New electric motor: Newport NT300

[AJBTC]

I came across this new motor on the internet. It claims to be 3 hp equivalent and is much cheaper than the equivalent Torqeedo, even if you bought their battery 36v 30aH. It says expected ship date and looks like an entirely new product or company so I was wondering if anyone had experience with this company or this product.

Unlike the Torqeedo it only seems to work from a remote battery, not one installed on the motor itself (actually an advantage in my mind, as you can put the battery somewhere else for ballast).

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to come in a long shaft version; the shaft is 24.6 inches.


https://newportvessels.com/products/...hoCl0sQAvD_BwE

[Sandlapper]

Sounds very good to me but the proof -- as they say. A variety of battery sources and location is a good thing. Price sounds good too.

[Rich Jones]

That's a third of the price of a Torqueedo 1003.
$700 for the battery. But it would need three 12 volt deep cycle batteries to run which would be the same price as their one lithium battery. So, a good deal.
The question is: is the motor worth the money or is it just a cheap knock-off?

[Lemsteraak]

You would be an early adopter. If you are using it in fresh water, that may work. They certainly have a nice warranty, 2 yrs on the motor and 10 years on the battery. The batteries seem to cause the most problems. My friend had a Torqueedo and liked it until he had battery issues and they are not cheap.

If you are electrically inclined it may be a lot of fun. I would think you could build your own li-ion battery from a set of EV modules, set up a battery management module and experiment from there. I used to think there would be no way an electric outboard would compare to a gas one, now I'm not so sure and am rooting for them.

[jpatrick]

I have a Torqeedo. The Newport seems to be a viable alternative if, as others said, it is a well made device. The remote battery is either a benefit or a nuisance depending on one's particular boat arrangement. On a dinghy, I would think it a complete bother, but used as an auxiliary on a bigger boat, maybe the battery is better kept in a locker. I don't like the semi-folded tiller on the Newport. That would cause me no end of grief when storing it aboard my day sailer.

In the end... any viable alternative to the Torqeedo is a good thing.

Jeff

[pez_leon]

Interesting! Newport is not a brand I associate with quality. I own their bottom-of-the-line 36 lb trolling motor. While there's nothing exactly wrong with it, there's also a lot that is not quite right. All of the fittings are cheap, squirt-gun quality plastic parts that interface poorly when new and quickly wear out. Having paid about $130 I was neither surprised nor dismayed, and the motor has served me well in some mild undemanding applications. But I wouldn't count on it in any kind of trouble.
It's very possible I am tarring with too broad a brush, but I would encourage prospective buyers to take a hard look at build quality.


- James

[JimConlin]

If it’s any good at all, it’ll force Torqueedo pricing to a reasonable level.
The Fein multitool price is about what it was twenty years ago.
PLease roll the dice and buy it.

[kbowen]

I would want more specs, like thrust equivalents and current draw. It says 1300 watts and it also says 3 Hp, at least one of these figures is a lie: It takes 746 watts to make a horsepower if you had (unobtainable) 100% efficiency. For those of us who hack around at the bleeding edge of alternative energy it would be great if we could tow the prospective loaded boat with a strain gauge, deduce the thrust needed at the speed we want, and look it up on the specs of the motor we are considering. It gets expensive doing multi-thousand dollar experiments. This is the information age, and I am willing to buy from a vendor who is selling good information with their product.

Ken

[Garret]

KBowen makes some excellent points! 1300 watts isn't even 2HP - more like 1.75 @ 100% efficiency - which doesn't happen. Then there's the 30 hours "max runtime" - using what for battery/batteries? What sort of speed on what sort of boat?

I'd love this to be a viable motor, but sense some snake oil.

[rgthom]

FWIW, all the electric outboard makers rate in HP equivalent not electrical power consumed. The claim is that around 1 kW electric has similar thrust to 3 HP ICE.
Electric motors are simpler and easier to make than gas motors so the price should come down as the market matures, not sure if this one is good quality though.

[Ben Fuller]

One of the issues for the larger electric outboards is that the companies that make them make really nice battery packs...... which weigh about 60 pounds. That means that the boat you are going to use it on will need shoreside power for a charge. Impossible on a boat that is moored, so you are going to need to go with the requisite number of smaller li batteries. At least on this one, the Newport people have a li battery that is portable and could get loaded into a dinghy.

[Neverland]

The Off Center Harbor guys seemed to like the EP Carry
https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...-carry-review/

[rgthom]

The Off Center Harbor guys seemed to like the EP Carry
https://www.offcenterharbor.com/vide...-carry-review/

I have one and I like it too! It is much lower power, only 250 W, but very efficient with a high aspect prop and no immersed motor nacelle.

