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Thread: some comments on reducing police violence

  1. #1
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    Default some comments on reducing police violence

    1097 people were killed by police in 2022
    up 42 from the year before

    from this u of m study: https://sites.fordschool.umich.edu/p...olicing-pb.pdf


    • cameras reduce use of force
    • black and women officers are less likely to use force
    • stricter gun laws help reduce fatal interactions with police
      • that fear, that vigilance really of anyone and everyone that they encounter may have a gun does look like it drives more police shootings

    • fatal shootings by officers were 50% higher in cities with white chiefs rather than black ones
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Training
    Police Scotland hosts American officers in policing masterclass



    Police Scotland senior officers have come together with their opposite numbers from American police departments in an effort to improve public trust and confidence in policing in both countries.

    For several years, Police Scotland has been involved with work with the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF) and 14 senior officers travelled from Scotland to Washington DC to meet colleagues from a number of American agencies to take part in the latest phase of the International Collaboration on Policing (ICoP) masterclass in March 2022.
    The programme’s vision is to share experience and improvement ideas on legitimacy while enabling the development of strategic leaders and effective networks.
    Police Scotland officers experienced a number of significant learning inputs during their visit, including from the chiefs of Washington’s Metropolitan Police Department and Baltimore Police, as well as from US Capitol Police about the attack on 6 January, 2021.



    They met officers in Fairfax County Police Department to learn about its Incident Support Services team, which focuses on officer welfare, using a peer support team, chaplaincy service, therapists, and a K9 programme to assist employee mental health and wellbeing.
    Further learning took place around attracting millennials and generation Z into policing, as well as the importance of police officers understanding the communities they serve, through the DC police policy of training all officers in African-American history and culture.
    The visit concluded with the group completing a Law Enforcement and Society (LEAS) training programme exploring the role of police in a democracy, which has so far trained more than 140,000 officers across the US.
    Fifteen American delegates from major police departments, including New York, Los Angeles and Tucson, made a reciprocal visit to Scotland last week (17-22 May, 2022).
    They heard about the reform journey of Police Scotland, before touring the Scottish Parliament, learning about Parliamentary and Royal Protection policing operations, and from Chief Superintendent Sean Scott on policing the capital.
    https://www.scotland.police.uk/what-...g-masterclass/

    A relationship that began in 2015
    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/n...dly-force.html
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 02-02-2023 at 07:34 AM.
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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    I agree with Nick.
    In my country it takes at least 2 years of training to become a police officer, a fully qualified one has had almost 4 years of training in total. From what I read the average police officer in the USA gets 6 months (or less) training.
    Although it's hard to compare the countries our police officers seem to be more proficient in deescalation skills and more thoughtful use of force. The number of (accidental or deliberate) deaths by police force is very low, 13 in 2021. When you extrapolate that to the number of inhabitants of the USA that would be approximately 244 deaths a year.

    And of course there's the big elephant in the room, get rid of all those guns and the numbers will go down rapidly.
    Last edited by dutchpp; 02-02-2023 at 07:52 AM.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    1097 people were killed by police in 2022


    More than by cougars and bears combined.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Although it's hard to compare the countries our police officers seem to be more proficient in deescalation skills and more thoughtful use of force.
    I think you also need to consider a national culture of violence that is higher in this country. I would bet that any credible study would show that your police consider themselves to be more a part of the society they police.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    The necessary solution is to invent new ways to recruit and train, AND to radically change the current forces nationwide by replacing at least fifty percent of the personnel.
    The last I heard, a lot of police forces were recruiting out of the military and that is a horribly bad idea in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    What we really need is to have a national draft. Everyone who turns eighteen is subject to being enlisted as a cop, gets boot camp and advance training as if they were going to be life-time career cops.
    I could not disagree with you more strongly.
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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Training and ACCOUNTABILITY.

    FACT is many cops, even with video, are not held accountable.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    What would you rather have, more of the same, with a trend toward worse, or actual, substantive change?
    I'm not sure that it would create real change. First, there are A LOT of people who are not psychologically equipped for that work. Second, lots of good students who have many years of school ahead of them to become engineers, doctors, etc. that are of great service to our society will find their plans further delayed, pushing back until years later when they can get married, etc. It is highly disruptive.

