rusbots and xibots

[George.]

none of you know anything

We know a bot when we see one.

[Keith Wilson]

Nice work, George.; you gave him a good sticky tarbaby to whack at.

[CWSmith]

Sometimes a bot is nothing more than a cry for attention.

[Keith Wilson]

Mr Davies, you are intelligent enough to understand that a photograph like that is not reliable evidence of much anything. It could have been taken in 2015. That doesn't mean your claims are right or wrong, just that the photo nether supports or refutes them.

I like the colorful figures, though. The pot-belly armor is a nice touch. (Ah, never mind, looking again, probably not armor.)

[George.]

Mr Davies, you are intelligent enough to understand that a photograph like that is not reliable evidence of much anything.

Of course he is. But he thinks we are not.

[WI-Tom]

The "bilge groupthink" most certainly does exist, however ....

Does it, really? When a number of people share a common belief or common interpretation, is that automatically "groupthink"? Or is it conceivable that they are intelligent people who have arrived at their opinions thoughtfully, after careful consideration of issues, facts, and evidence?

Is it "groupthink" when a vast number of people believe that the earth is roughly spherical rather than flat?

Is it "groupthink" when a group of people believe that the 2020 presidential election in the U.S. was generally fair and honest?

Or is it "groupthink" only when a group of people believe things that contradict what YOU believe?

Now here:

The "no reason" part of that is where we differ. Now you may not object to being called a douche, a wanker, a troll, a "xibot", a tool of the communist party, etc etc. But to me those are insulting things to call someone. It's especially insulting when a person claims "millions are dying, hospitals are overrun, corpses three high in the streets !" and I reply with photographs, only to get nothing back but more insults.

As they say, walk fifty feet in my shoes through the gantlet of people here who cannot come up with any rational evidence for their beliefs, so they resort to insults. You may find your positions hardening, too !

I agree. The discussion has been hostile and aggressive, and the hostility and aggression has not been one-sided. But it has been pretty successful at reducing the value of what could/should have been a fascinating thread about a place many of us know very little about.

Tom

[L.W. Baxter]

Mr Davies, you are intelligent enough to understand that a photograph like that is not reliable evidence of much anything. It could have been taken in 2015. That doesn't mean your claims are right or wrong, just that the photo nether supports or refutes them.

depends on who posts them. there are many who post here who can be taken at their word.

credibility is the coin of the realm. if you don't have credibility, you have nothing. so, don't lie about yourself. and don't play games with the meaning or intent of your own words.

[George Jung]

The "no reason" part of that is where we differ. Now you may not object to being called a douche, a wanker, a troll, a "xibot", a tool of the communist party, etc etc. But to me those are insulting things to call someone. It's especially insulting when a person claims "millions are dying, hospitals are overrun, corpses three high in the streets !" and I reply with photographs, only to get nothing back but more insults.

I didn't wade through the detritus that is this thread, but my recollection is - only one person here has claimed 'millions dying, hospitals overrun, corpses three-high in the streets'. And that person was .... HRD.
Seems an old trick - pile up the straw, knock it down. Or conversely - blame your 'enemies' of that which you are guilty.

I echo the sentiment - this could have been a good, informative thread, but instead, we've got this.

[George.]

only one person here has claimed 'millions dying, hospitals overrun, corpses three-high in the streets'. And that person was .... HRD.

Exactly.

What some of us did say is that the official Chinese covid death figures are obviously lies, and that unless the Chinese are a different species of human, their sudden "herd immunity" policy will lead to a million deaths or more, given omicron death rates and the inefficacy of their vaccines.

[George.]

The "uygur geocide" (denial denial denial)

You are almost funny, HR, except when you become a genocide denier.

People are being put into reeducation camps for no reason other than their ethnic culture.

Hundreds of thousands of people are suffering.

What you are doing is just evil. It makes you complicit.

