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Thread: Caulking Problems

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan View Post
    That double planking is of Lignum Vitae and it is 1" thick, and was steam bent over 3" thick 1500 year old Alaskan Yellow Cedar.

    Attachment 128055
    The run of the seams suggests that only the bottom is double planked. Is that correct?
    If so, that is why your bottom is tight.
    The topsides opening on only one side suggests that it is the effect of drying out in the hot dry sun. If it were the rough launching, then both sides will have opened up to the same extent.
    Your problem is an over reliance on glue in a critical part of the boat's structure, using a technique that I expect has not been used on any other boats hull, ever.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Seems very odd to me.

    The scarphs on the outside 1" Lignum Vitae are surely not in the same place exactly as the scarphs in the 3" AYC inner planking. And it would be really very odd indeed if the plank seams in the LV are in exactly the same place as the seams in the AYC – the whole thinking behind double planking is exactly the opposite of this. 4" total thickness planking on frames 8" apart – should be bullet proof. Provided the fastenings are good, it's hard to envisage the amount of leakage posted. And the photo of the LV planking looks pretty close seamed to me.

    So I don't understand how a fairly meagre storm (30 knots of wind for 40 minutes) caused so much leakage that it overcame the pumps. Was she out for a week as #35 or several months as #1? Or are those separate occasions? I mean this is a big tough boat that should be able to withstand a whole lot more than this!

    If she doesn't leak below the waterline, but only above – then I don't see how the haul out and launch in Mexico can have done any damage.

    Not convinced ... George
    Last edited by debenriver; 01-25-2023 at 04:42 PM.
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Could you have been overcanvassed on starboard tack when pounding into those seas?/ Jim

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Would you really drive caulking into a butt that is not fastened to any frame timber, or backed by the bearding of a rebate?
    Seriously?
    it may get him out of trouble nick, id prefer to take the lining out and back all the scarfs with butt blocks , are the topsides 3 inch thick or only the bottom
    Last edited by peter radclyffe; 01-26-2023 at 03:12 PM.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The run of the seams suggests that only the bottom is double planked. Is that correct?
    If so, that is why your bottom is tight.
    The topsides opening on only one side suggests that it is the effect of drying out in the hot dry sun. If it were the rough launching, then both sides will have opened up to the same extent.
    Your problem is an over reliance on glue in a critical part of the boat's structure, using a technique that I expect has not been used on any other boats hull, ever.

    exactly ,,,,,Your problem is an over reliance on glue in a critical part of the boat's structure

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan View Post
    Someone here suggested that my boat was built with inferior construction techniques, here's a photo of her out of the water. That double planking is of Lignum Vitae and it is 1" thick, and was steam bent over 3" thick 1500 year old Alaskan Yellow Cedar. My friends, this is NOT an ordinary yacht, everything about her is extraordinary and totally unique. Including her sold Cocobolo interior.

    Attachment 128055
    Quote Originally Posted by peter radclyffe View Post
    it may get him out of trouble nick, id prefer to take the lining out and back all the scarfs with butt blocks, this boat appears not to have been built by boatbuilders , are the topsides 3 inch thick or only the bottom
    I read the words and image together to suggest that the hull is planked with 3'' AYC, and the bottom is doubles with 1'' lignum vitae. I would worry that if she works, she may spit the caulking. So I would rather use tingles, until the buts can be repaired with scarfed in dutchmen as Ian suggested in post 23. Butt blocks would be best, but I don't think that Leviathan will do that.
    This image

    suggests that butt blocks might not be as effective as we would want.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #42
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Why would a 'master shipwright' use such an unusual way of joining the planks? Something doesnt quite add up.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    George Calkins, designer and builder of the Bartender powerboat, among others.

    "Between 1937 and 1946 George built a string of highly successful commercial fishing boats for the NW salmon and tuna fisheries. Some of these boats are still working today."

    https://bartenderboats.com/history/

    It looks to me from the interior shot that the planks were scarfed with resorcinol glue.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    I would plunge cut into the scarfs with a 3mm blade to clean the faying surface, then install splines in thickened epoxy. Use an oscillating saw, it's the easiest to control.

    I agree that for the long term replacing the scarfs with conventional ones is the way to go.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    "It looks to me from the interior shot that the planks were scarfed with resorcinol glue."

    Could those 3" thick plank scarfs also be drift fastened for added security? / Jim

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    "It looks to me from the interior shot that the planks were scarfed with resorcinol glue."

