I think I agree with a Republican!

[Breakaway]

IMO, a bit of straw in this one! So.... who should decide? Me? You? How about..... the pt/family/physician/psych team? Hmmm? That'd be my preference.

I dont think letting those who perform the service for a profit decide is a good idea.

Kids shouldn’t be able to make this decision before the age of consent.

Kevin


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[Jimmy W]

How old should you be before deciding what to do with your body?

A top Republican in the Oklahoma Senate wants to ban all gender reassignment surgeries for people under 26 years old.

Calling it "a permanent solution to a temporary problem," state Sen. David Bullard, R-Durant, claimed that most medical intervention for transgender people violates the Hippocratic Oath, which requires doctors to do no harm.

"We want to make sure that if we're going to do a procedure like this that is irreversible, then we want to make sure an individual is at their full maturity when it comes to cognitive development," said Bullard, who was recently picked by his GOP colleagues to serve as Senate Republican Caucus vice-chair during the 2023 session.

[Breakaway]

Age 26 IS a bit much.


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[L.W. Baxter]

Thank you and I can't disagree with you in general. Still, common sense seems to demand that there be limits on this. The proposal of setting a minimum age for this is really no different than it is for a great many other things.

Now, I doubt I will agree with anything else this @ssh@t is likely to say, and I have no doubt he is using this as a great big game of "Look! Squirrel!", but still it just does not seem unreasonable to me.

well, maybe, but, gender dysmorphia is a real thing, right? rare, but real. rare, but it happens, even in oklahoma.

it's like being bipolar. or getting raped. do we need a governor deciding that you can't be treated? lie back and enjoy it.

it's culture war bull****, cw.

if you had a little girl born hermaphrodite with a penis (it happens in nature, in animals and plants, everything that lives), would you be happy to tell her to live with it until she's a grown up?

or if your daughter is raped, would you be happy to tell her to carry the baby because it is god's will.

if you had a suicidal son who needs meds, would you be satisfied to make him wait until he is "of age" to be treated. when, you know, he might not make it to the age of majority.

governor stitt is playing political jackass with people's lives.

[CWSmith]

it's culture war bull****, cw.

I think it's a real question being used in a cultural war. I view the OP as a broken clock telling the correct time once or twice a day (24 or 12 hour clock).

Your hermaphrodite comment is valid, but that's multiple genitals that should be resolved. We're talking about "I feel I am a woman..." which is not the same thing.

Your rape and suicide comments are not relevant.

[L.W. Baxter]

I think it's a real question being used in a cultural war. I view the OP as a broken clock telling the correct time once or twice a day (24 or 12 hour clock).

Your hermaphrodite comment is valid, but that's multiple genitals that should be resolved. We're talking about "I feel I am a woman..." which is not the same thing.

Your rape and suicide comments are not relevant.

how do you know, "it's not the same thing". how could you possibly know.

the relevance of my other examples is that we have made progress as a society in how we treat vulnerable people. beyond increasing social awareness and acceptance, science and technology offer practical and compassionate solutions, if we allow them.

this suggested law "outlawing" gender reassignment treatment is culturally retrograde, and intentional reactionary politics. it is part of a larger campaign to turn back acceptance of otherness, in this case to withhold available help from the vulnerable in the name of "traditional" values. read: "the values of society when people like me (white christian patriarch) ran it with no opposition."

[CWSmith]

this suggested law "outlawing" gender reassignment treatment is culturally retrograde, and intentional reactionary politics. it is part of a larger campaign to turn back acceptance of otherness, in this case to withhold available help from the vulnerable in the name of "traditional" values. read: "the values of society when people like me (white christian patriarch) ran it with no opposition."

Let's be clear - it outlaws gender reassignment treatment for minors.

As for the rest and what he will attempt next, we don't need to agree with him.

[L.W. Baxter]

minors are people too, cw.

minors can be abused. they can kill themselves. they can hurt ohers. they can be damaged beyond being repaired as adults.

and there is no reason to let governor stitt have any influence over things he doesn't understand and wouldn't care to know,

[C. Ross]

I know three transgender kids (two now over 18).

