Heat resistant wood glue?

[lupussonic]

If you search for 'heat resistant wood glue' online you get a hit from Franklin International that says this;

Super Titebond Wood Glue is a high-quality, professional woodworking glue that offers superior sandability and solvent-resistance. It develops a bond stronger than wood and provides a longer working time than traditional aliphatic resin glues. Super Titebond resists stress imposed by heat and moisture during the production of panels, squares and other wood parts. This makes it the ideal choice for edge and face gluing as well as other woodworking operations.

But when you go to Titebonds own website 'Supe Titebond' is not there.

I need to laminate some small (2" x 2") beams that will run close to a wood stove. Not close enough to scorch the wood, but still I'm thinking epoxy is out.

Anyone have any ideas?

I am looking for a product in Europe.

Many thanks,

Martin.

[Paul Pless]

have you looked into cyanoacrylates? superglues?

[Keith Wilson]

You can get high-temperature epoxy. One type:

[bluedog225]

We all know what epoxy is though.

[Keith Wilson]

We all know what epoxy is though.

Very useful?

[David W Pratt]

Is wood, itself, considered 'heat resistant'?

[John Meachen]

I responded upstairs.

[lupussonic]

I don't think cyanoacrylate will give me enough open time. I generally hate the stuff, and have no idea about thickening it. Didn't know it was heat resistant.

Heat resistant DS might be the ticket..

Thanks Mr Z, I missed that description when perusing the TB site.. will check that out also.

I can sheild the wood with stainless, but it's going to get warm anyhow and I don't want it all oozing out and un-springing on me.

I have some nice 3" sawn 1 year old ash for it.

Thanks all!

M

[Keith Wilson]

The spec sheet says that strength of Titebond II drops from 4000 PSI at room temperature to 800 PSI @150F. Doesn't seem like a good bet.

[Paul Pless]

You can get high-temperature epoxy. One type:

the type in post is not for bonding wood

[Keith Wilson]

Sort of (link). Grainger says 200F maximum, FWIW (another link)

the type in post is not for bonding wood

Yeah, probably right; it seems to be intended more as a metal filler. Here's the data sheet. Probably too thick.

[lupussonic]

John upstairs suggested Resorcinol, as it is used in fire doors as a composite glue.

Can't find any numbers on it though, and doubtful it is even available in EU.

[Garret]

Could the wood be shielded by some metal (copper?) on standoffs? I've used copper on 1" porcelain electric fence insulators behind woodstoves & the wall behind the copper sheet is never more than slightly warm to the touch even when the stovepipe 6" away is starting to glow. Has to be open top & bottom to get the air circulation & I bet even 1/2" spacing would keep it cool enough.

[Paul Pless]

search 'aircraft spruce' for 'cascophen'

we'll get to see how good your joints are

John upstairs suggested Resorcinol, as it is used in fire doors as a composite glue.

Can't find any numbers on it though, and doubtful it is even available in EU.

[lupussonic]

I think I would like to plan for 200c / 400F.. the reality I think would be much less, say 100 - 150c / 200 - 300F.

Mostly convected heat but a little radiated also. Yes intense 'scorch possible' radiated heat will be shielded with stainless sheet, but it's going to get warm no doubt.

Really do not want all the goo dropping out, possibly catching fire where it may ooze to, and getting my skull cracked clean in two by a 2 by 2 unsprunging.

That would be.. sub-optimal.

My issue is as much availability as performance.. but I'm liking the aircraft glue avenue.

[lupussonic]

I rebuilt a 14'6" Mirror Marauder with Cascomite.

[lupussonic]

search 'aircraft spruce' for 'cascophen'

we'll get to see how good your joints are

https://www.aircraftspruce.eu/cascop...nal-adh-pt.htm

Thanks Paul, looks like you and John are on the same page. No numbers or data sheet that I can see (in the last minute, I'll get into it.)

[Garret]

A silly thought: screw it instead of gluing it?

[lupussonic]

Hmm, I have never considered screwing a lamination together.. doesnt it leave gaps?

I found this TDS for Cascophen, but still not upper failure temp.

It does say this though.. 'Timber should have a maximum thickness variation of 0.2 mm across thewidth, with best results achieved at less than 0.1 mm. It is especiallyimportant to control lumber tolerances when using PRF cure.'

Sheesh.

https://pcladhesives.nz/wp-content/u..._MCAT_9131.pdf

I have also emailed Aircraft Spruce for such knowledge as they can provide. Thanks for the tip Paul.

[carlg]

How about the old Weldwood glue powder? Or, is that Cascophen?

[robm]

One is phenol formaldehyde, the other is urea formaldehyde. I bet either would work. But just try to find them.

[gypsie]

I've already expressed my opinion on making stoves out of wood in the wood stove thread.
I'll leave it at that.

[john welsford]

John upstairs suggested Resorcinol, as it is used in fire doors as a composite glue.

Can't find any numbers on it though, and doubtful it is even available in EU.

