GOP fear of transgendered people knows no bounds

[CWSmith]

I just had to laugh when I read this. What are these people afraid of?

I suppose you can say this is just 1 person, but it's one Republican floating on a sea of this nonsense.

North Dakota Republican floats fining transgender people $1,500 if they use 'wrong' pronouns

The North Dakota House of Representatives has introduced a bill that would strictly prohibit expanded use of pronouns outside of the gender that the person was born.

House Bill 2199 restricts the definition of gender to the person's natural gender at birth and then requires that all pronoun use be reflective of that same gender. Any violation by anyone who works at an institution that receives state funding, including public schools would be subject to a $1,500 fine.

If gender is challenged, the bill puts the responsibility on the individual to prove their gender.

“Say, they’re a boy, but they come to school and say they’re a girl. As far as that school is concerned in this bill, that person is still a boy. If it becomes contested, the burden will be on the girl, the so-called girl, or the boy, to prove that he is a girl,” said North Dakota State Senator David Clemens while speaking in favor of the bill.

The bill's sponsor was the only testimony given in support of the bill, as nearly 100 separate forms of testimony was provided against the bill. Even the state's Senate Judiciary Committee voted to not pass the proposed bill.

"I see no way this law would pass any sort of legal challenge based on basic legal construction principles," North Dakota Human Rights' Christina Sambor said in an interview with KFYR-TV of Bismarck. "It is vague, fails to advance any legitimate state interests, and not only would cause impermissible, gender-based discrimination, its very purpose is gender-based discrimination."

The bill now moves to the Senate floor.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/no...3595d5d48938ad

[Peerie Maa]

There were enough morons out there to elect him

[David W Pratt]

English teachers have been trying for centuries to get us to use pronouns that agree in number and gender with the noun they are replacing, without success.
I wish him luck.

[Joe (SoCal)]

I will say it’s gotten a bit ridiculous. My buddy has just taken a part time position as a faculty teacher at a local Art & Design University and had to go through a pronoun sensitivity training. He must be sensitive and ask each student how they identify and prefer to be recognized.

It limits the educational experience because you have to first be conscious of each students pronouns, while at the same time engaging and encouraging criticism, understanding and debate.

It compounds the educational experience because it is now focused on the proper pronoun and not the lesson. The pitfalls to open dialog and collaboration is severely limited.

Honestly I think the pendulum has swung way too far into appeasing a small minority of people that feel gender identity is more important than almost anything else.

[Peerie Maa]

I will say it’s gotten a bit ridiculous. My buddy has just taken a part time position as a faculty teacher at a local Art & Design University and had to go through a pronoun sensitivity training. He must be sensitive and ask each student how they identify and prefer to be recognized.

It limits the educational experience because you have to first be conscious of each students pronouns, while at the same time engaging and encouraging criticism, understanding and debate.

Does your mate not have to learn their names and link them to faces?
Mr Jones, Miss Smith, Mrs Tomas, Ms Arbuthnot, Mr Cholmondley, Miss Davies, and so on. What is the problem?

[Joe (SoCal)]

Does your mate not have to learn their names?
Mr Jones, Miss Smith, Mrs Tomas, Ms Arbuthnot, Mr Cholmondley, Miss Davies, and so on. What is the problem?

It’s incredibly more nuanced than that that.

Think about a critique you have all the students work on the wall and you are soliciting opinions from fellow classmates and you accidentally refer to one of the art pieces as “Hers / His” and not “Them or Theirs” you can find yourself in the dean’s office explaining your insensitivity.

Additionally you are responsible for how each student refers to other students preferred pronouns or once again you can find yourself in the dean’s office explaining your insensitivity.

[Garret]

It's gone over the top. A young woman I know got asked to leave a summer camp because she accidentally referred to another camper as her instead of them.

To go to a slightly different topic - a friend worked @ IBM for many years. He's about as non-racist & non-judgemental as they come, but when he went to the required sensitivity seminar he got in real trouble (as in almost lost his job after 20+ years) because he said "I don't care if a person is black, brown or purple, whether they're gay or straight, as none of that is any of my business - all I care is whether or not they do their job".

[wizbang 13]

When a child, My Dad forbid me to refer to Mom or my four sisters as “she” or “her”. He taught me to always call them by name or of course Mom.
I must admit, I can’t understand or keep up with or even grok this new thing .
these people !

[elf]

Call them by their first names, Joe.