It was really really hard for those families and kids to work through it. They took different approaches and had different outcomes. The parents agonized. The kids felt in agony. My conclusion is that if a governor said “this is a very difficult issue and I wish parents both Godspeed and informed advice from medical professionals” I’d agree with them. A governor who supported legislation that both provided access to care and also wanted to regulate some aspects of care for transgender kids under 18 - like requiring a qualified non-biased psychological evaluation before surgery for someone under 18, or making hormone treatments available but a higher bar for surgery - yeah maybe. A governor deciding what those parents and kids may not do is wrong imo.

[CWSmith]

Okay. I've said my piece. If a person is judged too irresponsible to drive a car, I don't think they should be deciding on gender reassignment surgery. YMMD.

[heimlaga]

here's what i think. when upwards of around 90% of all gender dysmorphic teens grow out of it by adulthood without any life altering decisions made on their behalf.... it should be a CRIME to give out life altering hormones and perform body mutilating surgeries on minors. i don't give a rat's rear what any grown adult wants to do with themselves, just leave the kids out of it.

I agree. It is generally known that around 50% of boys growing up do at some point wish they were girls. And the other way around with girls at some point wishing they were boys. Before that has stabilized around age 20 nobody should start on those hormones nor surgeries. That is just plain common sence.

It would be much cheaper and easier and less invasive and more healthy to break down and scrap the gender stereotypes in society instead. If broadening the norms for how a woman or a man can be many more youngsters will feel that they fit in. Better mental health overall and less need for surgeries.

Once that is done I see nothing wrong with the few adults who really want to have that sort of surgery done. I don't understand them to the point that I have difficulties feeling any sympathies with them but common sence and logic reasoning tells me that they do nothing wrong and therefore should not be harassed nor even frowned upon.

By the way I am just as far from a republican as one can get politically. This was the first and probably last time ever that I have fully and wholeheatedly agreed with one of them.

[ShorelineJohn]

One of the real problems is our two party, with extremist on both side system. It polarizes issues that just need much more than just a this or that answer. I am sure that same governor would ban 1st or 2nd grade boys in dresses in school. Or how about a 14 year old boy in a mini skirt? He would go after the parents.
And the left is no better, I live in a "blue city" were a meth addict get more respect, compassion and funding than a smoker. Parents that smoke should be prosecuted for child abuse. I personally have heard that one more than once.
And the moment one pushes back on their own party you are labeled as the other side!
Happens every day on this forum.

[Keith Wilson]

One of the real problems is our two party, with extremist on both side system. It polarizes issues that just need much more than just a this or that answer.

While there are certainly fools on the left as well as the right, polarization today in the US is not symmetrical, not even close. Neo-fascist election deniers have a dozen representatives in Congress.

Chis Ross gets it exactly right, I think.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

One should be careful as to which Republican one agreed with.

[willin woodworks]

While there are certainly fools on the left as well as the right, polarization today in the US is not symmetrical, not even close. Neo-fascist election deniers have a dozen representatives in Congress.

Chis Ross gets it exactly right, I think.

Election deniers, climate deniers, civil rights deniers, vaccine deniers, abortion deniers, voting rights deniers, immigration rights deniers. The modern GOP is all about what they think other people cant or shouldnt do and they truly believe that they are the only moral arbiters. They need to learn to mind their own goddam business.

[LeeG]

How old should you be before deciding what to do with your body?

A top Republican in the Oklahoma Senate wants to ban all gender reassignment surgeries for people under 26 years old.

Calling it "a permanent solution to a temporary problem," state Sen. David Bullard, R-Durant, claimed that most medical intervention for transgender people violates the Hippocratic Oath, which requires doctors to do no harm.

"We want to make sure that if we're going to do a procedure like this that is irreversible, then we want to make sure an individual is at their full maturity when it comes to cognitive development," said Bullard, who was recently picked by his GOP colleagues to serve as Senate Republican Caucus vice-chair during the 2023 session.

And with that reasoning enlistment in military service should be delayed until 26

[LeeG]

LW is right on topic. It’s bs culture war crap from people who want authoritarian gov’t control in other people’s lives. These kids and families are fodder for them. Like sending migrants across the country in winter and dumping them on the streets in other cities. Or denying women acess to abortion.

