MotorTrend Checks in on EVs

[Too Little Time]

There is a school of thought, to which I mostly subscribe, which states that every drive of more than an hour represents a failure of public transportation policy.

The fact that solo-driving is cheaper and/or more convenient than mass transit to a major urban hub is a really damning reflection on our entire approach to transportation.

(Likewise, every flight of less than two hours... assuming no large bodies of water are in the way)

https://urbanreforminstitute.org/201...idies-by-mode/ has a reasonable estimate of transportation costs.

Considering that my car usually holds 2 or more on trips - where public transportation might provide a reasonable alternative, public transportation would be more expensive. It is not a failure of policy, it is just economics.

[Breakaway]

https://urbanreforminstitute.org/201...idies-by-mode/ has a reasonable estimate of transportation costs.

Considering that my car usually holds 2 or more on trips - where public transportation might provide a reasonable alternative, public transportation would be more expensive. It is not a failure of policy, it is just economics.

It all, as ever, depends.

Two people to a game or show in NYC from my place..

R/T Train fare $26 each.

Car: 140 miles worth of gas; call it 5 gallons in a small car, equals $18 / $9.00 each
Toll: $17 / $8.50 each
Parking 4 hours ( street*, meter) $22.50. $11.25 each
Parking 4 Hours( Lot or Garage) $50.00. $25.00 each

$28.75 each ( street parking)
Or
$42.50 each ( garage parking)


* If can be found

So, its not cheaper, though it could be if you drove with more people and found street parking.

Convenience? I personally find the train way more convenient.
Time: Train is two hours.
Car is 90 minutes outside of rush hour; two hours in rush hour.
Kevin

[Too Little Time]

It all, as ever, depends.

You are only considering the fare you pay. There are government subsidies and taxes to consider. But, yes, one can find some instances.

The link I posted showed maybe $.80/mile total for rail.

[Breakaway]

You are only considering the fare you pay. There are government subsidies and taxes to consider. But, yes, one can find some instances.

The link I posted showed maybe $.80/mile total for rail.

While its true government subsidies pay part of the cost, I cant believe anyone decides to use, or not use, public transit based on anything but out of pocket expenses.

After all, if we are to consider subsidies and taxes then we must attribute them to travel by automobile and raise those costs as well, dont we?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Garret]

While its true government subsidies pay part of the cost, I cant believe anyone decides to use, or not use, public transit based on anything but out of pocket expenses.

After all, if we are to consider subsidies and taxes then we must attribute them to travel by automobile and raise those costs as well, dont we?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Exactly, gasoline powered vehicles have all sorts of subsides.

[robm]

There are government subsidies and taxes to consider.

TANSTAAFL. But if you have to pay for it anyway, you might as well eat it.

[David G]

TANSTAAFL is an oversimplified Libertian phrase that is often far more true than people realize. And sometimes not true in the slightest. And everything in between. 'It Depends' is more often accurate.

[Nicholas Carey]

Exactly, gasoline powered vehicles have all sorts of subsides.

Including the monies expended by us via the Pentagon in defense of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, .... and ensuring the safety of the Persian Gulf. All to make sure the petroleum keeps flowing.

And that I turn creates even more ancillary costs.

All effectively subsidies to the oil companies. If it wasn't for the oil, we'd have little to no interest in that neck of the woods. What does Saudi Arabia bring to the table, outside of oil, that's of any significance.

[Nicholas Carey]

Honda and GMC partnering with hydrogen fuel cells.

Hydrogen fuel cells make a lot more sense that batteries, just due to the speed of refueling, and the weight savings over batteries.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...gm-2023-02-02/

TOKYO, Feb 2 (Reuters) - Japan's Honda Motor Co (7267.T) said it will start producing a new hydrogen fuel cell system jointly developed with General Motors Co (GM.N) this year and gradually step up sales this decade, in a bid to expand its hydrogen business.

Honda will target annual sales of around 2,000 units of the new system in the middle of this decade, the company said on Thursday, aiming to boost that to 60,000 units per year in 2030.

The Japanese carmaker is seeking to expand the use of its new system not only for its own fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs), but also commercial vehicles such as heavy trucks, as stationary power stations and in construction machinery.

