Love in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe

[David G]

From the desk of my favorite cleric...

February 5, 2023 - URC Reflection ---

There are two magics, and the difference between them matters. The deep magic, for instance, tells us that ethics and justice matter. The traitor cannot act with impunity or the world will devolve into chaos.

On the other hand, the deeper magic, older and wiser even than the deep one, tells us that love will transform the traitor, that forgiveness is a virtue, and that willing sacrifice overturns evil and sets things right again. That we need to do this over and over is simply the inherent nature of matter and time. If we are embodied, we will know pain. If we have life, we will die. But the myths remind us that death is not the end. Even if anti-matter destroys everything we know, there will still be love.


MORE --

https://urcpdx.org/love-in-the-lion-...Fg89QpNwmuAYZ0

[sandtown]

The very concept of "traitor" presupposes that extreme nationalism is a legitimate thing.

It is not.

[Peerie Maa]

The very concept of "traitor" presupposes that extreme nationalism is a legitimate thing.

It is not.

Well it could, but not always.

traitor

/ˈtreɪtə/
noun
noun: traitor; plural noun: traitors
a person who betrays someone or something, such as a friend, cause, or principle.
"he was a traitor to his own class"

or from https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor traitor

noun
trai·​tor ˈtrā-tər
Synonyms of traitor
1
: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty

[Garret]

The very concept of "traitor" presupposes that extreme nationalism is a legitimate thing.

It is not.

Nick was more polite than me, but you really need to look up definitions before posting such drivel.

[David G]

The very concept of "traitor" presupposes that extreme nationalism is a legitimate thing.

It is not.

I do believe you've focused on the wrong thing... tangential to the point of the essay.

[Ted Hoppe]

the lion, the witch and the wardrobe is a christian parable.



We are just as likely to find the return of this king...

[Hallam]

the lion, the witch and the wardrobe is a christian parable.



We are just as likely to find the return of this king...

The wisdom within the parable stands on its own irrespective of a faith based acceptance of the divinity of the central character. The concept of love being the virtue that brings forth life, unity in relationships, transformation and growth in individuals and healing in damaged psyche. Love, like salt preserves meat, will be and is the ingredient that prevents the whole $h!t show from rapid decline and entropy into absolute and irrevocable decline.
The faith based assertion is Jesus died, Elvis died, life is eternal, love is eternal and will find a way, has found a way, our understanding is incomplete, how can the finite encompass the infinite? It is the infinite that encompasses the finite.

[LeeG]

only two magics? Once you have the name game going why stop at two?

[David G]

The wisdom within the parable stands on its own irrespective of a faith based acceptance of the divinity of the central character.

The concept of love being the virtue that brings forth life, unity in relationships, transformation and growth in individuals and healing in damaged psyche. Love, like salt preserves meat, will be and is the ingredient that prevents the whole $h!t show from rapid decline and entropy into absolute and irrevocable decline.

The faith based assertion is Jesus died, Elvis died, life is eternal, love is eternal and will find a way, has found a way, our understanding is incomplete, how can the finite encompass the infinite? It is the infinite that encompasses the finite.

Yes...

And the essay is about the distinction between our very-human urge toward punishment... and the (next level?) approach espoused by Gandhi, MLK, Jesus, et.al. that says the magic of love, if applied broadly, will eventually win out.

[lupussonic]

You can find deep Buddhist meaning in the ten o'clock news if you need to.

[lupussonic]

Win out against what? Death? Disease? Earthquakes?

David. What will love win out against, if broadly applied, in your opinion?

What did we learn from Ghandi or MLK or Jesus that can be and is applied on a day to day accepted basis beyond basic intelligent behaviour?

I posit not much.

[Hallam]

It could be said that there is a distinction between love an intelligence. An extremely intelligent person is capable of hatred to the extent of unjustified murder. A rather unintelligent person is capable of consistent and disciplined love. If we count emotional intelligence as part of overall intelligence then the distinction is not so great but still exists.

[lupussonic]

What are we talking about please?

What are we defining as 'love'?

[L.W. Baxter]

Yes...