Phenol formaldehyde glues, of which resorcinol is one, are very commonly used in the manufacture of structural wooden beams. Those are required to be as fire resistant as possible, ( and yes in most cases they're way better than steel) and as it is one of the most heat resistant of adhesives its the usual adhesive for that purpose.
It should be readily available, although not necessarily from the local big box DIY shop.

John Welsford

[Nicholas Carey]

Hmm, I have never considered screwing a lamination together.. doesnt it leave gaps?

I found this TDS for Cascophen, but still not upper failure temp.

It does say this though.. 'Timber should have a maximum thickness variation of 0.2 mm across thewidth, with best results achieved at less than 0.1 mm. It is especiallyimportant to control lumber tolerances when using PRF cure.'

Sheesh.

https://pcladhesives.nz/wp-content/u..._MCAT_9131.pdf

I have also emailed Aircraft Spruce for such knowledge as they can provide. Thanks for the tip Paul.

If you rummage around the Forest Products Laboratory (your tax dollars at work!)

https://www.fpl.fs.usda.gov

there's papers discussing strength of various glues. Probably find them through

- http://science.gov/
- https://www.justo r.org

As well as other academic paper search engines.

IIRC, with respect to resorcinol, for maximum strength, resorcinol wants

- a really thin glue line (hundredths of an inch?), meaning very well-fit joints, and

- very high clamping pressures.

[Nicholas Carey]

If you rummage around the Forest Products Laboratory (your tax dollars at work!)

https://www.fpl.fs.usda.gov

there's papers discussing strength of various glues. Probably find them through

- http://science.gov/
- https://www.justo r.org

As well as other academic paper search engines.

IIRC, with respect to resorcinol, for maximum strength, resorcinol wants

- a really thin glue line (hundredths of an inch?), meaning very well-fit joints, and

- very high clamping pressures.

Rummaging around in the WBF attic, something I posted years ago (20!), after looking at various resorcinol-related data sheets and FPL papers:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...684#post517684

WRT to what people have said about resorcinol's need to thin gluelines, clamping pressure, etc.:

Bear in mind that using resorcinol successfully requires much more care than many other adhesives in order to achieve good bond strength. For starters (from DAP Weldwood's instructions and other sources):

1. The temperature — of the wood, the glue and the work area — must be not less than 70°F. If less than 70°F, bond strength will be insufficient.

2. Resorcinol's cure is sensitive to relative humidity. Moisture content of the wood should be between 8-12%. Wood moisture content of less than 5% or more than 15% compromises bond strength.

3. The glueline should be about 0.005 inches in thickness — that's 1/200 inch or 1/8 millimeter — or bond strength is compromised. Too thin and there's not enough adhesive in the joint. Too thick and the adhesive fails rather than the wood.

4. Resorcinol requires extremely high clamping pressures. DAP recommends clamping pressures of 25-75 psi; other sources (FPL and its Australian and Canadian equivalents) recommend clamping pressures of 100-200 psi in order to optimize bond strength.

It's exceedingly hard to achieve these kinds of pressures uniformly without specialized equipement. Bear in mind that even vacuum bagging, considered a superb means of applying high clamping pressure for gluing, can achieve only a theoretical pressure of 14.7 psi at sea level. Resorcinol requires 2-10x that. And mechanical clamps, unless you use a lot of them, don't supply uniform pressure.

Epoxy's ease of use and tolerance for imperfect gluelines, low clamping pressure and temperature have lot to do with why it's as popular as it is.

[ 03-17-2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

Also, from the same thread, it seems there's an ANSI standard for resorcinol laminations:

ANSI/AITC Standard A190.1, American National Standard, Structural Glued Laminated Timber provides details on layup requirements.

It and other helpful standards regarding the design and manufacture of structural glued laminated timber may be purchased from http://www.aitc-glulam.org/ at reasonable prices (for example, A190.1 is $11.00).

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

https://www.firestoppingshop.com/pro...waAuuZEALw_wcB

Spec reads well

[birlinn]

Glue and screw? Safer.

[Splodge]

Resorcinol glue used to be available in the UK as Aerodux. It has been renamed Prefere and is still available from eg LAS

[heimlaga]

I bought Aerodux 185 in 1 litre cans a year ago from a German company called Siebert Aero. I like that glue. It doesn't run everywhere like epoxy and it can be steam bent without damaging the glue joint. The only downside is that the temperature must not drop below +10 degrees celsius before it is completely cured. It is a resorcinpl-phenolc glue with powder hardener. Ordinary cramping pressure is enough. The gap filling properties are the same as for ordinary white indoors wood glue and that is enough for me.
If you want greater amounts of Aerodux 185 then Savontech is a good place to order it from. However their minimum order is 20 litres.

[Too Little Time]

...

http://www.titebond.com/product/glue...4-68eaf96f8e71

Google is more friendly for searching

[lupussonic]

Yeah, extremely hard to find in Europe. I have just emailed 4 Titebond retailers who do not show it on their website.

Aircraft Spruce got back to me, they don't sell Cascophen any more and just sent me a data sheet that says nothing about heat.

Thank you all for the pointers.. I'll get back here when / if a result is forthcoming.

[The Ranger]

Wood exposed to high temps for a long time gradually changes its chemical composition and the ignition temp decreases.