    Could those 3" thick plank scarfs also be drift fastened for added security? / Jim
    It would be good if they were, it would make a temporary fix more secure.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    I was thinking more on original install, Nick. And if so, would a proper re-caulk of the split seams and scarf joints be a satisfactory repair, assuming other factors besides drying out are not in play? / Jim

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    I was thinking more on original install, Nick. And if so, would a proper re-caulk of the split seams and scarf joints be a satisfactory repair, assuming other factors besides drying out are not in play? / Jim
    That depends on the number and size of the fastenings. The builder did intend the glue to do the work, so if there are fastenings, they may be skimpy. A poke about with feeler gauges seems to be in order.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    I thank everyone for your replies.

    The yacht is only double planked from about 8" above the waterline down. Topsides AYC planks that are about 4" wide, quite narrow I'd say. There was no leaking from the broken scarfs, the leaks came in through the open seams on that 40 minute ride. There are open seams on both port and starboard sides, but worse on the starboard. I have found one broken scarf on the port side.

    I'm now in Mexico, and there is no oakum or cotton onboard the yacht. After the haul out and rough ride, I did a temp caulking job with some cotton string, which was all I could get. It was either that or cut up an old T- shirt. After caulking with the string, I put 3M blue tape over the seams painted over it, and then sailed 200 miles south of MazatlŠn where I am now.

    If any of you guys are retired and love wooden boats, and know how to fix this problem, you're invited to come on down and help me. I don't have any tools. When i purchased the yacht I was promised a lot of tools all were stolen before I took possession. I tried to haul out in the US, but no yard would do it without insurance, which I couldn't get. So I sailed down to Ensenada. Ensenada couldn't lift the yacht, as she was too heavy for their travel lift. They had a ways at another boatyard, but it had a project for the next year. So I single-handed down the coast myself.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Leviathan; 01-25-2023 at 09:43 PM.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    ^ You should be able to buy caulking irons and a mallet on eBay. Any NATURAL fiber will do for caulking. Some people use coconut husks as that is all that they have got. Workboats use cement and linseed oil to pay the seams. Mix cement with water to a thick paste, then mix in linseed oil to a putty consistency. That will deal with the seams.
    Were the seams originally glued, or were they caulked conventionally?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Those topside seams look to me to have been given the router/tube caulking treatment. If you remove the string and tape, then provide some decent pics of your troubled area, you might secure some proper advice as to your way forward. I for one would appreciate some interior pics as well; we all love cruising boats here. / Jim

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    Those topside seams look to me to have been given the router/tube caulking treatment. If you remove the string and tape, then provide some decent pics of your troubled area, you might secure some proper advice as to your way forward. I for one would appreciate some interior pics as well; we all love cruising boats here. / Jim
    Tomorrow I will take some shots of trouble areas. For now some shots of the inside.

    Attachment 128076

    Attachment 128077

    Attachment 128078

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan View Post
    Tomorrow I will take some shots of trouble areas. For now some shots of the inside.

    Attachment 128076

    Attachment 128077

    Attachment 128078
    Unfortunately, those images don't show. Seems they didn't upload correctly.
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemsteraak View Post
    Wow, I think we need to know the history of your boat. OK, I want to know the history ;-), seriously ,it will help determine how your boat is built because it doesn't sound like typical materials or methods.

    For example, Alaskan Yellow Cedar is a wonderful wood, quite special but doesn't hold paint or glue particularly well. I'm caulking an AYC deck and using an enhanced method of cleaning the join with acetone, then a special primer, then a special Sika caulking compound. The wood is so soft I can't use a reefing hook to clean the old rubber out of the join as I'll tear the wood. My point is, I've never seen a AYC hull. I can go to a friend who had a tug with AYC planking but your boat's construction method sounds different.

    I'm not a boatbuilder but I do know a little about how they think. The first question, is your boat a bowl or a basket? Is your boat designed to flex? A lapstrake boat is flexible, a basket, designed to flex, has wood on wood joins and needs water to swell the wood for a watertight joint. If you use new methods like epoxy, you can damage it because it may not have the flexibility needed. They tell me sometimes the old ways are the best ways.

    The more information you give these guys, the better they can advise you. I can attest to the depth of knowledge the group here has, it is profound.
    somebody done told you wrong about AYC. It takes epoxy and paint very well.Many vessels are planked with it.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Unfortunately, those images don't show. Seems they didn't upload correctly.
    Or the WBF is dying a slow death from lack of maintenance.

    I had some image files 'fail to upload' as expected recently, same display as what yours generated. I checked the JPG'd files in Photoshop, re-saved then re-uploaded them without changing anything, they displayed just fine.

