MotorTrend Checks in on EVs

[Joe (SoCal)]

I think he means sales in that year. Something to remember is that more used cars are purchased each year than new so what’s on the road in five years won’t look much different than now. Don’t think my ‘97 F150 will make it that long.

Ahhh someone gets it

[Chip-skiff]

Some time ago, I drove our 2000 Honda Insight hybrid (60 mpg) from Laramie, WY to Corvallis, OR (about 1200 miles). Stopped in Boise for gas. Filled up in Corvallis. Stopped in Boise going back. Made it to Laramie with gas in the tank.

In the near term, a hybrid is not a bad bet.

[Joe (SoCal)]

In the near term, a hybrid is not a bad bet.

Talk to me in five years. Keep in mind what plug in EV's have accomplished in the last 5 years.

[Chip-skiff]

Talk to me in five years. Keep in mind what plug in EV's have accomplished in the last 5 years.

We'll get an EV, when the one I want is actually available. Bit of a cock-up with the supply chain, right now.

[Paul Pless]

We'll get an EV, when the one I want is actually available. Bit of a cock-up with the supply chain, right now.

as someone who lives in a far far more rural environment than joe, combined with more frequent cold weather and long distances, which current or future pure ev's are you most interested in, chip?

[Chip-skiff]

Volkswagen id4 Pro. It's low on flashy crap and has an 8-inch ground clearance with AWD, which we need to negotiate our access road in winter.

Most of our driving is to Laramie, about 60 mi roundtrip, with an occasional jaunt to Cheyenne or Fort Collins (240 mi r/t).

We might need a slight boost in Ft. Collins, but would otherwise be charging at home from our solar PV system, which generates about 2500 kWh per year more than we use.

In winter, I'd put a small AC heater inside to warm it up before leaving.

[Paul Pless]

Volkswagen id4 Pro.

thank you for the input

that seems solid; not needing an suv or the kitschy van i've been curious to see what volkswagen will do in the ev hatch back/wagon market

our car choices are somewhat determined by who kat is working for, so we shall see

[Joe (SoCal)]

We'll get an EV, when the one I want is actually available. Bit of a cock-up with the supply chain, right now.

You can pick up a slightly used Tesla today for less money, or no waiting and a lower price for a new Tesla. Now all the competitors have to chase the new lower priced leader in the full plug in EV market space. Kinda genius if you ask me. When you own the best charging network and you have first to market full plug in EV and all of a sudden there is competition from the major auto makers, what do you do SLASH PRICES AND REGAIN MARKET CONTROLE.

Hence THIS week

Screenshot 2023-01-28 at 10.25.42 PM.jpg

BOOM !!!!!

[Paul Pless]

only down $205 from their 52 week high

[sonofswen]

Range anxiety is a real issue for much of the country... and I don't just mean long haul driving.

Here in Oregon, even for Tesla chargers (the most reliable and widespread), there are a total of about 2 dozen.

That's for just shy of 100,000 square miles, and roughly 200,000 miles of main roads.

And they are not, of course, evenly distributed. They are mainly concentrated along the N/S I-5 corridor. And secondarily along the N/S Hwy 101 corridor. Most of the state - the pickings are pretty slim.

So if you have a home charger, and you live & mostly move along the I-5, you're good. Many of us don't.

And for me personally... I try and avoid I-5 when at all possible. I also spend a fair amount of time not on main roads... and away from those corridors. And when I travel, I'm often towing a boat - which really takes a chunk out of your range.

So hybrid it is, and probably will be for quite some time.

