some comments on reducing police violence

[AndyG]

I quite like our 'policing by consent'.

Sure, there are a few issues with some elements of the UK police service, but in my life I have never felt intimidated when being near police officers.

They don't, of course, carry guns or act like a quasi-military unit. The atmosphere is more one of 'for the public good'.

Which is just as it should be.

Andy

[wizbang 13]

I do a little thing sometimes… it’s quite cute.
I blow up a paper bag and hold it behind my back, yell “STOP…POLICE!”
a second later I does pop de bag
always a freakin hoot!
try it sometime Paul

[Lugs]

I do a little thing sometimes… it’s quite cute.
I blow up a paper bag and hold it behind my back, yell “STOP…POLICE!”
a second later I does pop de bag
always a freakin hoot!
try it sometime Paul

After using drugs?

[Lugs]

i will suggest that 90% of married anglo businessmen who travel without their wives in se asia are sex tourists.

Research of yours? Lloyd Austin is in SE Asia at the moment, has he got his wife with him, or is he just trying to set up some sort of sex sortie with China?

[skuthorp]

As an early operator of Photoshop (it was a case of write your oen manual then) I had the job of editing photos of a retiring MD of a large minerals corporation so that the bevy of young Asian girls that were around him did not show in the annual reports……. and other publications. But that was only one man of course. I imagine that 'sweeteners' or honey traps were not uncommon then wherever you were, there being little chance of blowback. With cameras everywhere and social media I think it might be a different matter now.

[Lugs]

As an early operator of Photoshop (it was a case of write your oen manual then) I had the job of editing photos of a retiring MD of a large minerals corporation so that the bevy of young Asian girls that were around him did not show in the annual reports……. and other publications. But that was only one man of course. I imagine that 'sweeteners' or honey traps were not uncommon then wherever you were, there being little chance of blowback. With cameras everywhere and social media I think it might be a different matter now.

Americans (well, American men) seem to fantasize about this. Strange. Is sex taboo there?

[CK 17]

The Memphis episode made me wonder if it was an aberration, or one of a number of similar occurrences.
Defunding the police has happened in that many police forces are operating at less than full compliment, NYC, to name one.

there are several reasons why there’s a shortage.

it seems the job just isn’t as fun anymore when you can no longer kill with impunity.

refusing to follow covid protocols has killed a lot of them.

and yes, defunding has whittled down the numbers.

[Breakaway]

There are 20,000,000 traffic stops annually. Last year there were 60 felonious deaths of officers. Do the math. Yet cops are trained that every single encounter with a citizen is going to be their last, when in reality, every single encounter a citizen has with a cop could be THEIR last. The cop industrial complex has it exactly backwards and that’s by design. It leads to more funding.

I disagree. The US, unlike other places, has an armed populace. US cops risk more in daily encounters.

To build a metaphor, an individual's chance of being in a deadly car accident are pretty low. But, wearing a seat belt is a good thing nonetheless. Similar odds exist for cops encountering and armed and murderous citizen. Yet, they remain vigilant to the possibility.

Kevin

[Kevin T]

3 thoughts on Police Violence;

1. If a 1097 'Muricans were killed in any given year by Al Qaida or whatever terrorist group is a member of the threat of the month club, the resources that would be poured into the problem would make your nose bleed. Except of course if it is a white domestic terror group, then it gets some attention, but not the national mobilization.

2. What CW wrote: "The last I heard, a lot of police forces were recruiting out of the military and that is a horribly bad idea in my opinion." I agree 1,000% and I just don't buy the old saw that ex military are good recruits because they come pre-trained in weaponry use. That may be true, but it is not what the American populace needs or deserves.

War weapons have no place within the American landscape to say nothing of the fact that ex-military training conditions that individual to see every encounter as a deadly threat that needs to be neutralized. And whether you agree with that fact or not, the reality is that true weapon using soldiers are NEVER a part of the community in which they operate in as part of American OSA's. Turning that mindset off when they enter police service (areas) may prove nigh on impossible.

3. 5 black cops in Memphis beating a black motorist to death has nothing to do with black racism and everything to do with BLUE racism and the group think that it is "us against them". Chinese cops in SF have beaten Chinese suspects, Puerto Rican cops in NYC have beaten Puerto Rican suspects, and White cops anywhere in America have beaten poor Whites. Cops of all colors have been heavy handed with people of all colors, though dark skinned suspects are always in for a bit of "extra special"* treatment.

* Yes I'm being facetious as there is nothing special and certainly nothing humane is the way that some of our fellow human beings have suffered at the fists, knees, boots, truncheons, tasers and guns of certain (not all) LEOs.

[Nicholas Carey]

I disagree. The US, unlike other places, has an armed populace. US cops risk more in daily encounters.