[Joe (SoCal)]

When a child, My Dad forbid me to refer to Mom or my four sisters as “she” or “her”. He taught me to always call them by name or of course Mom.
I must admit, I can’t understand or keep up with or even grok this new thing .
these people !

3 classes of 50 students a day for 4 semesters referring to 45 students by their proper pronouns while also preventing other student from making the same fatal mistake. Additionally the trap of asking other student to critique the gender non specific work and make sure that EVERYONE makes no mistakes or it’s your responsibility.

“So Tommy what do you think of “their” work?
Tommy “ Well I think “She” didn’t follow the assignment”
Tommy you and I need to report to the administration’s gender identity insensitivity training.

[Breakaway]

^ this

I agree that we should strive to accommodate people.

But the people being accommodated have to be realistic. We have been using pronouns in the now wrong way for generations. People cant just fold their arms, blink like Jeannie, and be changed

Its gonna take time.

Kevin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[CWSmith]

It’s incredibly more nuanced than that that.

Think about a critique you have all the students work on the wall and you are soliciting opinions from fellow classmates and you accidentally refer to one of the art pieces as “Hers / His” and not “Them or Theirs” you can find yourself in the dean’s office explaining your insensitivity.

Additionally you are responsible for how each student refers to other students preferred pronouns or once again you can find yourself in the dean’s office explaining your insensitivity.

I had a male student that I worked with for several years and then "he" transitioned and became "she". That's fine, but the male pronoun was wired into my brain and it took a while (rather a long while) to reprogram my head. She understood. Her skin isn't that thin.

That's part of the problem. If a person presents themselves in an ambiguous manner such as nonbinary, isn't it reasonable to expect that people will require a little time to memorize things? Then there are students who are offended by any gender reference and want ALL pronouns to be nonspecific as in "they". Okay, but while I can do that for them, I won't do it for others who might be offended by that ambiguity.

A little patience goes a long way.

[Peerie Maa]

Additionally you are responsible for how each student refers to other students preferred pronouns or once again you can find yourself in the dean’s office explaining your insensitivity.

Even if it happens away from your class?
P.S. what age students are we discussing here? Pre-teen children, teenagers, college students?

[McMike]

I make a clear effort to default to "they/them" when I don't know. I have a hard enough time remembering names, I'm not, and should not be expected to be more precise for anyone past my most important people.

[ShorelineJohn]

North Dakota State Senator David Clemens attended at the North Dakota State University, where he earned his Bachelor of Science degree based on Industrial engineering.

[Joe (SoCal)]

Even if it happens away from your class?
P.S. what age students are we discussing here? Pre-teen children, teenagers, college students?

College students, keep in mind they are HIGHLY sensitive an attuned to any pronoun errors made at ANY time.

[john welsford]

Clip. "I had a male student that I worked with for several years and then "he" transitioned and became "she". That's fine, but the male pronoun was wired into my brain and it took a while (rather a long while) to reprogram my head. She understood. Her skin isn't that thin."

I've a transgender cousin, now "she". It took a little while for everyone to change their habits of address and reference, but after one incident when the perpetrator was very apologetic she just shrugged her shoulders and said "you can call me whatever you like as long as its not late for dinner". Grinned and wandered off.

The family and all the friends eventually got it right, she's a sweetie and much happier than before, and it shows in her relationships with those around her.

John Welsford

[Paul Pless]

keep in mind they are HIGHLY sensitive an attuned to any pronoun errors made at ANY time.

they sound like certain woodenboat forum pendant trolls i have known

[George Jung]

pedant? or swinging?

[George Jung]

I've a fair number of such folks in my practice - and I 'do my best' to accomodate - but yeah, hardwired I am. And for the most part 'they' don't care - what I say isn't meant in any sort of mean fashion. They also recognize my age, and where I came from. For others, and for whatever reason, it might be a problem, perhaps even an agenda. They can't really complain about me (though a few have) - I'm the owner; and when they talk to the administrator, he explains that. They are certainly welcome to see someone else. Encouraged to, in fact. In such a situation, I'm no happier to continue the relationship, than are they.

[Paul Pless]

pedant? or swinging?

hush, i'm trolling right now

[George Jung]

[skuthorp]

first world problem……...

[Peerie Maa]

College students, keep in mind they are HIGHLY sensitive an attuned to any pronoun errors made at ANY time.