Oregon

Baker City, OR1 Sunridge LaneBaker City, OR 97814-2254Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Bandon, OR120 Michigan Ave. NEBandon, OR 97411Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Bend, OR61535 S Highway 97Bend, OR 97702-2154Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Boardman, OR101 Olson RoadBoardman, OR 97818Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Detroit Lake, OR210 D StreetDetroit, OR 97342-0018Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Grants Pass, OR1900 NW 6th St.Grants Pass, OR 97526-3402Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Harrisburg, OR32900 Diamond Hill RoadHarrisburg, OR 97446Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Hillsboro, OR18101 NW Evergreen ParkwayBeaverton, OR 97006Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Hines, OR629 North US-20Hines, OR 97738Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Hood River, OR - Anchor Way504 Anchor WayHood River, OR 97031Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Klamath Falls, OR2655 Shasta WayKlamath Falls, OR 97603-4455Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Lincoln City, OR1500 SE East Devils Lake Rd.Lincoln City, OR 97367-2660Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Madras, OR1537 Northeast Highway 97Madras, OR 97741Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Medford, OR2000 Crater Lake HighwayMedford, OR 97504Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Myrtle Creek, OR200 Pruner RoadMyrtle Creek, OR 97457Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Ontario, OR203 East Street WestOntario, OR 97914Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Pendleton, OR46510 Wildhorse Blvd.Pendleton, OR 97801-6043Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Portland, OR10280 Northeast Cascades ParkwayPortland, OR 97220
Salem, OR3790 Center Street NESalem, OR 97301Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Sandy, OR16625 SE 362nd Dr.Sandy, OR 97055-9247Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Seaside, OR1111 N Roosevelt Dr.Seaside, OR 97138-4607Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Springfield, OR - Kruse Way919 Kruse WaySpringfield, OR 97477-1074Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
The Dalles, OR2114 West 6th StreetThe Dalles, OR 97058-3524Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Tigard, OR9585 Southwest Washington Square RoadPortland, OR 97223Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Tillamook, OR2325 Latimer Road NorthTillamook, OR 97141Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Troutdale, OR450 Northwest 257th WayTroutdale, OR 97060Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Woodburn, OR255 N Arney RdWoodburn, OR 97071-8460Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

And there are 8 more supercharges that are being installed right now, and more in the works..just sayin.

[Nicholas Carey]

Oregon

Baker City, OR1 Sunridge LaneBaker City, OR 97814-2254Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Bandon, OR120 Michigan Ave. NEBandon, OR 97411Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Bend, OR61535 S Highway 97Bend, OR 97702-2154Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Boardman, OR101 Olson RoadBoardman, OR 97818Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Detroit Lake, OR210 D StreetDetroit, OR 97342-0018Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Grants Pass, OR1900 NW 6th St.Grants Pass, OR 97526-3402Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Harrisburg, OR32900 Diamond Hill RoadHarrisburg, OR 97446Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Hillsboro, OR18101 NW Evergreen ParkwayBeaverton, OR 97006Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Hines, OR629 North US-20Hines, OR 97738Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Hood River, OR - Anchor Way504 Anchor WayHood River, OR 97031Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Klamath Falls, OR2655 Shasta WayKlamath Falls, OR 97603-4455Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Lincoln City, OR1500 SE East Devils Lake Rd.Lincoln City, OR 97367-2660Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Madras, OR1537 Northeast Highway 97Madras, OR 97741Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Medford, OR2000 Crater Lake HighwayMedford, OR 97504Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Myrtle Creek, OR200 Pruner RoadMyrtle Creek, OR 97457Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Ontario, OR203 East Street WestOntario, OR 97914Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Pendleton, OR46510 Wildhorse Blvd.Pendleton, OR 97801-6043Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Portland, OR10280 Northeast Cascades ParkwayPortland, OR 97220
Salem, OR3790 Center Street NESalem, OR 97301Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Sandy, OR16625 SE 362nd Dr.Sandy, OR 97055-9247Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Seaside, OR1111 N Roosevelt Dr.Seaside, OR 97138-4607Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Springfield, OR - Kruse Way919 Kruse WaySpringfield, OR 97477-1074Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
The Dalles, OR2114 West 6th StreetThe Dalles, OR 97058-3524Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Tigard, OR9585 Southwest Washington Square RoadPortland, OR 97223Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

Tillamook, OR2325 Latimer Road NorthTillamook, OR 97141Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Troutdale, OR450 Northwest 257th WayTroutdale, OR 97060Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752
Woodburn, OR255 N Arney RdWoodburn, OR 97071-8460Roadside Assistance : (877) 798-3752

And there are 8 more supercharges that are being installed right now, and more in the works..just sayin.

You're kind of making David's point for him.

If you're on the I-5 or on the 101 (coast highway), you're [probably] good. And most of the chargers near I-5 are in/around greater Portland.

In between you got bupkus. Go east, and you're generally a long way from an extension cord.