They're not risking much. From the FBI, in 2021, there were 129 police officers killed in the line of duty in the USA. Of those, 73 were killed by "felonious acts", and the remaining 53 in accidents (e.g., getting hit by a passing car.) Only 9 of those killings occurred during traffic stops. Assuming that there are 20,000,000 traffic stops per annum in the USA — the first number that pops up in Google, but digging a little deeper shows estimates ranging from 13-some million to 32-some million annual traffic stops — the probability of getting killed during a traffic stop as... minimal. Asymptotically approaching zero in fact (0.045 per 100,000).

Here's a 2019 paper from the University of Michigan Law Review, "Policing, Danger Narratives, and Routine Traffic Stops", offering much the same conclusions in much more detail.

https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi...84&context=mlr

The abstract:

This Article presents findings from the largest and most comprehensive study to date on violence against the police during traffic stops . Every year, police officers conduct tens of millions of traffic stops . Many of these stops are entirely unremarkable—so much so that they may be fairly described as routine. Nonetheless, the narrative that routine traffic stops are fraught with grave and unpredictable danger to the police permeates police training and animates Fourth Amendment doctrine. This Article challenges this dominant danger narrative and its centrality within key institutions that regulate the police .

The presented study is the first to offer an estimate for the danger rates of routine traffic stops to law enforcement officers . I reviewed a comprehensive dataset of thousands of traffic stops that resulted in violence against officers across more than 200 law enforcement agencies in Florida over a 10-year period . The findings reveal that violence against officers was rare and that incidents that do involve violence are typically low risk and do not involve weapons. Under a conservative estimate,

• the rate for a felonious killing of an officer during a routine traffic stop was only 1 in every 6 .5 million stops,
• the rate for an assault resulting in serious injury to an officer was only [b]1 in every 361,111 stops, and
• the rate for an assault against officers (whether it results in injury or not) was only 1 in every 6,959 stops.

In contrast, people stopped by the police in a traffic stop are far more at risk (an order of magnitude). From New York magazine's 2021 article, "New Report Details How and Why Routine Traffic Stops Turn Deadly" — might note the tone of the headline and the article and how it paints traffic stops (falsely) as dangerous —

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021...rn-deadly.html

A recently published New York Times investigation offers a wide-ranging look at how routine traffic stops by police for minor violations — frequently driven by the demand for ticket revenue — often escalate into fatal encounters for U.S. motorists and passengers.

The months-long investigation found that, during traffic stops over the last five years, police killed more than 400 people “who were not wielding a gun or a knife, or under pursuit for a violent crime — a rate of more than one a week.” Black drivers were overrepresented in the deaths, the Times said. Officers consistently avoided criminal liability for using deadly force: In all the deaths, only five officers were ultimately convicted of wrongdoing. Over three quarters of the motorists police killed were trying to flee; policing experts say that when this happens, the correct tactic is to let them drive away.

Thanks to police culture and training, many officers have been conditioned to believe — wrongly — that traffic stops are high-risk, the report explains. (Research has indicated that the chances of a police officer being killed during a traffic stop are actually less than 1 in 3.6 million.) The high-risk mindset leads to overreaction and hyper-violence against people who are not a threat. “All [officers have] heard are horror stories about what could happen,” Sarah Mooney, assistant police chief in West Palm Beach, told the Times. “It is very difficult to try to train that out of somebody.”

[David W Pratt]

legalize drugs
problem solved

The experience with fentanyl and Oxy-Codone suggest that legalization is no panacea.

[Paul Pless]

The experience with fentanyl and Oxy-Codone suggest that legalization is no panacea.

those drugs aren't legal on the street
but perhaps safe legal versions of them should be
along with treatment for those who are ready for it

[epoxyboy]

Source?

I will suggest that in the worst neighborhoods, maybe two thirds of the population are lawful. In the best neighborhoods, maybe 90% of the population are lawful, perhaps slightly more, but not much more.

Rather depends on you definition of lawful. I probably break the posted speed limit at some point almost daily. Does that make the cut?

Pete

[CK 17]

I disagree. The US, unlike other places, has an armed populace. US cops risk more in daily encounters.

To build a metaphor, an individual's chance of being in a deadly car accident are pretty low. But, wearing a seat belt is a good thing nonetheless. Similar odds exist for cops encountering and armed and murderous citizen. Yet, they remain vigilant to the possibility.

Kevin

you can disagree all you want. The data shows pulling over a car just isn’t that dangerous. The 60 killed in 2022 weren’t all traffic stops either.

an internet search of the deadliest jobs in the US doesn’t put cops anywhere near the top. Yet, they kill about 1200 of us a year. The only reason a cop should be killing is in self defense. The killing is way out of proportion to the statistical danger of the job.

