"The Rest is History" - 4 part series on the rise of the Nazis

[TomF]

Final episode released today.

While the first 3 episodes were brilliant, this fourth is a remarkable summation of how Hitler and the Nazis in the 1930s worked this or that aspect of the Weimar Republic's Constitution, and precedents set by less extreme predecessors, to finally take full power.

The hosts were being incredibly careful NOT to draw parallels to various places in the 21st Century world - while acknowledging that such parallels to get drawn. But.

But.

Migod. The preconditions they describe in this last episode ... the decades-old inclination of the Police to see Marxism (extreme or mild) as a mortal enemy, and the similar inclination of the people within institutions like the courts and the military. The willingness to buy into the demonization of "internationalists" or people who do not fully embody the idealized racial profile. The Nazi's steps when they won power but not enough power to make Hitler a dictator ... like taking power in all the provincial legislatures, inventing charges against opponents, etc. The willingness of the population at large to believe propaganda, to make excuses for propaganda's excessive sentiment etc....

Holland and Sandbrook argue that the specific characteristics mean that it would be very difficult to see this replicate - from the detritus of the Great War, to the economic mayhem of Weimar, to etc etc in the expression of nationalism. In particular, today we have the actual example of Nazi Germany standing as a stark warning.

But migod. It takes very little to transpose Brownshirts for Proud Boys and Oathkeepers. The horrifying display of different standards of justice, when prominent people regularly find ways to defy justice (and cheat on taxes) while ordinary people simply stuff the prisons with long sentences for minor offences ...

This should have left me feeling some degree of relief, of being convinced that Fascism would be avoided among modern democracies. But I sure don't believe that. I wonder if Sandbrook and Holland are simply too far, on the other side of the Atlantic, to actually get a true sense of the present danger.

[skuthorp]

See Lebanon, Russia, various Sth American and African countries now and in the past and in the future.
And then there's Fascist Spain, Belgium in Africa….. The labels may be different but the outcomes the same.

I just conclude that humans are like that……….

[Nicholas Scheuer]

I was drawing parallels between the Nazis and the Repugnicans six years ago.

[TomF]

I was a bit later to speak it out loud, Nick, but I hear you. I was just a bit dumbfounded listening earlier today to this final episode, and seeing not a correspondence here or there, but so many parallels in so many different steps of the Nazis' rise to power that ... well..

It's not so much that it's prompted a re-evaluation of my thoughts of Republicans as they're presently found in the wild; I've done thinking about that for a few years now. I found myself today re-evaluating my thoughts about Nazis in their last couple of years before taking power. And that was the eye-opening bit.

[George Jung]

Oh yeah. And 'the Nazi's' know it - but will obfuscate as much as possible. Even going so far as to call liberals 'nazi's'.

This is a shameless mob, that must be brought to heel - once and for all. No more 'rising again'.

[Tom Montgomery]

.
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – George Santayana

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

A point that I would like to offer is that the intellectual Right of my generation were very familiar with both the intellectual underpinning of Nazimus and with the detailed history of its rise, fifty years ago, when most of us thought they were just fools whose personal hygiene was not good enough to give them much of a chance with girls.

They were reading this stuff not as odd byways of history but as handbooks.

They also read Roger Scruton and worshipped Wagner.

https://unherd.com/2020/01/where-are...-philosophers/

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Consider Charles Lindbergh, an American hero of the first order, in the mid 1930's. While his expressed admiration of Germany was undoubtedly based on the advances in their aviation industry, his blindness to what else was evident in the German government, especially to Jews, is frankly appalling.

[AndyG]

And tonight, on my Iplayer, is the BBC's "How the Holocaust Began". So you shoot a few hundred Jews in a trench "over there", and gas a few million "back home" a few months later.

Super-easy. And deeply disturbing. Evil, evil stuff.

Andy

[Tom from Rubicon]

Lindbergh was a queer fellow as was his dad.

[Osborne Russell]

Lindbergh was a queer fellow as was his dad.

He flew the Atlantic solo. A first.

