yawl rig, board up draught = 9", stitch and tape ply construction, outboard motor in a well for all-day calms