    More to your topic though I have to wonder who all's owned this National Treasure (Nick Cage comes to mind) given its illustrious background but evident flaws, beginning to suspect it was built as it was intended for a museum display (or a movie prop?) perhaps rather than a life on the water?

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by sp_clark View Post
    More to your topic though I have to wonder who all's owned this National Treasure (Nick Cage comes to mind) given its illustrious background but evident flaws, beginning to suspect it was built as it was intended for a museum display (or a movie prop?) perhaps rather than a life on the water?
    George Calkins, designer and builder of the Bartender powerboat, among others.

    "Between 1937 and 1946 George built a string of highly successful commercial fishing boats for the NW salmon and tuna fisheries. Some of these boats are still working today."

    https://bartenderboats.com/history/

    The boat was built by George Calkins for his personal use.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    This thread presents come cognitive dilemmas for us forumites:


    The information provided to us by the OP is listed below in rough order of importance.



    1. OP asks for help in solving problem
    2. Previously dry boat leaks water in moderate weather after drying out
    3. Leaking was life-threatening
    4. Upon returning to port multiple planking seams had opened above the water line when inspected from outside
    5. Hull construction is carvel, double-planked below water line: lignin vitae below, AYC above with full ceiling preventing inspection of inside of planks.
    6. One AWL planking scarf while slightly open on outside did not leak



    By inference, the OP is asking for help in preventing problem in future as well as fixing problem as it currently exists. Also by inference, boat is currently in the water, not leaking from BWL seams.


    Since we don’t know what the conditions of the seams were just prior to launch, we are forced to speculate on three probabilities:



    1. Are the current open seams the cause of the leaking in the circumstances we know to be true?
    2. Is it possible to open previously closed AWL seams simply by sailing in a gale using optimal seamanship and have this be the cause of the leaking?
    3. Is it possible that there are other factors that would cause a normally dry boat to leak under the circumstances we know to be true (gale force winds) from locations other than open AWL seams?



    How do we approach these three hypotheses given the pre-test probabilities?


    To test 1(above), with a pre-test probability of 0.90, the seams are closed using the normal methods of rehydration and/or repair and the hull is re-exposed to circumstances which caused it to leak originally.


    To test 2 (above) of an unknown probability to me (but I expect extremely small), one would have to expose the boat to a gale after ruling out 1 and 3.


    To test 3 (above), with a pre-test probability of 0.10 and taking into account the assumed similar seamanship in weathering gales both before and after the period of drying out, the hull is hauled and both it and the rigging are carefully examined for defects which are known to explain leaking in a gale in a previously dry boat.


    It appears to me and to the OP, I think, that the issues of plank scarfing, planking materials, glue type, construction techniques, and brickbats are less germane than testing likely hypotheses in order of likelihood, especially given the life-threatening circumstances.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    ^ You have missed one thing. The open seams were on the side exposed to hot sun for a week.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Life-threatening circumstances, seriously?? Letís wait for pics before jumping to conclusions, eh? / Jim

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    are the main plank seams close fitted, without caulking, it may be the glued scarfs are the only thing wrong with this construction, it seems odd that calkins decided on these things, usually scarfs are glued but not cut like this

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by peter radclyffe View Post
    are the main plank seams close fitted, without caulking, it may be the glued scarfs are the only thing wrong with this construction, it seems odd that calkins decided on these things, usually scarfs are glued but not cut like this
    Hello Peter,

    Are you saying that my boat was never caulked? Is that possible? I cannot find any caulking in any of the open seams, I thought it may have disintegrated over time?

    It seems some people are mixing up a few facts? My 40 minute venture in the moderate seaway, was never life threatening. I retuned to the harbor because I needed to travel about 200 miles, and at the rate I was taking on water I'd likely flood the boat. As you all know it takes time for the planks to swell up, several days. I my case even longer due to the fact that the former owner painted the boat with Awl-Grip which is an epoxy based paint that literally smothers the wood. This could very well be the root cause of many of my problems?