Our ancestors were who they were. If you can match them on their terms -- well, that is the question of your life.

Of course they were caught in The Matrix. Like, you're not?

[Dan McCosh]

The problem with trying to compare Hitler's rise to power and contemporary political issues is that by the time Hitler took over full control of Germany, he had assembled a private army more than 10 times the size of the state's military. While there was a Nazi party in Michigan consisting of some 20 members, whose leader once ran for the US House of Representatives as the Republican candidate (getting about 40% of the popular vote), you really don't see millions of armed troops marching in the streets these days. Political maneuvering aside, Hitler's power mainly was exercised by executing his opponents.

[TomF]

He flew the Atlantic solo. A first.

Our ancestors were who they were. If you can match them on their terms -- well, that is the question of your life.

Of course they were caught in The Matrix. Like, you're not?

That's always the challenge, and I haven't found a reliable way to know when I'm facing it squarely, and when I'm not.

I mean, you rightly observe that we're caught in The Matrix right now. Or rather, we're unaware of aspects of oppression which are inherent in our present ways of living, unaware of our biases ... or we'd drop them, eh?

At the same time, am I not responsible for the things I do which hurt others, or other species, or etc.? Truly? Am I at least responsible for my willful blindness, for resolutely not knowing things which I might have known? Of course I am.

As were our forbears. The struggle comes in trying to sort what one could have known, and what one couldn't.

[Osborne Russell]

At the same time, am I not responsible for the things I do which hurt others, or other species, or etc.? Truly? Am I at least responsible for my willful blindness, for resolutely not knowing things which I might have known? Of course I am.

OK, but, if anything, it's the resoluteness that's to blame -- as if! that were the issue. Once you are done thoroughly complaining of the resoluteness, what's next? Jesus him F ing self could not foretell, much less counsel against it. What would Jesus -- oh yeah, I dare say -- say about John Muir? That he said "Sambo?" GTGFOOH. He would say, gratitude for the creation, right on, the Sambo is trivial.

This historiography, this presentism, is anti-Chirst, anti-Christian, and whole lot more. I can see it plainly and I'm not even a F ing Christian. Was he not speaking of that whcih transcends the times?

[TomF]

He was talking about cultivating compassion, cultivating gratitude, cultivating awareness. Which are, frankly, synonyms. Part of that is embracing the truth of one's own limitations - of perspective, of context, etc. The whole 1st Commandment gig isn't "Bow down before the Awful Omnipotent God, you worm", but "Embrace the fact that you're not God, and don't/can't have an omniscient perspective on stuff."

It's sh#tty, but I recognize that had I lived in the UK during the time of Peak British Empire, I'd have probably been a jingoistic imperialist. If I'd lived in Germany during WW2, I'd have probably fought in my country's (Nazi) army. I'd really, really like to believe that I'd have been among the insanely brave and clear-eyed, but the odds aren't on it. I'd have most likely been a prisoner of my context, like the vast majority of people across history and cultures. Harboring doubts and misgivings, but probably making more or less comfortable accommodations with them so to not put my family's lives at risk.

That's what I'm afraid is probably my starting place. And I suspect it's true because I observe how I've lived the life I'm in right now - feeling real concern about the environment, for instance, but still driving a car, still not routinely humping reusable bags to every shopping excursion, etc. Preferring to live in the beauty of a house built in 1841 or so to one with a whoppingly reduced carbon footprint. Etc. I have recognized various social ills around me and across the globe, and genuinely done some measurable things to address bits thereof ... but less than some people I know. Partly because I like the comfort I have, which is rather sh#tty to acknowledge.

So in that context, am I responsible for such choices in favor of my own ease, whether the ones I'm reluctantly aware that I make at others' expense, or the ones I've not put myself in a position to become aware of? Sure. Am I somehow evil for this? No - but the flip side of that isn't that I'm somehow saintly. I'm ordinary, so far as our species goes.

As, I think, are most of us. With some instances and sectors of our lives in which we rise well above the ordinary, one hopes, and gradually shoves the species' ability to develop and practice compassion forwards.