[Osborne Russell]

Who was the guy that got killed by a mine? I forget. I asked him what he was doing, who he worked for, he gave no answer. I asked his executor too, he also gave no answer. I asked HR whether he was a commie, he says he's beyond that, knowing so much about the People's Republic of China, where he lives.

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, xibuschka.

[WI-Tom]

Right. Just like your hundreds of millions of deaths and the morgues and hospitals stacked three-high with corpses. It's garbage.

A satellite photo that shows buildings ! ooooh ! And four whole interviews with unidentified people that we don't even get to read !

You've got nothing. Nothing but your own deranged fantasies about the evil ruling communist party. Not even the beginning of the semblanceof a clue.

What a joke.

And yet, here on this thread people have been admonished for not believing inferences drawn from a few photos provided by a semi-anonymous forum user, who happens to be in agreement with 2 other WBF members who have spent time in China. That's 3 whole people if I have my arithmetic right.

Tom

[sandtown]

I used to have some of the yi fen notes, with the picture of the 1950s truck on them.!

I had about ten square feet of paper currencies from all over the world on the walls of my uni office . . .

I gave them away to the yoot when I retired.

I always liked the Canadian notes . .

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/522206519264895987/

[sandtown]

your lot hold hands and candles and sing songs about peace. It's not going to help.

You are mighty brave at a distance . .

[WI-Tom]

You should be better than this. At the time I took the photos I distinctly said "Here are photos, I understand they are just photos, if you like I am happy to go back tomorrow with that day's newspaper or whatever."

I am not going to identify myself online because that is stupid but to any real person, I am happy to give the cv and prove who I am.

The "other wbf member" is known to all of you, is not hiding his information, does not make serious and unsubstantiated claims and if he did, would be willing to verify them.

This is totally and entirely different from satellite photos which show nothing and "interviews" with four supposed victims of this wholesale genocide, whom we are not even allowed to identify. Worse yet, the "interviews" are not even printed in an unedited form. Also, the interviewers have zero credibility after lying through their teeth to the governments of the United States and the United Nations.

The situations are nowhere near equivalent.

The kinda funny part is, the people who have lived in China are in agreement, while all of you who have never been are also in agreement. But the agreements do not match

The THREE people who (claim to) have lived in China--three people we will never get to meet--all agree?

Not sure how three people I never met are more credible than four people I never met.

As for those of us who haven't lived in China being in agreement... Well, agreement about what? Agreement that China's government is dishonest in many ways, including its reporting of COVID data? That China's government has motive, opportunity, and a track record of controlling what information reaches the public? That Chinese treatment of minority populations deserves close examination, and may be approaching the definition of genocide under the strict terms of international law?

Yes, I think most of us agree with that. Do you deny it? Does ACB deny it? Perhaps you two are not so far in agreement as you assume.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

I don't remember another but if there is one, fine. Probably everything in life is hearsay, so you have to choose. Do you choose Mr Craig-Bennett or do you choose George. ?

as for "claiming" to live in China, sure. I'll give you a phone number then walk over to the PSB. You can ask them if this is China. I hope your chinese is good because their english leaves something to be desired.

Hey, it's your game to question sources, not mine. I'm just playing along. I actually believe you.

So, I'm supposed to question sources (but not YOU). And I'm supposed to believe TWO people (I think there was a third person who commented) I'll never meet, and NOT believe FOUR people I'll never meet.

It does get a little confusing...

Most of us have more questions than hardened positions. I think our (or at least my) questions are:

1. What is the real COVID situation in China? How honest has China's reporting of that been? (I'd say "not very honest" but I'll listen to other arguments)
2. What is the real situation with the Uighurs? How closely does it line up with the definitions of genocide under international law? How acceptable is it? What is the appropriate response?
3. To what extent is the "happy acceptance" of China's people for their government a choice (as you seem to believe), and to what extent has a long history of authoritarian governance removed people's capacity or willingness to make choices like that?
4. What is the appropriate response to Chinese expansionism in the South China Sea, and how to deal with a China that claims Taiwan (which doesn't claim China back)?
5. How has Western bias and ignorance, AND Chinese bias and ignorance, contributed to the relationships between China and the West?