    Let's make it simple. When a cop kills an unarmed person, they go to jail for 20 years. When the court finds that their body cam mysteriously malfunctioned, they get an extra 10 years. That will slow them down.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    subjecting police to the same standards as civilians involved in a shooting might make a dent in shootings of unarmed people.

    and maybe something like a federal law subjecting swat teams to charges when they break into the wrong house.

    if police shot fewer unarmed people the toxic relationship with the public might heal some, and the vicious cycle of escalation broken.

    oh, also, asset forfeiture rules need to go away. every time an innocent person gets property seized, another enemy is made.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    I had 27 years as a technician first with a large sheriffs office and then with the 911 system. My observations are that there is a huge us vs them problem, I especially noticed it at Seattle PD. It’s not just a racial thing. Police are right, and anyone not part of that “thin blue line” is either wrong or weak. Most of the Seattle guys did not live in Seattle, they live in the burbs. They enter “Indian Country” when they come to work. The Memphis murder just reeks of the gang mentality of groups within some departments.
    ITS CHAOS, BE KIND

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    I may be the only '60s vintage war resister who favors a universal draft because it sharpens interest in foreign policy but that's another matter. Vets who become police need to be trained first and right off that almost everything they learned in the military does not apply to policing.

    The very common veterans' preference in hiring officers is not an assertion that they are better suited to police work. It's simply recognition for their service, same as the veterans' preference for the post office. Or most all government jobs.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    1097 people were killed by police in 2022
    up 42 from the year before

    from this u of m study: https://sites.fordschool.umich.edu/p...olicing-pb.pdf


    • cameras reduce use of force
    • black and women officers are less likely to use force
    • stricter gun laws help reduce fatal interactions with police
      • that fear, that vigilance really of anyone and everyone that they encounter may have a gun does look like it drives more police shootings

    • fatal shootings by officers were 50% higher in cities with white chiefs rather than black ones
    You might consider the black officers who beat a black man to death on camera. Race and video don't seem to really matter.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    What would you rather have, more of the same, with a trend toward worse, or actual, substantive change?

    You think the only problem is with the tiny fraction of the population that works as police and the tinier segment that needs policing. Everyone is else is fine. If those criminal types would just stop breaking the law we wouldn't need to discipline the cops.

    Since the overwhelming majority of general population are civilians who obey all the laws, it should be easy to change things so we don't have to watch another Trye Nichols or Breonna Taylor die on the evening news. Except it hasn't done squat so far, for all the handwringing and promises to get tough on crime. Mouthwash by pols.

    If twenty percent of the general population eligible for a national draft actually got trained and spent a year on the street and in the precinct, it would be enough to attrit the cowboy thugs and the so-called badapples, and eventually, that would accumulate, with oversight, to a revamped system, nationally, that is not smeared in thin blue line culture. The general public would include enough veterans of policing that active duty cops would be reminded constantly that society is paying attention and won't tolerate the practices and culture that gave us the atrocious numbers we now enjoy.

    And that might even be a helpful factor in eventually making substantial changes in the private arsenal of guns in America.

    Or just let someone else do it. Gimme mine and let the losers wallow in it.
    National Service just p!!$e$ off half of the conscripts.
    You need committed volunteers and as dutchpp said, adrquate long term training.

    About two years then continual on the job development.
    Training


    Being a police officer is both rewarding and challenging - you’ll sometimes need to operate outside of your comfort zone and handle difficult or complex situations. This means you’ll need to be able to think on your feet and work well with colleagues as part of an effective team. You’ll also need great people skills, remaining calm and patient with members of the public, particularly in stressful or volatile situations.



    The training you'll receive

    To enable you to do your job safely and effectively, you’ll receive world-class training (both classroom-based and on the job) and mentoring, which will see you develop the skills and knowledge you need to be able to:

    • Apply investigative skills and intelligence to solving crimes
    • Deal with safety issues within the community
    • Ensure public order and safety while supporting major police operations
    • Develop an understanding of new technologies
    • Deliver national policing objectives at a community level

    While each force manages its own training programme, you’ll typically have a mix of:

    • Around 18 – 22 weeks classroom-based training – you’ll learn a lot about various aspects of policing, the law and procedures but don’t worry, it’s definitely not boring! It’s normally broken up by role plays and practical sessions.
    • You’ll receive first aid and personal safety training.
    • You’ll also undertake a driving course to give you the on-the-road skills you need to do your job.
    • You’ll then typically be assigned to a tutor and spend around three months as part of a response rota, developing your on-the-job skills and experience, from taking statements to diffusing tense situations and making your first arrest.