[Toxophilite]

I wonder why they don't make them more attractive. Is it because their market would seem to be more modern glass or composite small fishing boats?
I feel the same way about the Torquedo. They seem to go for this star wars lego transformer vibe.

The EP carry is certainly more attractive, especially if you're going to hang it off a nicely built wooden boat. Like a little classic outboard.

I was given a 50lbs minn kota with some of the newer fancy efficiency features. It's an ugly somewhat ungainly beast but more streamline looking than this unit and being black somewhat less obtrusive, long shaft potential(adjustable) and approximately the same weight. Though the specs would say less than half the power output

I would think in a sailing dinghy a remote battery option would always be a good idea because then you could put the weight where it will work to your advantage in balancing the boat rather than the whole shebang hanging off the back.

Somebody should look to the outboards of the 50s and 60s when designing these units. Make them beautiful and functional rather than just angular and functional
Likely that's just personal preference though

[Lemsteraak]

I think the topic is straying to how the motor is used? A very good question, an electric motor behaves differently and different boats respond differently. My example is a 25' Nordic Folkboat. We used 5hp 2 stroke engines in the past but the little 2hp Honda became a favorite as it would produce almost as much usable power in a nicer package. The new little EP Carry is so well packaged that even though not as powerful, might be what you need.

[kbowen]

FWIW, all the electric outboard makers rate in HP equivalent not electrical power consumed. The claim is that around 1 kW electric has similar thrust to 3 HP ICE.

This thread is a couple weeks old, but I wonder if anyone else gets bent the way I do about horsepower inflation? The fact that an advertised 3hp outboard does not do anywhere near 3 Hp of work should unleash the department of weights and measures and get dragged up on false advertising. I think people get numbed by advertising claims and that this is part of the reason we have an energy problem. People don't have a clear idea of how much energy they use. I think exercise machines should be rated in watts and people should feel how much they need to bust their ass to generate 150 watts. I saw a household vacuum cleaner advertised at 6 horsepower, which plugged into a standard wall outlet. This is not only impossible, but it means that anyone who buys it has never stood next to a team of 6 Belgian draft horses, or they would have called extreme BS.

Ken

[Garret]

This thread is a couple weeks old, but I wonder if anyone else gets bent the way I do about horsepower inflation? The fact that an advertised 3hp outboard does not do anywhere near 3 Hp of work should unleash the department of weights and measures and get dragged up on false advertising. I think people get numbed by advertising claims and that this is part of the reason we have an energy problem. People don't have a clear idea of how much energy they use. I think exercise machines should be rated in watts and people should feel how much they need to bust their ass to generate 150 watts. I saw a household vacuum cleaner advertised at 6 horsepower, which plugged into a standard wall outlet. This is not only impossible, but it means that anyone who buys it has never stood next to a team of 6 Belgian draft horses, or they would have called extreme BS.

Ken

Or been covered in extreme HS - depending on which end stood next to.

More seriously - I agree, "peak HP" & just plain incorrect power figures are indeed false advertising & should be prosecuted. However, this has been going on for a long time. My dad was chief electrical engineer for Electrolux vacuums from the 30's into the 70's - IOW the man who designed the motors & blowers. At every new model rollout he'd have a fight with marketing over the power of the cleaner - they'd want the number inflated. Most every time, he'd have to go to the legal department & get them to explain to marketing what lawsuits over inflated numbers might cost. Of course the possibility of a suit was greater back then.

[Breakaway]

On hp, electric motor equivalent hp may be derived as a function of torque rather than watts. The kW rating, I think, is the draw, not the output.

In any event, electric motors deliver full torque throughout the operating range as opposed to IC engines which will have a peak torque at a narrow band of rpm. So a propeller turned by an electric motor is absorbing max torque ( full thrust) always. The IC engine prop may not have max torque available at the engine speed ( or speed range) that it is cruised at in a given application.

Since HP = RPM x Torque/ 5250, if the electric motor is given a hp equivalent rating based on the rpm a typical IC engine would be run in a similar application, I can see where a derived hp equivalent might come into play.

Happy to be corrected on any of these points.

Kevin

Edit: I realized I left out propeller characteristics. I did this for simplicity.


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[leaotis]

if they just measured the thrust, maybe with different props and at different speeds.

[Nicholas Carey]

By definition, 1 horsepower is the amount of work required to lift 550 pounds 1 foot in 1 second.

As it happens, that works out to be about 746 watts (745.7, actually, if you want to be pedantic).

Their "1300w peak power" is not "3HP equivalent".

[Breakaway]

By definition, 1 horsepower is the amount of work required to lift 550 pounds 1 foot in 1 second.

As it happens, that works out to be about 746 watts (745.7, actually, if you want to be pedantic).

Their "1300w peak power" is not "3HP equivalent".

Yes. On paper, and technically, correct.

