Lebanon is a totally corrupted country

[skuthorp]

with an effectively totally corrupt government
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/25/...suspects-freed

I don't need to expand that statement, there are plenty of links.

[lupussonic]

So is the UK, USA, all of Africa, Australia, Russia and Europe.

But that blast was so big, and had so much international attention I am surprised a speedy impartial trial has not taken place yet.

[skuthorp]

The 'government' has just arrested the judge who was prosecutuing the case.
More whataboutism Lupussonic?

[lupussonic]

Your thread title is pointed at a whole country, not just those involved with the prosecution. It is insulting to people from Lebanon as you paint them with that brush.

No whataboutism involved.

And my name is Martin.

[skuthorp]

How about if I add 'effectively', does that assuage your sensibilities?
..

[lupussonic]

A better thread title would be 'Corruption in the Lebanon Blast case'. Like CNN, the BBC, FRance 24 and Al Jazeera.

[skuthorp]

That case is just a specific, the prosecuting judge had arrested half the administration and so the justice system was overthrown by the chief prosecutor. The lebanese government has been crininalfor a very long time.
But then there are few guiding lights in that region, Israel is going in the same direction, or so it sems to me.

[Durnik]

the diff, Jeff, is judges in the U.S. (et al, see Martin's partial list) know better than to arrest the privileged guilty.

[Dave Gray]

Judges in the US don’t arrest.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I have a friend who has a vineyard in the Bekaa valley. He regularly invites me for a visit but I haven’t taken up his offer yet. It’s really good stuff.

Here you are:

https://www.wine-searcher.com/regions-bekaa+valley

[Peerie Maa]

That case is just a specific, the prosecuting judge had arrested half the administration and so the justice system was overthrown by the chief prosecutor. The lebanese government has been crininalfor a very long time.
But then there are few guiding lights in that region, Israel is going in the same direction, or so it sems to me.

the diff, Jeff, is judges in the U.S. (et al, see Martin's partial list) know better than to arrest the privileged guilty.

Judges in the US don’t arrest.

Echoes of the French system (although theirs does not smell of corruption), where the criminal investigation is carried out by a judge, with the assistance of the police.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

It is the French system; Lebanon was under French colonial administration. On the plus side, it helped with the quality of the wine.

[Peerie Maa]

It is the French system; Lebanon was under French colonial administration. On the plus side, it helped with the quality of the wine.

There you go, then. Do I win the coconut?

[Dave Gray]

Italian system as well

[Peerie Maa]

Italian system as well

According to Wiki, derived from ancient Roman law.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

There you go, then. Do I win the coconut?

Half the coconut. The reason for the take over of the government by criminals lies in the odd structure of the Lebanese state, which we all thought was wonderful when I was a boy, growing up with Lebanese, Palestinian and Egyptian friends.

Lebanon has been and is a democracy but a rather special case of a democracy; one in which, as in Norn Iron under the Good Friday Agreement, power is shared between two religious groups. In Lebanon it’s Christians and Muslims. There was a nice constitutional arrangement under which jobs were shared out to each lot.

At risk of upsetting everyone, I think everyone is to blame for the mess. The Christians came to see themselves as an endangered minority surrounded by Muslims and the well known state to the south of them was very willing to help them. At the same time the Muslims, seeing this, were happy to accept help from their neighbours to the east and the north. Both sides started to take steps to secure their position.

Very gradually, the system stopped working and criminality became the way to get it to work. My British parents stopped seeing Lebanon as the ideal place for a family holiday* and started to choose Malta instead. They were not alone. The banking system started to run down and Lebanon slowly ceased to be the financial centre of the Middle East.

And then there was the Civil War…

*Skiing in the morning; water skiing in the afternoon, great shopping, fine hotels, good food; what’s not to like?

[Peerie Maa]

Not to mention a bureaucracy with shoulders like greasy coke bottles and more inertia than a very massive thing.

Then the docks exploded.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Not to mention a bureaucracy with shoulders like greasy coke bottles and more inertia than a very massive thing.

Then the docks exploded.