    And at every step, you’ll get lots of support from your tutors and the experienced colleagues you’ll be assigned to work with.
    https://www.joiningthepolice.co.uk/t...ssion/training
    Plus a desire to change, from top down, and the use of disclipinary proceese to rewire or sack those who will not buy in to a better culture.
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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    You might consider the black officers who beat a black man to death on camera. Race and video don't seem to really matter.
    your understanding of racial prejudice is skin deep.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Being a veteran of the armed forces should be an immediate disqualifier for public policing.

    edit to add: I would rethink my stance if the armed forces were still populated by conscription.
    Which practically guarantees an equitable cross section of society.
    As it is now, enlistment standards do not provide that.
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 02-02-2023 at 02:54 PM.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Being a veteran of the armed forces should be an immediate disqualifier for public policing.
    I'd specify "combat veteran." A person who served in a motor pool, warehouse, or other administrative or logistics roles might be an excellent police officer.

    What puts me off is the intense militarization of US police: surplus armored vehicles and heavy weapons, war-zone tactics, the whole "warrior cop" schtick.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    of those 1097 how many are deemed justifiable, negligent or criminal?

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    What puts me off is the intense militarization of US police: surplus armored vehicles and heavy weapons, war-zone tactics, the whole "warrior cop" schtick.
    buzzcuts, black combat tactical uniforms, ski masks, jump boots
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    something that really has really stood out to me about the tyre nichols story is the special ops 'skorpion unit' the police officers were members of

    that unit was created to address illegal activities in the 'the worst neighborhoods of memphis'

    even in the absolute 'worst neighborhoods in memphis' 98% of citizens are lawful. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    There are 20,000,000 traffic stops annually. Last year there were 60 felonious deaths of officers. Do the math. Yet cops are trained that every single encounter with a citizen is going to be their last, when in reality, every single encounter a citizen has with a cop could be THEIR last. The cop industrial complex has it exactly backwards and that’s by design. It leads to more funding.
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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Qualified Immunity
    end it

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    There are well over 10,000 law enforcement agencies in this country (from memory). Our transit system administrator just got one. Crazyville.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by CK 17 View Post
    There are 20,000,000 traffic stops annually. Last year there were 60 felonious deaths of officers. Do the math. Yet cops are trained that every single encounter with a citizen is going to be their last, when in reality, every single encounter a citizen has with a cop could be THEIR last. The cop industrial complex has it exactly backwards and that’s by design. It leads to more funding.
    I dont think that any traffic stop in the UK has resulted in the death of either cop or driver.

    Go figgure.

    Most recent published stats indicate that there was one invident in 2020 where an armed police unit shot and killed a driver believed to be armed.

    Our biggest problem are not stops so much, but where criminals try to evade the police at speed and iether kill themselves, their passengers or some innocent buystander when they run out of road at speed.

    • An officer in a marked police vehicle was responding to an emergency incident with the vehicle’s blue lights and sirens activated. The officer noticed that a motor scooter was being ridden in front of him. The scooter appeared to respond to the presence of the police vehicle and made off at speed. The officer informed the control room about the scooter but did not attempt to pursue it. The officer lost sight of the scooter and continued along the road where, shortly after, a member of the public waved him down. The scooter had collided with a tree and the rider died at the scene. This incident was subject to independent investigation.
    • Officers on patrol in a marked police vehicle saw a car pull out of a car park. The car narrowly avoided a collision with two pedestrians before driving off in the opposite direction from the police vehicle. The police turned their car around, by which point they had lost sight of the vehicle. The officers drove in the general direction they believed the vehicle had travelled, and discovered it had crashed. The occupants of the car were taken to hospital, where one of the passengers later died. The incident was subject to independent investigation.
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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    I've mentioned before that my neighbor, for a few months, was a Newark cop. At a party, he and his cop buddies were enjoying moments of giving tickets to black drivers for things they hadn't done.