There seems to be a fair amount of info and advice to college staff on the UK web. But it is not a hot button issue over here. Possibly because we enacted The Equality Act 2010, so the thinking and processes are probably well bedded in. It is certainly not getting much traction in the media, apart from where some students protest against some speaker's opinions. Those students should remember what Further Education is for. From one discussion piece:

The Education Reform Act 1988 describes the need "to ensure that academic staff have freedom within the law to question and test received wisdom, and to put forward new ideas and controversial or unpopular opinions, without placing themselves in jeopardy of losing their jobs or privileges they may have at their institutions". Most UK university statutes contain a similar clause.
As you read the excerpts below, I encourage you to ask yourself certain questions.
Irrespective of the good intentions behind them, are the clauses below, taken from current official policies in UK Universities, compatible with Universities' stated commitments to academic freedom?
Do they move beyond standard HR Equality procedures into unacceptable attempts to control the speech and thought of academics and students?

One piece of advice from one website echoes my thinking:

Keep up-to-date seating plans and registers for cover staff with preferred pronouns* and names.

https://neu.org.uk/advice/supporting...oning-students

[hawkeye54]

Can the 'Texas / Georgia / Louisiana ' sweet-tea fueled " Y'All" serve as a safe generic covering pronoun (?)





Rick

[AlanMc]

glad to see some of you finding this stuff ridiculous.

the proposal in the OP is absurd, but so is the idea of making it a "hate crime" to misgender/use wrong pronouns. you can't police speech.

[John Smith]

glad to see some of you finding this stuff ridiculous.

the proposal in the OP is absurd, but so is the idea of making it a "hate crime" to misgender/use wrong pronouns. you can't police speech.

Some speech, but I'd say not this speech.

Overall I'm saddened by so many people being unable to accept what others go through.

[hawkeye54]

John, post # 25 was intended as a serious question - at work, I dealt with a Marine veteran, whose child ( approximately 10 years old was dressed in gender neutral clothing and had long flowing wavy hair ) both of them were facing away from me, and I 'almost' referred to her son as her daughter.




Rick

[elf]

I changed my first name in 1977. I had one friend, now deceased, who never made the change.

[Peerie Maa]

the proposal in the OP is absurd, but so is the idea of making it a "hate crime" to misgender/use wrong pronouns. you can't police speech.

Yes, we can and do.
From the Crown Prosecution Service

[birlinn]

I don't think any of those were for using the wrong pronoun, Nick.

[CWSmith]

^ #30

You know, there are degrees. Calling a woman by a male pronoun is not the same as using "the N-word".

Where I grew up, the girls called themselves "you guys" as in "Where are you guys going?" That was the mid-60s. Sometimes they called themselves "burls" because they were girls into sports before that was as big as it is now.

Now, calling a student a "girl" instead of a "woman" is considered offensive. I remember 40 years ago a bull**** "friend" got pissed when I referred to a teenager as a "girl".

We need to get some perspective on this and not go nuts over nothing. There is real prejudice in the world, but getting ticked off over every little error becomes a bad habit that leads nowhere.

[Peerie Maa]

^ #30

You know, there are degrees. Calling a woman by a male pronoun is not the same as using "the N-word".

Where I grew up, the girls called themselves "you guys" as in "Where are you guys going?" That was the mid-60s. Sometimes they called themselves "burls" because they were girls into sports before that was as big as it is now.

Now, calling a student a "girl" instead of a "woman" is considered offensive. I remember 40 years ago a bull**** "friend" got pissed when I referred to a teenager as a "girl".

We need to get some perspective on this and not go nuts over nothing. There is real prejudice in the world, but getting ticked off over every little error becomes a bad habit that leads nowhere.

Under employment law in the UK, and this will apply to schools and colleges/universities, the way that it works is thus:
If an employee gives offense, the offended person complains, or corrects the person giving offense.
Then if the person repeats the offense, having been counselled that it was offensive, HR invokes a disciplinary procedure, as it is then judged to be deliberate.
The way the law is set up is that the offended person decides what is offensive or bullying behavior. If they say it is, then it is.

[CWSmith]

The way the law is set up is that the offended person decides what is offensive or bullying behavior. If they say it is, then it is.

Surely you see the problem with this, right?

"...and don't call me Shirley." I never thought that quote would be relevant until now.

[CWSmith]

I have threatened at work that if I am required to write (he/him) after my name, then I will declare myself to be a toaster.

This is actually not a silly issue. For my generation, as a teenager growing up being called "queer" was the worst insult you could give someone, male or female. Now if I need to identify that I am male, I am still just a little offended because I remember my childhood. Do I have a right to be offended, or do only certain protected classes of individuals have that right?