[Lugs]

Rather depends on you definition of lawful. I probably break the posted speed limit at some point almost daily. Does that make the cut?

Pete

The line is a bit higher than a speeding offence. Move into DUI territory, or driving in a manner dangerous and that's probably where it lies.

[Breakaway]

you can disagree all you want. The data shows pulling over a car just isn’t that dangerous. The 60 killed in 2022 weren’t all traffic stops either.

an internet search of the deadliest jobs in the US doesn’t put cops anywhere near the top. Yet, they kill about 1200 of us a year. The only reason a cop should be killing is in self defense. The killing is way out of proportion to the statistical danger of the job.

Again, the chances meeting someone who will kill or injure them are low. Just like the chances of being jn a bad car accident are low. But you wouldnt advise stopping sear belt wear, would you? Just because the chances of needing it are very low?

Cops need to be prepared for the worst case. But somehow we need to train them so that worst case is not their only viewpoint.

Of those 1,200 killed how many were armed? What were the circumstances? Were all of those killed just innocent people, just like us?

Certainly, there is a problem with police violence. But its not all cops. And in some cases violence is warranted. We need police capable of violence so long as so many of us carry guns around with us. There is no easy answer. But, painting with the broadest brush possible is misleading and non-productive.

Kevin


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[WI-Tom]

Again, the chances meeting someone who will kill or injure them are low. Just like the chances of being jn a bad car accident are low. But you wouldnt advise stopping sear belt wear, would you? Just because the chances of needing it are very low?

Cops need to be prepared for the worst case. But somehow we need to train them so that worst case is not their only viewpoint.

Of those 1,200 killed how many were armed? What were the circumstances? Were all of those killed just innocent people, just like us?

Certainly, there is a problem with police violence. But its not all cops. And in some cases violence is warranted. We need police capable of violence so long as so many of us carry guns around with us. There is no easy answer. But, painting with the broadest brush possible is misleading and non-productive.

Kevin

That has certainly been the governing assumption so far.

How's that working out?

Police might be in less danger if they were disarmed. Citizens--especially non-white citizens--would definitely be in less danger. And my life would not be worse just because police didn't routinely carry guns.

For the rare cases where an armed response might be needed, send in a special armed unit to deal with it. But keep the everyday police unarmed, and I think things would only improve.

Tom

[Peerie Maa]

That has certainly been the governing assumption so far.

How's that working out?

Police might be in less danger if they were disarmed. Citizens--especially non-white citizens--would definitely be in less danger. And my life would not be worse just because police didn't routinely carry guns.

For the rare cases where an armed response might be needed, send in a special armed unit to deal with it. But keep the everyday police unarmed, and I think things would only improve.

Tom

This works for us.

[dutchpp]

Our cops carry guns but they don't kill. Must be the training

[wizbang 13]

“Special Unit”…. and we are right back to SKORPION

[WI-Tom]

“Special Unit”…. and we are right back to SKORPION

Not necessarily. There's a smart way to do it, and a dumb way. The U.S. seems set on the dumbest way possible. Other countries do it much better.

Tom

[wizbang 13]

After using drugs?

oh god no. When I’m high, I pop the ballon first,THEN yell “ stop police”.

[Paul Pless]

we all know this is a nonstarter in the united states now, and in the near and not so near future

That has certainly been the governing assumption so far.

How's that working out?

Police might be in less danger if they were disarmed. Citizens--especially non-white citizens--would definitely be in less danger. And my life would not be worse just because police didn't routinely carry guns.

For the rare cases where an armed response might be needed, send in a special armed unit to deal with it. But keep the everyday police unarmed, and I think things would only improve.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

we all know this is a nonstarter in the united states now, and in the near and not so near future

We all "know" that... but only if we accept that "incremental progress" is the only way forward.

Tom

[Paul Pless]

[George Jung]

Has this been posted?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/04/u...-scorpion.html

I've used up my current alotment of 'nytimes good will' - but from the descriptors, it sounds like the Scorpions were damn near set up like a gang. WTH?

[Breakaway]

This works for us.

Your citizenry isnt generally armed.

Additionally, we Americans are more entitled and self centered than others.We display less obeisance and compliance than I have noticed in other places. We Americans HAVE RIGHTS doncha know!

This attitude means interactions with authority, be they cops, a store manager, a museum docent, or your kids coach—tend to start off confrontational from the get go.

This, all IME, and IMO.

Anyway, these two factors make random interactions different than they might be elsewhere.

Kevin


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[Breakaway]

Our cops carry guns but they don't kill. Must be the training

Nor do most, or even many, US cops.
But a percentage does and that needs addressing.

Likely the training.
And the initial vetting, recruiting process.
And likely a culture of community service thats reinforced throughout ones career.