A5873B24-D5A6-4ECA-84F4-E48B838103E1.jpg

[MushCreek]

I could see us getting an EV for our next new car, if we can afford one. We currently have a '16 RAV4, and it's a practical and relatively efficient form of transportation. Our 'commute' to see our grandson in Tampa is 600 miles. We make two stops, which should be doable assuming our proposed vehicle does as well as a Tesla. Another hour added to the trip wouldn't matter to us. Since we're retired, we don't do a lot of around-town driving, so range would be a moot point. Since I'm cheap, I'd rig up a solar panel array for charging at home. Charge rate doesn't matter much, the RAV4 hasn't left our garage since Wednesday. Since we make this trip often, we've learned the best (and worst) routes and travel times. Sunday morning is great. Stopping for gas and lunch at noon is a bad idea. If we had an EV, we'd soon learn when and where to stop for charging.

[Garret]

I'd love to get a pure EV for the next car. Ain't gonna happen though. While EVs may be wonderful in SoCal - not so much in rural northern areas. As said - lower range in winter, and fewer charging stations. Not only fewer, but most are low charging rate. Also as mentioned, in many places the grid simply can't handle the number of high rate charging systems needed.

For some folks - those who do not do any long distance travel, an EV will work. It'd also work as a commuter car - as long as you can charge at home and have an ICE or Hybrid 2nd car.

I'd like to see (yeah, good luck with that), EVs designed to have less power (I don't freakin' need 600HP!) in a smaller chassis (I also don't need/want a giant SUV). How about something the size of a Model 3 or a little smaller with 1/2 the power & bigger batteries to get an honest 400 miles in winter? That could work around here - but it's not sexy enough. I'd also like to see plug-in hybrids with more emphasis on battery. A friend recently got a Rav4 plug-in. 30 miles on battery (closer to 20 in winter) is pretty useless unless you live in an area where you could be using public transit instead.

[Breakaway]

only down $205 from their 52 week high

But up $175 a share from its original offering.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Todd D]

I don't see us buying an EV. We are both in our 70s and we have two newish gasoline powered vehicles (2015 Subaru Forester and 2019 Ram 1500). The total annual mileage we put on the two cars is around 8,000. In other words, those two vehicles will certainly last the rest of our driving lives. On top of that the closest fast charger to us is ~60 miles away. Yes there are a few level 2 chargers on Mount Desert Island (around 25-30 total charge points), but many of them are seasonal in that they are at seasonal hotels. On top of that the hotels limit access to hotel customers. Anecdotally, there are two level 2 charge points in Southwest Harbor, ME. Two days ago they were buried in snow when the parking lot they are in was plowed. Those two charge points will not be available until late April when the snow pile melts (if they still work after being frozen into a pile of snow/ice for months).

Back to us buying an EV. Charging is a big issue, to install a home charger I would have to add a sub panel since my current panel is fully utilized. The truck is parked outside so winter charging would be slow given the need to use some of the power from the charger to keep the battery warm. Then there is the issue of power usage. If we replaced both current vehicles with EVs and the average economy of the two vehicles was 2.5 m/kWh, we would use 8,000/2.5 = 3,200 kilowatts per year more than we do now assuming charging was 100% efficient. More likely, given charging one vehicle outside and real world charging efficiency, charging two EVs would add about 3,500 to 4,000 kWh to our annual power consumption. The way our house is set up we currently use about 2,000 kWh per year, so charging EVs would come close to tripling our annual power consumption. That would certainly require upgrading our service from our current 100 amp panel to at least a 200 amp panel and might even require pulling in new service wiring from the pole. If I decided to do that, I might be able to get it done in a year to 18 months given the availability of electricians here, not to mention the cost. Also, to the extent that our electrical usage is typical for our area, a three fold increase in consumption would certainly require significant upgrades to the local electrical grid, not to mention where the additional 200% of current power consumption would come from.

The final thing blocking us from replacing our current gas vehicles with EVs is the cost. EVs are simply too expensive. The price of EVs will have to drop significantly before we will buy one, let alone two. Also the current federal tax credits for EV purchase do us no good. Our retirement income is structured to minimize federal taxes, so the non-refundable nature of the current credits means that we get little to nothing from them. The structure of those credits is such that they favor higher income people. That is exactly the opposite of how they should be structured if their purpose is to encourage wide spread EV adoption. I think there are quite a few people that simply can't afford an EV and that will significantly limit uptake.