    The former owner hated fresh air, he kept all hatches, doors, windows, and vents closed. He allowed rain water to pool and accumulate in the bilge. He didn't understand anything about anything pertaining to everything. For example he put the leads of the bilge pump float switch on BOTH the positive AND negative terminals, causing shorts and electrical fires throughout the yacht, also destroying all 8, D8 batteries. He (unfortunately) owned the yacht for 20 years before I bought her. During those 20 years the yacht was far beyond neglected, it was abused, it was punished, and it was sabotaged by a punk who used his inheritance to buy it. When he first acquired the yacht, it was initially used as a much needed penis extension, to hopefully impress his friends? Later the yacht was used as a place to squat, get stoned on meth and opioids or anything else he could get his hands on. When I got the yacht there was about 600 gallons of rain water in the engine room bilge, rusting the bottom of the almost new (700 hours) Cummins 6BT and transmission. Dog hair from his mutt were never removed from the outdoor cockpit drain, although he passed by it daily to enter the yacht. This caused water to pool there, and eventually eat a hole through the cockpit floor and flood the engine room below. The galley bilge pump was also wired incorrectly which was never pumped out for 20 years, allowing fresh water to backup under the cabin sole and rust the steel ingots that were burred far beneath the concrete floor. This caused the cabin sole to expand and finally burst through destroying the once beautiful floor!

    When the idiot first acquired the yacht, he of course needed to show it off, so, he entered the yacht in local races and regattas. With an ego that towered over his 5'2" stature, the idiot cut 2 blades off of the 4 bladed propeller. This was done "to go fast" rendering the yacht all but crippled. In the end the idiot had no possible way to line up the propeller with the rudder, as there is no brake on the drive shaft, therefore yet another exercise in extreme stupidity. But, he was smart enough to "look cool" by putting baggy wrinkles up in the rigging, causing a lot of windage drag to slow himself down. But, I suppose he looked cool going slow in the race? In his quest to win a race, which he never did. The idiot then overtightened the rig to a grotesque degree, he treated this classic yacht as though it were a steel racing boat. You'd think that after the race over he'd be smart enough slacken the rig? Nope! You could have played a violin on the rig for 20 years, until I bought the boat. Consequences of that? Total destruction of the rig! I had to remove the main mast at a cost of $1900 in Ensenada, as it WAS life threating. The main mast was totally rotten from the extreme overtightening, the foremast is not far behind. Lucky the mast wasn't driven through the bottom of the yacht, it was that bad.

    The idiot promised to leave me will all his tools onboard after purchase, but everything was either stolen or taken by others as he told his friends the yacht had been sold. There wasn't even a plastic fork onboard when I took possession of the yacht, although left behind was a library of "how to do books". How to fake mental illness and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, from his 6 week gig in Vietnam 50 years ago, how to suck money out of the Government. I guess mama's money finally ran out, certainly none was ever spent on boat maintenance. Enough said, now you know 2% of the problems.

    I couldn't haul out in California, because you can no longer get insurance on a wooden boat, can't haul out without insurance. Couldn't replace the propeller without hauling out, couldn't go North without a proper propeller. Had to go south, couldn't haul out in Ensenada, too big for their travel lift. Couldn't find suitable wood in Mexico to replace main mast. Not allowed to work on your boat in Ensenada marinas. Forbidden to anchor in Ensenada, So, I had to sail South with NO propeller, NO main mast, NO auto-pilot, just a jury rig with a rope backstay, single-handed on an untested 88' gaff rigged schooner to central mainland Mexico only to find zero respect, knowledge, and or interest for a wooden yacht.

    A final laugh, when I was in the shipyard in MazatlŠn, the owner of the yard was on the deck of my yacht. He got my attention, "LOOK he said, SO BEAUTIFUL, SO BEAUTIFUL!!" as he pointed to a 5 year old Lagoon catamaran in all it's plastic and veneer glory. ha ha. Cheers

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    We do have photos of the boat on the forum, in a thread from when she was last worked on. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...uot-Tiama-quot
    At that time she was "refasten as needed", maybe today she needs some more.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Yea the former owners sound like dolts.
    But you are the one who cannot get insurance/get hauled/is stuck in Mexico(further down wind from where you started)with a weird , leaky , 30 ton, 60 year old old boat.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    well you can lightly caulk where its needed,even pushing cotton in by hand on cracks, then stopping over,
    another method of construction was to rout a small half round seam in the top edge of each hull plank and lay a line of cotton there ,then force the plank above down onto it, i dont know how this boat was built, but close seamed without cotton was used for some boats

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Caulking Problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    We do have photos of the boat on the forum, in a thread from when she was last worked on. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...uot-Tiama-quot
    At that time she was "refasten as needed", maybe today she needs some more.
    Beautiful... thanks for the link.

    From 2009 that? Above the waterline it was white back then. Sometime in between painted grey? Bad choice....

    Who's your Sancho Panza, Leviathan?

    You're gonna need help with this.
    Last edited by sp_clark; 01-26-2023 at 10:21 PM.

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