Tom

[WI-Tom]

Probably everything in life is hearsay, so you have to choose. Do you choose Mr Craig-Bennett or do you choose George. ?

No one has to choose between 2 alternatives. Binary thinking is a choice, not a necessity. Reality is rarely, if ever, a string of simple binary choices.

Tom

[JayInOz]

Good luck Tom. In his past life here he also said that the bad things we were hearing about the North Korean regime and the life of the ordinary inhabitants there was also a pack of lies. Expecting the truth about the Uighurs is asking a lot. It's pretty sad that someone could offend so many people and display so much unpleasantness as to receive a life time ban from the forum and then change handles and sneak back again to the place where they were so disliked. Life in China must be just awesome if this is his preferred escape. JayInOz

[Canoeyawl]

No, you are welcome to ask questions. That's exactly the point. And I am happy to asnwer them, to the best of my ability. (Just please try to not use the words xibot, douche, wanker, and so on.) ... take Biden, Blinken, the editorial staffs of the Post, Time etc out and run them through the guillotine. Those people are aggressive, lying sh1t.

.

Yes, just try...

[George.]

take Biden, Blinken, the editorial staffs of the Post, Time etc out and run them through the guillotine. Those people are aggressive, lying sh1t.

... If you replaced this scum with actual human beings (if you can find any in the US)

Can you find any actual human beings in China? Or just xibots foaming at the mouth and covid-proof erectus?

Fortunately the CCP will not be replacing anyone, in the US or Taiwan. An autocracy with no freedom of thought will always fall behind, and eventually fall apart. It doesn't matter how many people you have if you don't let them think for themselves.

PS: Xi is the aggressive, lying xit.

[dutchpp]

Taiwan doesn't belong to China, it isn't Chinese soil.
If I use the Chinese line of thinking I could even claim the country should be Dutch, but I'm sure the island actually belongs to the people of Taiwan.

[dutchpp]

No.

[Canoeyawl]

A good point.

Now for you, what adjective do you suggest we use for a government that insists on a paranoid, ignorant, aggressive, even stupid militarist policy towards any foreign country that doesn't fall to the floor and grovel at our feet ? What would be an appropriate adjective ?

.

Without submitting to your limited vocabulary of profanity
perhaps a phrase would suffice?

"Government by the people"

As opposed to "Government by dictatorship"

see: Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Korea et al

Only if one equated money with "wealth" should they choose that way.

[SKIP KILPATRICK]

Good luck Tom. In his past life here he also said that the bad things we were hearing about the North Korean regime and the life of the ordinary inhabitants there was also a pack of lies. Expecting the truth about the Uighurs is asking a lot. It's pretty sad that someone could offend so many people and display so much unpleasantness as to receive a life time ban from the forum and then change handles and sneak back again to the place where they were so disliked. Life in China must be just awesome if this is his preferred escape. JayInOz

Gee-wiz Jay! It like maybe Xibot has you on ignore!

[CWSmith]

Tell it to Jefferson Davis.

Increasingly, I would like to.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Umm.

I have PRC friends and Taiwanese friends.

In two cases my Taiwanese friend is also a friend of my PRC friend. This is not particularly unusual. A huge number of people from Taiwan live and work in the PRC.

I agree with HRD’s account of Taiwan from 1945 down to the death of Chiang KaiShek.

I will point out that Taiwan had been semi-detached on more than one occasion before the Sino-Japanese War ended with the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895. It had been variously the last stronghold of the Ming dynasty, an abode of pirates, and a Dutch colony.

After 1980 Chiang ChingKuo, the elder and legitimate son of Chiang KaiShek, announced to the KMT that since the USA now recognised China the only way for Taiwan to survive under the KMT was to seize the moral high ground by bringing in the rule of law, representative democracy, equal rights for all citizens and adherence to numerous international treaties.