[sonofswen]

"You're kind of making David's point for him." Yes, because we have gone to Most places I would want to take a Tesla in the state. The other places would be better suited to a 4 x 4 pickup. Just my experience. We can make it out to Malheur National Wildlife Refuge

but don't want to take the gravel and dirt roads that are available there. I suggest that members of the the Bilge chip in and buy us a Rivian Pick-up with the 500 mile battery pack and I will do some testing. I'll let you know when they are actually available.

[Dan McCosh]

I could see us getting an EV for our next new car, if we can afford one. We currently have a '16 RAV4, and it's a practical and relatively efficient form of transportation. Our 'commute' to see our grandson in Tampa is 600 miles. We make two stops, which should be doable assuming our proposed vehicle does as well as a Tesla. Another hour added to the trip wouldn't matter to us. Since we're retired, we don't do a lot of around-town driving, so range would be a moot point. Since I'm cheap, I'd rig up a solar panel array for charging at home. Charge rate doesn't matter much, the RAV4 hasn't left our garage since Wednesday. Since we make this trip often, we've learned the best (and worst) routes and travel times. Sunday morning is great. Stopping for gas and lunch at noon is a bad idea. If we had an EV, we'd soon learn when and where to stop for charging.

There is a RAV4 Prime model, with 42 miles of EV range, plus an IC powertrain for longer trips.

[jpatrick]

Some hold Tesla up as the guiding light and savior of the world. But many, including myself, choose to not touch a Musk tainted vehicle with a stick. So until the car manufacturers get on track, and the charger network gets better established, I will enjoy driving our Toyota hybrid. It gets great mileage and is downright pleasurable to drive.

Jeff

[Joe (SoCal)]

Some hold Tesla up as the guiding light and savior of the world. But many, including myself, choose to not touch a Musk tainted vehicle with a stick. So until the car manufacturers get on track, and the charger network gets better established, I will enjoy driving our Toyota hybrid. It gets great mileage and is downright pleasurable to drive.

Jeff

Yes but I wonder how many Elon hating non Tesla EV's owners would flock to the Tesla Super Charger Network if Elon opens it up to non Tesla EV's

[LeeG]

a bigger pic



EVs are made with fossil fuels.

[Jimmy W]

Looks like a bumpy ride downhill.

tsla 5yr.png

[sonofswen]

Yes but I wonder how many Elon hating non Tesla EV's owners would flock to the Tesla Super Charger Network if Elon opens it up to non Tesla EV's

Truth.

[Dan McCosh]

Yes but I wonder how many Elon hating non Tesla EV's owners would flock to the Tesla Super Charger Network if Elon opens it up to non Tesla EV's

Standardizing EV charging is inevitable.

[David G]

Standardizing EV charging is inevitable.

It would seems so. But outside forces can sometimes delay rational policy for a long time.

[David G]

For those who subscribe - even partially - to the notion that: if it can't be recycled or re-used, it shouldn't be built --

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/ev-...campaign=fbads

[Canoeyawl]

It would seems so. But outside forces can sometimes delay rational policy for a long time.

It would take a multi-billionaire to screw that up for the rest of us...

[Garret]

Standardizing EV charging is inevitable.

But will take far longer than necessary

It would seems so. But outside forces can sometimes delay rational policy for a long time.

Expecting "rational" when greed is in play is wishful thinking IMO.

It would take a multi-billionaire to screw that up for the rest of us...

While he's the most likely, any mfr could do it. Look at headlights & other bulbs as an example.

[Boatbum]

Tesla Supercharging network is practically a flawless experience. Maybe one day Elon will open up to other EV's

The network is impressive. But not nearly enough if everyone adopts EV's. San Luis Obispo Supercharger station:

[LeeG]

The network is impressive. But not nearly enough if everyone adopts EV's. San Luis Obispo Supercharger station:

That’s ok, everyone won’t adopt EVs just as everyone can’t afford a new car. As time goes on and the biosphere gets cooked the cost of personal transportation will become greater with personal vehicle use declining. Unless Venezuela, Russia, Iran and a few other exporters get oil production up in the next five years things will get hairy as US tight oil peaks. And all that oil is vitally necessary for the refining and transport of resources to build EVs and other upgrades in infrastructure efficiency.