[Breakaway]

I agree, too, that the proposal is likely driven more as a volley in the culture war than by concern for children.
But, disagreeing with the motive for legislation shouldn't be a reason to reject it out of hand, IMO.

Age 18; 16 with parents consent is where I would stand on this issue. Kids just cant make competent, life-altering decisions on their own with any regular competence. Too much going on in their bodies and brains.

Drinking laws, driving laws, military conscription and more have delved into this for a long time now and we should respect that societal knowledge. If we wish to challenge it, we should do so with more than just a dislike for the messenger.

Kevin

[George Jung]

I agree. It is generally known that around 50% of boys growing up do at some point wish they were girls. And the other way around with girls at some point wishing they were boys. Before that has stabilized around age 20 nobody should start on those hormones nor surgeries. That is just plain common sense.

You, as well, quoting stats without reference. I'd like to see what you are using as a source. Your '50%' doesn't ring true, for me.

I'd also support Mr. Ross' opinion on this. As well, point out all of the well-meaning, but biased, opinionated filling up this thread. For those of you voicing 'guidance' - do you actually have any background in this area? Expertise? Or just WAG's?

[Nicholas Carey]

LW is right on topic. It’s bs culture war crap from people who want authoritarian gov’t control in other people’s lives. These kids and families are fodder for them. Like sending migrants across the country in winter and dumping them on the streets in other cities. Or denying women access to abortion.

Yes. Just grandstanding for the idiots and bigots.

The number of these surgeries that the nutters want to prohibit is vanishingly small. On teens aged 13-17 from 2019–2022, just 56 genital surgeries and 776 "top" surgeries over the 3 years. From Reuters, "Putting numbers on the rise in children seeking gender care", published in October 2022,

The ultimate step in gender-affirming medical treatment is surgery, which is uncommon in patients under age 18. Some children’s hospitals and gender clinics don’t offer surgery to minors, requiring that they be adults before deciding on procedures that are irreversible and carry a heightened risk of complications.

The Komodo analysis of insurance claims found 56 genital surgeries among patients ages 13 to 17 with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis from 2019 to 2021. Among teens, “top surgery” to remove breasts is more common. In the three years ending in 2021, at least 776 mastectomies were performed in the United States on patients ages 13 to 17 with a gender dysphoria diagnosis, according to Komodo’s data analysis of insurance claims. This tally does not include procedures that were paid for out of pocket.

Top surgeries
U.S. patients ages 13-17 undergoing mastectomy with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis

• 2019 — 238
• 2020 — 256
• 2021 — 282

[Tom Wilkinson]

dont do that

I agreed with one today too. They posted this pic claiming it was Joe Biden. They were not smart enough to realize what they are calling a piece of sh$t was actually Trump roughly 4 years ago. I heartily agreed with the photo though.



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[George Jung]

I tell you what, answer my questions about healing by prayer and pedophilia and then we'll discuss genital mutilation.

I want to see if you draw the line anywhere before we discuss where.

A bit 'nasty' there, CW. Uncalled for.

If a parent is opposed to medical treatment and uses prayer exclusively to combat a child's cancer, do we as a society owe anything to that child in the way of protection? I think we do, although many disagree with that.

Of course.

If a parent believes that pedophilia is a natural part of family life, does the state have the right to intervene?

More straw, I see. Do you know anyone who thinks this way? I don't - and would suggest a parent pedophile wouldn't be considered on the right side of the law. Your implication as to 'my stance' is abhorent.

If a parent believes that Bobby gets what Bobby wants, or that males are evil (as some do), does the state have the right to intervene?

There comes a point where a person is considered an adult and can make irreversible life-altering decisions, but shouldn't we set rules for child protection until that point?

You're saying 'the state', and in this case, a RWW politician using these kids as political fodder, should have the say, rather than parents and medical/mental health professionals. I'd disagree - and would also say that neither you, nor I, should be making that decision, either.

[LOKI]

As the father of a transgender son, I think that maybe I have a better grasp of matters here. My son was obviously not a girl from his first words and steps. Caused us much confusion for many years until we learned of such cases. My son, after many years of anguish is now a very loving and well balanced person contributing to society as a counsellor to disadvantaged and mentally challenged individuals. Nobody gets to change genders without many hours of medical evaluations for them and their parents, believe me I know! For all who would parrot the repubs BS ,I wish you would all just STFU about that which you don't know!!!! This is a very private issue that is no matter to those not involved directly...