But, out on the water, we know that two engines of identical hp, and on the same boat, deliver different performance. Why? Torque characteristics of the engines vary.

So, " equivalent" is the key word. A torquier engine will deliver better performance for the same rpm. An electric engine delivering full torque at every rpm will likely deliver performance equivalent to a more powerful ( on paper) IC engine.

This concept has long been known and proven in the re-powering of gas-powered boats with diesel engines. If a diesel is chosen to replace a gas engine, it is almost always of smaller HP rating than the gas mill it replaces. A common example might be replacing a 310-hp V8 gas engine with an inline-6 diesel rated at 240 hp. I have personally been involved with at least two dozen such repowers.

Why does the disparity in power rating result in equivalent performance? Torque. Diesel engines deliver more of it. As do electric motors.

That's why I brought another definition of power into the discussion: HP = RPM x Torque/ 5250. Using this formula, one can see that the quantity of torque effects the quantity of HP.

Kevin

[AJBTC]

Here's my issue with the numbers discussion (apart from the math involved )

I don't know what any of these numbers actually mean in terms of performance. I've never used a motor with certain watts or torque ratings. But I know what a 2hp engine does to my small sailboat, and if electric outboard companies want to use that number to tell me which of their products I should buy, fine with me. While they may be technically incorrect it doesn't seem false to me unless their 2hp model doesn't perform like a 2hp gas engine (other than the inherent differences in gas vs. electric)

[Nicholas Carey]

Yes. On paper, and technically, correct.

But, out on the water, we know that two engines of identical hp, and on the same boat, deliver different performance. Why? Torque characteristics of the engines vary.

So, " equivalent" is the key word. A torquier engine will deliver better performance for the same rpm. An electric engine delivering full torque at every rpm will likely deliver performance equivalent to a more powerful ( on paper) IC engine.

This concept has long been known and proven in the re-powering of gas-powered boats with diesel engines. If a diesel is chosen to replace a gas engine, it is almost always of smaller HP rating than the gas mill it replaces. A common example might be replacing a 310-hp V8 gas engine with an inline-6 diesel rated at 240 hp. I have personally been involved with at least two dozen such repowers.

Why does the disparity in power rating result in equivalent performance? Torque. Diesel engines deliver more of it. As do electric motors.

That's why I brought another definition of power into the discussion: HP = RPM x Torque/ 5250. Using this formula, one can see that the quantity of torque effects the quantity of HP.

Kevin

Torque and horsepower are two different things. Hence dynamometer tests and the prevalence of graphs showing torque curves (torque v. RPM) for different engines.

Speed or torque? All things being equal, you can have one only at the expense of the other.

I have a 50 cc Honda Ruckus, a scoot that gets highly customized. People tend to give it longer swingarms and larger wheels. To get higher speeds.

That works, so long as you don't mind execrable acceleration and losing the ability to go uphill.

TANSTAAFL: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

[Breakaway]

Torque and horsepower are two different things. Hence dynamometer tests and the prevalence of graphs showing torque curves (torque v. RPM) for different engines.

Speed or torque? All things being equal, you can have one only at the expense of the other.

I have a 50 cc Honda Ruckus, a scoot that gets highly customized. People tend to give it longer swingarms and larger wheels. To get higher speeds.

That works, so long as you don't mind execrable acceleration and losing the ability to go uphill.

TANSTAAFL: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

Your response is a non sequitur. I never referenced a free lunch.

Power isnt what turns a prop. Torque turns a prop. More torque means a bigger prop can be swung for any given rpm. That is true even if the engine with more torque produces less power.

The discussion is about comparing two different engines ( engine v motor) not optimizing an individual engine for best speed or torque.

What size prop does your Honda Scooter turn? What is the pitch of the wheels? How about the blade area? The disc-area ratio? How much do the wheels slip?

Oh, wait. None of those attributes are applicable to a scooter, are they?

Kevin

[kbowen]

Right! I think all of the above discussion might be suggesting that we are lacking standards, and where we have standards, we lack enforcement. Many have basically (and perhaps subconsciously) said that IC outboards are advertised at a higher hp than they deliver, which is the only way a 1500 watt electric can deliver the same energy as a so-called "3 hp" gas motor. Given the huge variables in prop size, etc, I wonder if anyone in the industry could get onboard with a real-world thrust test? For every new motor, bolt it to a strain gauge on the back of a boat and see how much push it delivers at different speeds. This would look like a graph of thrust vs speed. If you had this, you could then tow your loaded boat with a big fish scale or strain gauge and see how much thrust it needs to get up to 5 mph, or whatever. Match your boat up to the graph of the motor you are considering and you should have a good idea of whether the motor will do it. amiright? what am I missing, besides the fact that the industry likes slick advertising more than data?