Honda will start production of the hydrogen fuel cell system through its joint venture with GM this year, Honda senior managing executive director Shinji Aoyama told reporters during a company event in Tokyo.

With the "next-generation" system, the company aims to more than double durability compared with its older fuel cell system and to bring costs down by two-thirds.

"While commercial vehicles are in use all over the world, they'll likely see electrification just as with passenger cars," said Tetsuya Hasebe, general manager of Honda's hydrogen business development division.

That would likely lead to a divergence in trucks using batteries and those running on fuel cells, he added.

[Garret]

Including the monies expended by us via the Pentagon in defense of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, .... and ensuring the safety of the Persian Gulf. All to make sure the petroleum keeps flowing.

And that I turn creates even more ancillary costs.

All effectively subsidies to the oil companies. If it wasn't for the oil, we'd have little to no interest in that neck of the woods. What does Saudi Arabia bring to the table, outside of oil, that's of any significance.

To many those "subsides" don't count - but thank you for pointing them out. SA not only brings us oil, but it buys a lot of military hardware - so that's important to the MIC. What else do they bring? Repression, murder, terrorism for starters.

[LeeG]

Including the monies expended by us via the Pentagon in defense of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, .... and ensuring the safety of the Persian Gulf. All to make sure the petroleum keeps flowing.

And that I turn creates even more ancillary costs.

All effectively subsidies to the oil companies. If it wasn't for the oil, we'd have little to no interest in that neck of the woods. What does Saudi Arabia bring to the table, outside of oil, that's of any significance.

All those monies are more subsidies for the MIC than “ensuring the safety of the Persian Gulf”.

sure, sure, sure we have a strategic interest in the Gulf and so do a few billion people unable to survive without its exports but is our navy out protecting the free trade of grain and computer chips around the world? Nah, ensuring the oil keeps flowing is MIC narrative for relevance. As is the idea of militarizing the Middle East to keep Russia out. We developed an arms manufacturing capacity and the Middle East has countries who can buy it. We poured billions into Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel then invaded Iraq, which surprisingly didn’t disrupt oil all that much but sure effed up millions of peoples lives.

[Too Little Time]

While its true government subsidies pay part of the cost, I cant believe anyone decides to use, or not use, public transit based on anything but out of pocket expenses.

After all, if we are to consider subsidies and taxes then we must attribute them to travel by automobile and raise those costs as well, dont we?

And the link I posted did just that. I find thee numbers reasonable for a public policy discussion.

But I will admit, in my day to day driving I use my immediate out of pocket expenses rather than considering the subsidies.

If I go to the Grand Canyon for a day hike, I am comfortable driving, sleeping in my car both there and on the drive. My wife insists on having my daughter come with. Flying. Car rental. Rooms at the Grand Canyon. It seems unfair to use either as a base for argument.

[Joe (SoCal)]

So it's not just the supercharging network



Tesla Model S breaks winter range record

Tesla Model S has broken the winter range record in a new wide-ranging cold weather range test conducted in Norway.

For years now, Norway has been conducting extensive range and efficiency tests in cold weather, which is a concern for many potential EV buyers living in regions with harsh winters.
This year’s test was the most extensive to date with 29 different EV models.
The Tesla Model S stole the show this year.
After not being sold in Europe for almost two years following a design refresh, The Model S joined the winter range test, and it did phenomenally.
The tests were conducted on this loop between Oslo and Hjerkinn at temperatures between -5C and -10C (via Norway’s Motor.no):

https://electrek.co/2023/02/01/tesla...-range-record/

[George Jung]

looks like tesla stock is on the rebound, as well.

[Breakaway]

So it's not just the supercharging network



Tesla Model S breaks winter range record


Tesla Model S has broken the winter range record in a new wide-ranging cold weather range test conducted in Norway.

For years now, Norway has been conducting extensive range and efficiency tests in cold weather, which is a concern for many potential EV buyers living in regions with harsh winters.
This year’s test was the most extensive to date with 29 different EV models.
The Tesla Model S stole the show this year.
After not being sold in Europe for almost two years following a design refresh, The Model S joined the winter range test, and it did phenomenally.
The tests were conducted on this loop between Oslo and Hjerkinn at temperatures between -5C and -10C (via Norway’s Motor.no):

https://electrek.co/2023/02/01/tesla...-range-record/

Good news for all, really.