[Keith Wilson]

Thank you.

[AlanMc]

LOKI, while i don't really care how your child chooses to live their life as long as they are happy, truly... it's fine by me. but i also don't buy the "it was obvious they were another gender from their first words and steps". who are you really trying to sell that story to?

[CWSmith]

You're saying 'the state', and in this case, a RWW politician using these kids as political fodder, should have the say, rather than parents and medical/mental health professionals. I'd disagree - and would also say that neither you, nor I, should be making that decision, either.

I'm sorry you felt I was being nasty, George, but I was trying to make a point and too many people here won't even look at the issue.

Our society makes rules protecting children all the time. If you agree with that practice, then the real question is what should be on the list AND WHY?

Also, you again mix the issue with the politician. That logic is as bad as Republicans who oppose anything a Democrat says. We need to separate the source from the issue on a case by case basis and decide what is right. That is what people should do in a democracy.

Now you obviously agree that children must be protected from parents in some matters of health and sexual predation. The question now becomes whether gender reassignment surgery falls onto that list. I think it does because a child who is too young to drive a car or serve in the military probably isn't ready to make life-altering, irreversible decisions like this.

That's my opinion. I'd like to know how you think they are ready to decide such things.

[LOKI]

LOKI, while i don't really care how your child chooses to live their life as long as they are happy, truly... it's fine by me. but i also don't buy the "it was obvious they were another gender from their first words and steps". who are you really trying to sell that story to?

AlanMc I am not selling any story to anyone. I've had you on ignore forever, for good reason. Get stuffed you ignorant POS. Your prejudices should not rule over other people. As I stated, those not involved should just STFU. Until you are affected by the issue ,please save your judgments to yourself!!

[Tom Wilkinson]

LOKI, while i don't really care how your child chooses to live their life as long as they are happy, truly... it's fine by me. but i also don't buy the "it was obvious they were another gender from their first words and steps". who are you really trying to sell that story to?

Gotta be one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read here, and that says something.


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[LOKI]

I apologise to the Bilge denizens for my previous outburst. I lost control of my emotions. I still stand by my words but I didn't need to expose the rest of you to them...

[AlanMc]

AlanMc I am not selling any story to anyone. I've had you on ignore forever, for good reason. Get stuffed you ignorant POS. Your prejudices should not rule over other people. As I stated, those not involved should just STFU. Until you are affected by the issue ,please save your judgments to yourself!!

you do you man. i really don't care. though i would be moderately interested to hear how the first steps and first words of a toddler were obviously evidence of a child being the wrong gender. also, if you'd like to dial the rhetoric back a bit and tell us when you actually thought the child was a different gender, i'd be all ears.

[AlanMc]

Gotta be one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read here, and that says something.


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i guess we'll put you down in the "even toddlers should be able to change genders medically b/c they know" category. i'll just hang out on the ignorant side that doesn't believe that garbage.

[LOKI]

Not sure I could put it into a 5 second sound bite for you. It was only 16 years of living with my child that was involved. I could continue but I do like being able to read the forum....

[Tom Wilkinson]

i guess we'll put you down in the "even toddlers should be able to change genders medically b/c they know" category. i'll just hang out on the ignorant side that doesn't believe that garbage.

Make assumptions all you want. You are the one calling out someone else’s life experience that you have no knowledge of. That is pretty much the definition of ignorance. You haven’t lived their life or known their experiences but you choose to judge them based on your own personal beliefs.

I choose to let them make their own decisions based on what they know of the situation and trust them when they speak about that experience, especially when it is such a personal and controversial subject.


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[Tom Wilkinson]

Not sure I could put it into a 5 second sound bite for you. It was only 16 years of living with my child that was involved. I could continue but I do like being able to read the forum....

You are a class act.


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[AlanMc]

LOKI, i can believe that statement. 16 years is a decent data set and you can do you with that info. i still wouldn't affirm my own teenager's ideas about changing genders, but those are my kids. if one of my adult children wanted to go that route, that's an entirely different story.