Here, we rely upon an individual being well balanced enough to keep the gorilla in the cage 99.9 percent of the time.
There are those that manage it. They do not make the news.

Kevin


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[Durnik]

Being a veteran of the armed forces should be an immediate disqualifier for public policing.

edit to add: I would rethink my stance if the armed forces were still populated by conscription.
Which practically guarantees an equitable cross section of society.
As it is now, enlistment standards do not provide that.

while I agree with this, it's interesting to observe that military LE has far greater restrictions on acceptable actions. Still, as WI-Tom observes - & I'll take it one step further - the indoctrination given ALL military recruits should disqualify them from any civilian world 'job' with an authoritative component.. ie: LE (cops).. and politicians.

I'm not so sure. A career in the military, even outside direct combat roles, still creates a mindset of authoritarianism. (Those who resist that mindset don't stay in for an entire career).

I can think of many other institutions I'd rather draw police recruits from than the military.

Tom

Truth.

There are 20,000,000 traffic stops annually. Last year there were 60 felonious deaths of officers. Do the math. Yet cops are trained that every single encounter with a citizen is going to be their last, when in reality, every single encounter a citizen has with a cop could be THEIR last. The cop industrial complex has it exactly backwards and that’s by design. It leads to more funding.

This is not recognized enough. *Civilian cops are actively taught to immediately shoot to kill if they feel in any way the situation might deteriorate to they being in danger - which is why a black (did I need to clarify that?) teacher sitting defenseless in a car was immediately shot by cops when he calmly informed them there was a pistol in the glove box. If **'protect & serve' were to apply to people, and if the 'right to a trial by a jury of their peers' had force, cops would kill no one - and we are right back to an unarmed police.

* military LE are taught differently.
** as was succinctly observed decades ago by Mumia, "police protect the capital'. we, the people, are 'the enemy'.

That has certainly been the governing assumption so far.

How's that working out?

Police might be in less danger if they were disarmed. Citizens--especially non-white citizens--would definitely be in less danger. And my life would not be worse just because police didn't routinely carry guns.

For the rare cases where an armed response might be needed, send in a special armed unit to deal with it. But keep the everyday police unarmed, and I think things would only improve.

Tom

next to no 'might' about it. People (not LE - as observed, their job is actually low on the dangerous list) knowing the cops are likely to kill them & desperate to live, will shoot preemptively - and an unarmed LE will remove that threat.

We all "know" that... but only if we accept that "incremental progress" is the only way forward.

Tom

aka, how to prevent change from actually changing anything. note esp HRC and her "we need time to implement a $15/hr minimum wage".. that would be time to manipulate the system so the difference is no difference. When Biden assured the country's wealthy 'no one's standard of living will change', it was the standard of living of the working class/poor that he - even if sub-consciously - referred to. No amount of added taxation will diminish the ATFW's standard of living. With Pelosi leading on 45's tax gift to the ATFW which added 33% to the debt, HRC standing against an almost but not quite living minimum wage & Biden stopping a possible transportation workers strike (for what were very reasonable requests) in favor of the industry as 'friends of the people', who needs enemies?

Capitalism is exploitation - & LE in the U.S. exists to maintain that by subduing the population thru fear.



as always, imho, ymmv, yadda, yadda, yadda

[Andrew2]

Our biggest problem are not stops so much, but where criminals try to evade the police at speed and iether kill themselves, their passengers or some innocent buystander when they run out of road at speed.[/QUOTE]
Umm, wasn't there a case a couple of years back where a policeman was dragged by a driver and died? Driver of traveller persuasion and involved in a crime?

[Peerie Maa]

Our biggest problem are not stops so much, but where criminals try to evade the police at speed and iether kill themselves, their passengers or some innocent buystander when they run out of road at speed.

Umm, wasn't there a case a couple of years back where a policeman was dragged by a driver and died? Driver of traveller persuasion and involved in a crime?

Yes, they were stealing a quad bike from a farm.
The investigating officer was unlucky enough to stand in a bight of the tow rope attached to their car when they sped off.

As he sentenced them at the Old Bailey the judge, Mr Justice Edis, described the killers as "young, unintelligent but professional criminals".


Long, Bowers and Cole had been cleared of murder following a four-week trial that concluded last Friday.


Jurors heard PC Harper was dragged for more than a mile along country lanes after he and a colleague responded to reports of a quad bike theft on 15 August.


The officer became "lassoed" to the back of the killers' Seat Toledo as he tried to apprehend Cole, who had unhitched the stolen quad bike from the car.


As PC Harper chased Cole, the 28-year-old officer from Wallingford "unwittingly" stepped with both feet into the loop of a tow rope which was trailing behind the vehicle.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46544144