    Why am I the only one who believes cops do things they shouldn't do simply because they can do so and get away with it. If they were held more accountable, they'd likely behave better.
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    The Memphis episode made me wonder if it was an aberration, or one of a number of similar occurrences.
    Defunding the police has happened in that many police forces are operating at less than full compliment, NYC, to name one.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    I'd specify "combat veteran." A person who served in a motor pool, warehouse, or other administrative or logistics roles might be an excellent police officer.

    What puts me off is the intense militarization of US police: surplus armored vehicles and heavy weapons, war-zone tactics, the whole "warrior cop" schtick.
    I'm not so sure. A career in the military, even outside direct combat roles, still creates a mindset of authoritarianism. (Those who resist that mindset don't stay in for an entire career).

    I can think of many other institutions I'd rather draw police recruits from than the military.

    Tom
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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I may be the only '60s vintage war resister who favors a universal draft because it sharpens interest in foreign policy but that's another matter. Vets who become police need to be trained first and right off that almost everything they learned in the military does not apply to policing.

    The very common veterans' preference in hiring officers is not an assertion that they are better suited to police work. It's simply recognition for their service, same as the veterans' preference for the post office. Or most all government jobs.
    I have to disagree with you here, Ian. Yes, on paper the preference for veterans is the same. But U.S. police are pseudo-military. Recruiting from military to police is both a cause and effect of that pseudo-military organizational structure and mindset.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Sleeve tats
    cops love em

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    something that really has really stood out to me about the tyre nichols story is the special ops 'skorpion unit' the police officers were members of

    that unit was created to address illegal activities in the 'the worst neighborhoods of memphis'

    even in the absolute 'worst neighborhoods in memphis' 98% of citizens are lawful. . .
    Source?

    I will suggest that in the worst neighborhoods, maybe two thirds of the population are lawful. In the best neighborhoods, maybe 90% of the population are lawful, perhaps slightly more, but not much more.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    I was talking with a mid-ranking drug squad officer (major) about a year ago, he was just back from a one-month field operation, chasing the guy who'd killed another police major during an attempted arrest. Didn't get him - at least not that time. I can assure you, the guys weren't interested in arresting the perp. About a month later, I saw a news article - 15 drug runners shot dead.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugs View Post
    Source?

    I will suggest that in the worst neighborhoods, maybe two thirds of the population are lawful. In the best neighborhoods, maybe 90% of the population are lawful, perhaps slightly more, but not much more.
    Source?
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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Double amputee...
    (Officer seen discarding a weapon, a double amputee trying to flee on his hands and stumps while dragging his wheelchair. I wonder if he was black?)

    ​"
    At about 3:40 p.m. on Thursday, Huntington Park officers responded to a man who reported that he had been stabbed, Lt. Hugo Reynaga of the L.A. County Sheriff’s Department said. The man, who was hospitalized in critical condition as of Monday, gave police a description of person he claimed had stabbed him, according to authorities. Police said that description matched Lowe.

    Lowe was in a wheelchair on a sidewalk when officers attempted to detain him, Reynaga said. Bystander videos posted on Twitter and TikTok show Lowe, having exited his wheelchair, attempt to pull it along as the officers walk toward him before abandoning it and shuffling away.

    Officers used two Tasers to subdue Lowe, but they were “ineffective,” the Huntington Park police statement said.

    Bystander video appears to show one officer discard a weapon they were holding and draw another from their holster, aiming at Lowe. A third officer is then seen driving up to the scene, getting out of a police car and drawing a weapon. Several gunshots are then heard in quick succession.
    The officers appear to be standing several feet from Lowe when they open fire. The videos do not capture any dialogue between Lowe and the officers."

    WP


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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by CK 17 View Post
    Source?
    Original research, including interviews with three Commissioners who commanded between them about 35,000 sworn police officers. This resulted in the development by my team of a detailed system for measuring police performance. Current work includes development of survival training courses for drug interdiction officers.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    legalize drugs
    problem solved
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    legalize drugs
    problem solved
    Or maybe legalize slavery?

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    Default Re: some comments on reducing police violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugs View Post
    Source?

    I will suggest that in the worst neighborhoods, maybe two thirds of the population are lawful. In the best neighborhoods, maybe 90% of the population are lawful, perhaps slightly more, but not much more.
    i will suggest that 90% of married anglo businessmen who travel without their wives in se asia are sex tourists.

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