[Osborne Russell]

He was talking about cultivating compassion, cultivating gratitude, cultivating awareness. Which are, frankly, synonyms.

Quote, John Muir., of Scottish descent . . Dunbar . . if you insist, like unto the USA, like into Canada.

No? Then FO. You got a reason to say different, say it. Say it, God damn you, say it, or STFU, you don't understand a GD thing, Fing wokers, FO. Do you know what's at stake? You point out the fleck of dust on the champion's battle vest, F you. What do you think is at stake?

Don't be frivoluos.

[Osborne Russell]

He was talking about cultivating compassion, cultivating gratitude, cultivating awareness. Which are, frankly, synonyms.

Doesn't mean S to a tree.

Don't cut me. You agonize over what the tree means. What it means to you. That's where you go wrong. It's so simple.

Ian and Sylvia were right on . . . then . . . further.

Redwoods talk to me
Say it plainly
The human game
Doesn't mean S to a tree.

[TomF]

I'm bewildered Osborne. How have I so angered you?

I intended my first comment on this thread tangent actually to agree with what I thought you were saying about most of us being the prisoners of our own contexts.

Like you, I celebrate people who weren't, and who anticipated and led a growth of our subsequent collective understanding. I'm just acknowledging that the odds are that I'd probably have been within the ordinary range of people in any society, rather than a genius on a leading edge. As is true for most of us across history.

[Osborne Russell]

I'm bewildered Osborne. How have I so angered you?

You haven't angered me at all, brother. I was angry already, plenty. NOTHING . . . TO DO . . . WITH YOU. I DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU, THIS COMES FROM BEFORE; FROM A LONG LIFE

People say . . why? Wherefore? And i endeavor to explain. In that processs, I don't get angry, NOT AT YOU. I already was. Take it from me.

I don't know that anyone's listening, and so, it doesn't go away. On the contrary. The only reason I address you. Because . . you are the one, for better or worse. I reach out.

Put this on and turn it way the F up loud, if you would know me:

[Osborne Russell]

Go then
take a sister by her hand
Lead her far from this
foreign land

[TomF]

Well, I get that. I get the despair about the lost natural world, for sure. I think about the ways of life which, as little as 200 years ago, characterized most of North America. Were I of First Nations heritage, how would I not be ... well, "angry" is such a minimalist word ... when reflecting on a human heritage which isn't just lost, but which frankly cannot be rebuilt or reclaimed. Because every system on which it was based doesn't exist anymore, and won't ever. Which dwarfs the (still immeasurable) loss of the human heritage.

There are islands, like some of our parks, or some bits of privately held land. But they're like little museums providing a diorama of some recreated aspects of what used to be.

That's not what this thread was about - I'd started it to reflect on a few eye-opening (to me) realizations about the leadup to WW2. Is that a parochial, anthropocentric reflection on something far less important than the loss of the wild? Perhaps.

[Too Little Time]

It's sh#tty, but I recognize that had I lived in the UK during the time of Peak British Empire, I'd have probably been a jingoistic imperialist. If I'd lived in Germany during WW2, I'd have probably fought in my country's (Nazi) army. I'd have most likely been a prisoner of my context, like the vast majority of people across history and cultures. Harboring doubts and misgivings, but probably making more or less comfortable accommodations with them so to not put my family's lives at risk.

I see too many people who view the Democrats as the lesser of two evils. And they make the choice to support evil. But the big danger are those who do not view the Democrats in that way.

[Dave Hadfield]

Tom F, there is no Hitler. Just a bunch of morons looking for one.

Big difference.

Hitler was one of the greatest orators the world has ever known. Total wild-card. Unforeseeable.

Like Napoleon -- but the junk-yard dog version.

Also analogous to "The Mule" in the Foundation series. Fluke. One-off. Non-Predictable.

Seldon-Disturber.

[TomF]

I see too many people who view the Democrats as the lesser of two evils. And they make the choice to support evil. But the big danger are those who do not view the Democrats in that way.

Perhaps state your unstated conclusion?