Ken

[Breakaway]

^ Would not work, Ken. Too many variables for such testing to produce anything a variety of boatowners could extrapolate from

Think about it: What engine mounting height? What mounting setback? What propeller? What boat? Planing? Displacement? Light? Heavy? CG aft? CG amidships? Water density?

Such testing as you outline does exist in the commercial marine space. ( Google: Bollard Pull Test) But they test the vessel; not just the engine. The vessel with X engine installed is given a rating. It is useful for a very narrow band of boat type only.

As for a lack of data? What HP interests you?

Mercury: https://performancedata.mercurymarine.com/

Yanmar: https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/1gm10/

Caterpillar: (N Scroll to bottom and download for MHP/BHP/HP/IMO etc https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/n...000023967.html

These are just examples. Same can be found for other makers.

This data does not solve the problem of comparing electric to IC, though. Comparing IC versus IC, we can look at bore, stroke, displacement, valve timing, heat dissipation, and other factors to understand why two engines with the exact same maximum power rating will perform differently in a specific application. But those same factors are absent from an electric motor.

There is one factor that is the same, though. Torque. Therein lies the key to making the best comparison.


Kevin

[kbowen]

Breakaway:
Let's say for a moment we limit the scope to displacement speeds, a boat under 6 tons, and a possible conversion to electric? My hope would be that we could find some way to specify an electric conversion for a variety of boats in that general range. It would seem to be in the interests of the budding electric boat propulsion industry for them to figure out some way for an average dude to spec. an electric conversion. Is there any way?? The articles I have read in our host magazine basically boil down to "my dealer said this would work." I suspect that the attempts that didn't work well never turned into a published article.
My personal agenda is that I might want to increase my sailboat's capabilities under electric power. I am pushing my 26' sailboat 4 mph in a flat calm with about 50 amps at 24 volts in a Minnkota 80# trolling motor. I would want more speed to buck a tide, and more thrust to get to a dock against a headwind. The question is how many Kilo-buck$ will it take for how much gain?

Ken

[Zane Lewis]

Sorry I'm still calling out this electric 1kw is worth more than an IC 1kw.
An IC engine has a torque curve and most are reasonably flat across the operational range. Excluding the top and bottom ends.
An Electric engine generally is a 1:1 drive so yes it has more torque but also far fewer revs. That why the IC motor has a gear box. (Ok the gear box will take up to 15% of the engine power vs a direct drive electric with only the drag of the seals.

so a 1300 watt motor at full speed can only put just under 1300 watts into the water via a propeller. The IC motor at full power can put 3hp (1900 watts after allowed 15% for gearbox) thats still 46% more power in the water at full throttle.
Even at 1/4 throttle the IC motor is still in it's flat torque band so the same torque is available to the prop.
Note however that in most cases as prop revs increase so does the torque requirement.
ie a prop at 25% or 50% of max revs requires a lot less torque that at max revs or after hitting hull speed, so lots of torque at low shaft speeds is irrelevant.

PS I would love to have electric to replace a diesel inboard (20-25hp) but I need to be able to motor sail at 1/2 revs for 24 hours and at say full power for say 30 minutes to get around a headland or through a tide flow.
Z

[Breakaway]

To reiterate, I am not saying you will get more power from one or the other engine/ motor with the same kW ratings.

I am saying that the performance each delivers to the boat will be different. This is because of different torque characteristics, and thus, the different propeller each is able to turn without damage for extended periods.

Again, this is proven in untold numbers of IC engine boat repowers. Replace a gas engine rated at larger HP/ kW with a lesser rated diesel and the boat gets the same, or better, cruising speed and acceleration.

Now, diesel v gas is not the the same as either v electric, I grant you. But, this repeatedly documented on-water scenario shows that high-power equivalent performance can be delivered by a propulsor with a lower power rating. Why? Basically because of different torque characteristics.

Kevin


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[Zane Lewis]

Hi Kevin,
I appreciate your wording above.
And yes i agree that with you that higher torque and lower prop rpm's will allow you to spin a larger diameter prop with possibly more pitch which will provide quicker acceleration and braking and better performance at low and medium throttle settings.
Just looking at the prop details for the 1300 watt motor I see it spins a >9" dia 2 bladed prop while a 3hp IC motor will spin at most a 7" 3 bladed.
At the same time I know that in our little RIB the 3.3 hp will give 9.9 knots 1 up (90 kg of person and gear).

So just a quick look would suggest that if I was pushing a slow heavy load the electric motor with its larger prop would do better. So I agree with you on this.
Same as our old seagull with a 4:1 reduction driving the 5 bladed hydrofan prop vs a newer Outboard with say 2:1 and a 8" 3 bladed prop.
One gives speed , the other thrust.

PS I too would be keen to move to electric but it's battery technology, weight and cost that's holding me back for now. I probably would need 50kw of storage.
Zane