And the essay is about the distinction between our very-human urge toward punishment... and the (next level?) approach espoused by Gandhi, MLK, Jesus, et.al. that says the magic of love, if applied broadly, will eventually win out.

it is no accident that gandhi and mlk jr were both successful in leading non violent movements against oppressors who were themselves struggling to live up to enlightenment principles. in other words, their moral appeal was met (eventually) by moral introspection and change.

that is not really the common way of the world. peaceful appeals to what is right are more often met by violence and obliteration.

ask the ukrainians fighting the russian invader to turn the other cheek. because love wins in the end? hard to see that as more than wishful thinking through the eyes of the forgotten dead.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Probably. But in this case, CS Lewis was a well-known episcopal theologian who did fiction (besides the lion, the witch I can remember the Screwtape Letters) as a way to introduce his theology in an interesting way to a lot of people who otherwise would run away and hide when they saw him coming

Nicely put. Add the science fiction, which is well coated with allegory.

Let’s throw in the well known and somewhat complex relationship with Tolkien. At one point in the notes to LOTR, Tolkien says “I cordially despise allegory in all its forms…” This is significant because Lewis and Tolkien were both members of the Oxford University English faculty and both were well known. Tolkien’s significant work was his edition of the late 14th century anonymous poem “Sir Gawain and the Green Knight”, but Lewis’s was much larger. His magnum opus was “The Allegory of Love”, a wide scale review of Troubadour poetry and the concept of romantic love.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Allegory_of_Love

These two volumes were the bane of my first term at university and of the two I vastly preferred Lewis! Professor Tolkien is as dry as dust. I never grew to love the Gawain-poet, but Lewis led me to Gower and then more happily to Mallory and to Spenser. It is possible to read Chaucer, Mallory and Spenser for pleasure. The Gawain poet has his eye on religion at all times and coats the pill with less sugar.

Now, Lewis was a convert to the Episcopal Church of a rather hearty and rugger playing kind and Tolkien was an English cradle Catholic (a very odd group, not to.be confused with other cradle Catholics; look at Jacob Rees-Mogg to see a fine example!). The surprising thing is not that they fell out, but that they were ever friends at all!

Ultimately Tolkien turns out the LOTR which is a masterpiece and which is so thickly coated with sugar that most people read it without even spotting that they have just swallowed a dose of dead straight main stream Catholicism. And was very rude about the allegory that his one time friend had devoted his life to!

[WI-Tom]

Ultimately Tolkien turns out the LOTR which is a masterpiece and which is so thickly coated with sugar that most people read it without even spotting that they have just swallowed a dose of dead straight main stream Catholicism. And was very rude about the allegory that his one time friend had devoted his life to!

Huh. That's not an interpretation I would've thought to make of LOTR. What am I missing?

What I see is a basis in Germanic mythology: the very idea of the ring as embodiment of evil and the rejection of love; and--in related posthumous works like "Children of Hurin" a focus on the inevitability of one's fate--a classical tragedy, almost.

Certainly in Morgoth vs. Manwe we have a theology that echoes "Paradise Lost"--war in heaven and what-not, with the Enemy fighting a battle he is doomed to fail. And, of course, the echoes of being driven out of Paradise for obeying God's commands (the Numenoreans seeking immortality by sailing to the forbidden West echoing the Christian story of eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil making humans "like God." Gandalf as Christ figure? Sure, I can see that. So lots of parallels for sure.

But it doesn't add up to anything Christian in my mind, much less Catholic.

The elves and the contrast of immortal beings who cannot live beyond the circles of the world, and humans, who must die, but are promised that death is a "gift" and they will move beyond the circle of Middle Earth--here, too, it doesn't add up to Christian themes for me, despite the parallels. It seems older, wilder, more pagan-infused. Let's not forget that "Middle Earth" itself is a nod to Norse, rather than Christian, theology.

What makes you think it's "dead straight mainstream Catholicism"? I'd be interested in hearing more.

C.S. Lewis's allegorical style makes the Christianity in the Narnia books painfully, simplistically obvious for me. I much prefer Tolkien.

Tom

[Keith Wilson]

Tolkien's Catholicism doesn't really show in LOTR at all, and you can happily read it without ever noticing. I did, in fact, at a young and impressionable age. The larger history of Middle Earth (Melkor/Morgoth's fallen-angel rebellion against God) is another matter. When I read The Chronicles of Narnia after just about living in Middle-Earth for a year or so at age 13, the allegory was hideously obvious. I gagged on it.