[Katherine]

Some hold Tesla up as the guiding light and savior of the world. But many, including myself, choose to not touch a Musk tainted vehicle with a stick. So until the car manufacturers get on track, and the charger network gets better established, I will enjoy driving our Toyota hybrid. It gets great mileage and is downright pleasurable to drive.

Jeff

Tesla's biggest problem is Elon Musk. He's such a polarizing personality he turns people off from even considering a Tesla. Also, the Tesla platforms are beginning to show their age, they're overdue for a refresh.

[GregH]

Dave I know you have a hard on for hybrids, but I hate to tell you the industry is moving more and more towards plug in EV's and in the next 5 years full plug in EVs will go from 1/2 to 3/4 or more. If you ever go to the LA or NY auto show you will notice Its just the way the car industry is moving. So bye bye hybrid's

I'm really surprised to learn of this. Although I'm not at all into either hybrids or EV's, a very close friend is. He & his SWMBO have two Toyota Prius' - one an early model (2005?) and the other 2020. They love them both- have never had a bit of trouble with either. He tells me that on long trips to see kids, and others, he gets over 50 MPH!!! That's upwards of a 500+ mile range between fill-ups! Seems to me that this is the best of both worlds!

[Dan McCosh]

But will take far longer than necessary



Expecting "rational" when greed is in play is wishful thinking IMO.



While he's the most likely, any mfr could do it. Look at headlights & other bulbs as an example.

A better example would be the standard three-prong electric outlet.

[Bill Fisher]

There is talk at work that we'll be getting a hybrid fire engine soon, battery most of the time but with an onboard diesel to run things when the charge gets too low. Slated to go into a new station that will have the capacity to run the chargers built in.

That is intriguing!
I can see specific places that might work, my district being one of them. It’s a little hilly but I think the drive train would still be OK. We’ve hydrants every 1500ft with pressures between 70 and 100psi so you hardly have to throttle up the engine (as long as you’re not trying to max out the gun on the truck). Most of our calls are smoke, CO and cats up a tree so the battery would serve most of our work and we still have the diesel engine for the few real fires. Does the electric motor power the pump? I wonder how responsive it would be (probably too responsive, it probably would need some kind of limiter)?

Next town over, wouldn’t work. Not a hydrant in site. They are the drafting and shuttle kings and needs lots or power.

Bill

[Dan McCosh]

David I simply said:




By 2028 Plug In EV's will surpass hybrids. Whats to figure out ? I will admit that hybrids will stick around in a marginal way much like a lot of out of date tech continues to hang around, but it will be very marginal and for the people like David who will cling on to the desire that hybrids are the way to go.

Fact is every major Auto company is already jumping off the transient Hybrid bandwagon

Toyota isn't "jumping off" hybrids, and GM just announced the construction of two new V8 engine plants, matching the new battery plants already announced. Toyota seems to be heading towards a "hybrid" transmission offered on virtually its whole lineup. (It would appear that a "hybrid" is displacing a hydraulic automatic transmission). Volume projections tend to be flakey, since much of the data refers to "electrification", whatever that is supposed to mean.

[Garret]

A better example would be the standard three-prong electric outlet.

But the outlet is not a standard for autos. Electrical code has indeed produced good standards - but where is the similarity for cars & trucks? Headlights went from 1 style (7" round) to 2 (7 & 5 1/2), to 4 (added rectangular) to today's who knows how many different kinds of bulbs & bulb types. I'm not saying new headlights aren't (mostly*) better - just that there are no standards.

Fuses are another example. The blade style was a significant improvement over glass tubes, but then they went to multiple sizes even for the same amperage. Don't get me started on bolt head sizes & types...

* my 2014 GMC headlights are pitiful compared to those on my 2004 Chevy & they were only slightly better than my 89 F250. However, even in today's $ - I can buy new bulbs for either the 04 or the 89 for less than what the 14 ones cost.