I wonder what the test conditions were, specifically. Speed, load etc

[bob winter]

Not wanting to be a wet blanket but -5 and -10 are not especially cold by Canadian standards.

[leikec]

And a wet blanket would be pretty stiff in those conditions…

Jeff C

[LeeG]

So it's not just the supercharging network



Tesla Model S breaks winter range record

[FONT="]Tesla Model S has broken the winter range record in a new wide-ranging cold weather range test conducted in Norway.

[/FONT][FONT="]For years now, Norway has been conducting extensive range and efficiency tests in cold weather, which is a concern for many potential EV buyers living in regions with harsh winters.[/FONT]
[FONT="]This year’s test was the most extensive to date with 29 different EV models.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The Tesla Model S stole the show this year.[/FONT]
[FONT="]After not being sold in Europe for almost two years following a design refresh, The Model S joined the winter range test, and it did phenomenally.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The tests were conducted on this loop between Oslo and Hjerkinn at temperatures between -5C and -10C (via Norway’s Motor.no):

https://electrek.co/2023/02/01/tesla...-range-record/[/FONT]

ya know using a $100,000 Tesla as some kind of reference for EVs range is kinda silly.

[Joe (SoCal)]

Good news for all, really.

I wonder what the test conditions were, specifically. Speed, load etc

Tesla’s come with a unique heat pump and thermal battery conditioning that helps a great deal in extreme cold weather and improves battery and range

Cold Weather Features in Every Tesla

Tesla vehicles are designed to maximize efficiency and keep you cozy in cold weather.

Traction and Stability Controls Responds instantly to changing road conditions Integrated Heat Pump Draws excess heat from the powertrain to warm your vehicle and maximize range Remote Defrost Melts away snow or ice while you stay comfortable inside Scheduled Departure Preconditions your battery and warms your cabin, seats and steering wheel before you go

[Paul Pless]

a unique heat pump and thermal battery conditioning

you really believe that? the 'unique' part?

[Ted Hoppe]

you really believe that? the 'unique' part?

those came from Samsung and Bosch patients. So i heard from engineers and patient holders...

[Jimmy W]

14 to 23F? It was colder than that here in Mississippi around Christmas. I would expect a $100,000 car to handle that. The Chinese made Maxus did a lot better as far as percentage of range deviation and the Chinese made MGs were very close.

[Joe (SoCal)]

you really believe that? the 'unique' part?

Hey Unique shamique the proof is in the cold weather comparison Test where the Tesla blew away the competition.

[Joe (SoCal)]

those came from Samsung and Bosch patients. So i heard from engineers and patient holders...

I didn’t see your Fiat even make the list Oh and why didn’t you take it on your frozen tundra trip ?

[Too Little Time]

Good news for all, really.

I wonder what the test conditions were, specifically. Speed, load etc

For a long time there have been hype milers. They use all manner of practices that would not be useful in day to day driving. But they get amazing mileage in ICE vehicles.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/06...miles-per-kwh/

A Renault Zoe with a 52 kWh battery covered 475.4 miles in 24 hours.

https://wri-india.org/blog/decoding-...actual-mileage

the optimum drive range in an e-car can be achieved at a temperature of 21 degrees Celsius within a speed range of 30-40 kmph

[Garret]

14 to 23F? It was colder than that here in Mississippi around Christmas. I would expect a $100,000 car to handle that. The Chinese made Maxus did a lot better as far as percentage of range deviation and the Chinese made MGs were very close.

Yep - that's a normal late November or early April day here.

I'd be more interested in how the Model 3 did. As mentioned above - a number of other cars came close on % drop - though none were close on actual range.

[Ted Hoppe]

I didn’t see your Fiat even make the list Oh and why didn’t you take it on your frozen tundra trip ?

Civilized people do not drive urban electric cars to the tundra. Next time we may be flying in.

20160728-JI-Wrangell+St+Elias+National+Park-_DSF5748.jpg

I would enjoy doing a little 911 ICE adventure...

[sonofswen]

[Breakaway]

At a recent boat show, many electric -powered boats were introduced.
To a one, each of those builders commented on a " big change" in five years that would make electric power more viable and widely accepted
To a one, none would say what this tech jump in five years is supposed to be.

Kevin