[Canoeyawl]

I see too many people who view the Democrats as the lesser of two evils. And they make the choice to support evil. But the big danger are those who do not view the Democrats in that way.

Perhaps state your unstated conclusion?

'Democrats are Nazis'

[sandtown]

I see too many people who view the Democrats as the lesser of two evils. And they make the choice to support evil. But the big danger are those who do not view the Democrats in that way.

Why are we evil ??

[Osborne Russell]

Well, I get that. I get the despair about the lost natural world, for sure. I think about the ways of life which, as little as 200 years ago, characterized most of North America. Were I of First Nations heritage, how would I not be ... well, "angry" is such a minimalist word ... when reflecting on a human heritage which isn't just lost, but which frankly cannot be rebuilt or reclaimed. Because every system on which it was based doesn't exist anymore, and won't ever. Which dwarfs the (still immeasurable) loss of the human heritage.

There are islands, like some of our parks, or some bits of privately held land. But they're like little museums providing a diorama of some recreated aspects of what used to be.

That's not what this thread was about - I'd started it to reflect on a few eye-opening (to me) realizations about the leadup to WW2. Is that a parochial, anthropocentric reflection on something far less important than the loss of the wild? Perhaps.

Not at all. Environmental protection requires the force of government. Governments have a way of finding other things to busy themselves with.

[TomF]

My point is that environmental protection now is mostly trivial, from the perspective of the bison, or the countless species which lived in the vast ecosystems their tens of millions of hoofs and mouths over tens of thousands of years created. That ecosystem will never come again, and even parks of millions of acres will never be more than limping facsimiles. Postcards.

Were I a person of First Nations blood, my rage at the theft of my future and my history, and that of my ancestors and descendants, would be close to absolute.

[Too Little Time]

Perhaps state your unstated conclusion?

Why are we evil ??

Abortion: Democrats had the ability to vote on protective legislation. They decided to postpone that until after the election. The election that they were expect to lose control in.
Debt ceiling: Democrats had the ability to vote one the debt ceiling. Again, they decided to wait until they lost control.

I made comments about Social Security inequality. About the unfairness of ACA premiums.

Those are the people Democrats elect. (Elected) Democrats are too far to the right to not be evil. (Evil is not my choice of word, but it is used in the common phrase.)

[TomF]

So in a two party system, who do you vote for? The "greater evil"?

[Osborne Russell]

My point is that environmental protection now is mostly trivial, from the perspective of the bison, or the countless species which lived in the vast ecosystems their tens of millions of hoofs and mouths over tens of thousands of years created. That ecosystem will never come again, and even parks of millions of acres will never be more than limping facsimiles. Postcards.

Were I a person of First Nations blood, my rage at the theft of my future and my history, and that of my ancestors and descendants, would be close to absolute.

Oh yeah. It's bad enough being white.

People will say, The Natives fought each other fiercely, which is true, implying that there was no unifying moral value common to them, which is false. They had the attitude of gratitude.

[Too Little Time]

So in a two party system, who do you vote for? The "greater evil"?

I would say "I await the revolution", but the right has taken that position.

I don't feel obligated to endorse an election by voting for either evil.

[sandtown]

Abortion: Democrats had the ability to vote on protective legislation. They decided to postpone that until after the election. The election that they were expect to lose control in.
Debt ceiling: Democrats had the ability to vote one the debt ceiling. Again, they decided to wait until they lost control.

I made comments about Social Security inequality. About the unfairness of ACA premiums.

Those are the people Democrats elect. (Elected) Democrats are too far to the right to not be evil. (Evil is not my choice of word, but it is used in the common phrase.)

So you are to the left of the Dems ??

What kinda rubes do you take us for ??

[Splodge]

Man. threads on this forum sure do get bent out of shape. Nazi's anybody

[Johan R]

Man. threads on this forum sure do get bent out of shape. Nazi's anybody

If you do not pick a side, one will be chosen for you, said some nobody.

Moderator has retired it seems, so it is fair game to call people you know nothing about Nazis, Russian propagandists or Communists.

And the majority have no problem with this. What will they do when it all goes poof?