I find this very remarkable. Suppose, for instance, that Syria had done the same thing when Bashar al-Assad, the son of its great dictator, Hafez al-Assad, succeeded him in 2000? How much death and misery might have been avoided?

There was no particular reason for ChingKuo to adopt this path. He had been his father’s right had man in suppressing the native Taiwanese after 1949. Thirty years later he reversed his policy. However, he did it, and Taiwan today is really very different to the rather grim place that it was in the days of Chiang KaiShek.

Anyone who isn’t familiar with the brilliantly successful campaign mounted by Soong MeiLing, the wife of Chiang KaiShek and mother of Chiang ChingKuo, and incidentally sister of Soong ChingLing, friend of Arthur Ransome and President of the People’s Republic of China, to control the American Press coverage of the Chinese Civil War and thus American attitudes and American policy towards “Communist China”, really ought to take a little time to become familiar with the topic before commenting on this thread.

One well known book on the subject is Sterling Segrave’s “The Soong Dynasty”. Start there.

[CWSmith]

Umm.

I have PRC friends and Taiwanese friends.

In two cases my Taiwanese friend is also a friend of my PRC friend. This is not particularly unusual.

Andrew, I'm not exactly sure what you are responding to and there is far too much trolling in this thread to wade through it again, but the people of the PRC have little to do with the government of the PRC.

I'll go further. While I have generally found Chinese people to be very honest, I try not to buy products made there. I've been burned far too many times. A person can get rich manufacturing and shipping poorly made products out of China that do not perform as promised.

[Canoeyawl]

Andrew, I'm not exactly sure what you are responding to and there is far too much trolling in this thread to wade through it again, but the people of the PRC have little to do with the government of the PRC.

I'll go further. While I have generally found Chinese people to be very honest, I try not to buy products made there. I've been burned far too many times. A person can get rich manufacturing and shipping poorly made products out of China that do not perform as promised.

We had a product (316 SS 3500psi valve castings) cast and machined there in multiple small lots of 1000. During the quote process the response was always "we can do that". The casings were impeccable, but they could not control the required close machining tolerances (.0002") and 75% of the parts had to be reworked (here) before they could be delivered to customers. Very expensive in the end as unintended second/ third operations always are. We learned a very expensive lesson.

I used to purchase tooling from China, but too many times it was not what it was represented to be with no real recourse. The response was inevitably "return the product and we will refund your money" but returning anything to China is cost prohibitive to the point of absurdity and it became obvious this was a business model and they were capitalizing on that. As in many business models if a corner can be cut or a step eliminated it will. I no longer purchase directly from China only through a US distributor that can honor the product.

This does not reflect on the people of China, but is does represent a business practice. If the product line had been larger we would have sent a person (engineer) to oversee the manufacturing process. Which in itself was prohibitively expensive.

[CWSmith]

I no longer purchase directly from China only through a US distributor that can honor the product.

This does not reflect on the people of China, ...

This matches my experience perfectly.

[Chip-skiff]

(Just please try to not use the words xibot, douche, wanker, and so on.)

How about: 猴他妈的乌龟?

[George.]

Turned out to be a big nothingburger.

BS:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ly-lives-there

There is no situation with "the Uygurs".

Someday, if they come for you, remember this when they knock on your door: you deserve it.

[George.]

Sorry, HR. She lives in China, just like you. And she is Chinese, so she understands China much better than you, because China, you see, is very very complicated, I am told.

I believe her over you. As for "opinion"... that's all you ever post.

[George.]

And you know this how, exactly ?

How do we know who you are, exactly? You could be a fat kid in a basement in Ohio.

[George.]

Is this in Ohio too?

[L.W. Baxter]

i have seen photos of uyghur people. any or all of the people in blue could be uyghur.