That’s an effect, not a cause.

Let’s just remember that the firefighters killed in the explosion, who were trying to fight the fire in the knowledge that they faced almost certain death, were men and women, Christians and Muslims.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/galler...e-deadly-blast

Lebanon is a case study in how a nation of basically good people, with a long history of tolerance, with an established representative democracy, and with a very high educational standard, can be destroyed in half a century once politicians stop trusting each other and working together, but choose to whip up their “base” instead.

This lesson is of general application.

Particularly to the United States of America.

[Durnik]

Judges in the US don’t arrest.

phrase it any way you wish.. our legal systems do not attack the privileged guilty, cheney & kissinger (ntm, 45) walking free as evidence.

[Peerie Maa]

That’s an effect, not a cause.

Let’s just remember that the firefighters killed in the explosion, who were trying to fight the fire in the knowledge that they faced almost certain death, were men and women, Christians and Muslims.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/galler...e-deadly-blast

Lebanon is a case study in how a nation of basically good people, with a long history of tolerance, with an established representative democracy, and with a very high educational standard, can be destroyed in half a century once politicians stop trusting each other and working together, but choose to whip up their “base” instead.

This lesson is of general application.

Particularly to the United States of America.

The bureaucratic slope shoulders and inertia was a direct cause of the explosion.

Criminal negligence that condemned Lebanese citizens to death.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Nick, the proximate cause of the explosion was the idiotic decision to store the ammonium nitrate ashore in the port, and that was caused by bureaucratic infighting. The point that I am making, and which you are being unusually obtuse about, is that the cause of the sloping shoulders and the infighting was and is the divisions in Lebanon. The Lebanese are not inherently bad people, as you seem to want to imply.

The divisions that destroyed the ability of the Lebanese government to function can be seen in the United States.

[Peerie Maa]

Nick, the proximate cause of the explosion was the idiotic decision to store the ammonium nitrate ashore in the port, and that was caused by bureaucratic infighting. The point that I am making, and which you are being unusually obtuse about, is that the cause of the sloping shoulders and the infighting was and is the divisions in Lebanon. The Lebanese are not inherently bad people, as you seem to want to imply.

The divisions that destroyed the ability of the Lebanese government to function can be seen in the United States.

At no time have I criticized or implied a criticism of the Lebanese people.
My beef is with an office of the bureaucracy who were criminally negligent.

With the captain and his crew engaged in a lawsuit to leave Lebanon, the Rhosus was eventually unloaded in 2014. The cargo of ammonium nitrate was stored in the port’s warehouse 12, where it sat idle for six years.
During this time, then-director of Lebanese customs Shafik Merhi sent the first of several letters to an “urgent matters judge” warning of the dangers of keeping the chemical at the port and advice of future steps. He never heard back.

According to Reuters, local port authorities and customs stakeholders continued to write warning letters in 2015. While these remained unanswered, it is not known how much longer the Rhosus stayed in the port, though the ship’s former captain recently claimed it sank two or three years ago.
2016 -2017

Up to six letters were sent to authorities in the aftermath of the cargo’s discharge from the Rhosus. Of these, three are thought to have been sent between 2016 and 2017.
“In view of the serious danger of keeping these goods in the hangar in unsuitable climatic conditions, we reaffirm our request to please request the marine agency to re-export these goods immediately to preserve the safety of the port and those working in it, or to look into agreeing to sell this amount to the Lebanese Explosives Company,” reads one of the letters, which was recently seen by Al Jazeera.
According to the Guardian, the last letter further urged the judge to act quickly in light of “the danger […] of leaving these goods in the place they are, and to those working there”.
December 2019

Lebanese news website Al-Akhbar claims that a report on the threats posed by ammonium nitrate was submitted in December 2019 to a range of Lebanese Government departments, including the judiciary, the presidency, the Intelligence Directorate and the Customs Directorate.

https://www.ship-technology.com/feat...sion-timeline/
Clear warnings issued in writing, and ignored.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yes. I knew all that. I have explained why the Lebanese legal system is the mess that it is. I don’t see the point that you want to make.