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Thread: The Uighur genocide

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    Default The Uighur genocide

    Of all forms of denialism, the most odious has to be genocide denial. Particularly when it is still ongoing:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide

    The Chinese government has committed a series of ongoing human rights abuses against Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang that is often characterized as genocide. Since 2014, the Chinese government, under the administration of Chinese Communist Party (CCP) General SecretaryXi Jinping, has pursued policies that incarcerated more than an estimated one million Turkic Muslims in internment camps without any legal process.[3][4][5]



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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Of all forms of denialism, the most odious has to be genocide denial. Particularly when it is still ongoing:

    Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples_in_Brazil

    ftfy
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    We can talk about that too. I suspect I am closer to the action than anyone else in the Bilge. The past four years have been terrible. Still, orders of magnitude below what is going on with the Uighurs.

    But I suspect you don't want to discuss the indigenous genocide in Brazil. You just want to not discuss the Uighur genocide in China. I understood you didn't want that on your thread, but didn't feel like giving a genocide denialist a pass, so I started this one.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    George., I don’t know what is going on in either place.

    I strongly suspect brutal repression in Xinjiang, but the bit that troubles me is the casual way in which almost every instance of brutal repression of a race or ethnic or language group is labelled “genocide”.

    I notice that my old Hong Kong friend, the British/Sri Lankan journalist Nury Vittachi, has picked up a case where two extremely well known HK celebrities had their mug shots included in batches of “Uighur victims” published by western news organisations that ought to have been much more careful.
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    We can talk about that too. I suspect I am closer to the action than anyone else in the Bilge. The past four years have been terrible. Still, orders of magnitude below what is going on with the Uighurs.

    But I suspect you don't want to discuss the indigenous genocide in Brazil. You just want to not discuss the Uighur genocide in China. I understood you didn't want that on your thread, but didn't feel like giving a genocide denialist a pass, so I started this one.
    Perhaps ACB suspects that you are trolling Mr Davies?
    That is certainly what I thought when I saw the thread.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I strongly suspect brutal repression in Xinjiang, but the bit that troubles me is the casual way in which almost every instance of brutal repression of a race or ethnic or language group is labelled “genocide”.
    We could certainly discuss the bar for qualifying as genocide. I am not wedded to the term, although it seems to be in common usage.

    The thing is that there are very credible reports of up to a million people being put into internment camps for the mere fact of being ethnic Uighurs, of Uighur culture. The optics certainly point to something not unlike what the Nazis did.

    PS: one case of a poorly executed photoshop doesn't discredit the story. I could find similar instances involving the January 6 riots, or the January 8 riots here in Brazil. That doesn't mean the riots didn't happen.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Here is the story of a real inmate of the camps for you:

    https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyg...019163427.html

    A Uyghur inmate in a photograph of scores of men sitting in an internment camp in China’s Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (XUAR) has been identified as a driver for a cement factory named Mettursun Eziz, according to former acquaintance.

    The new information brings to six the number of people identified in photos, originally posted to the WeChat account of the Xinjiang Judicial Administration, showing Uyghur detainees listening to a “de-radicalization” speech at a camp in the seat of Hotan (in Chinese, Hetian) prefecture's Lop (Luopu) county in April 2017.

    Eziz—a 35-year-old father of four who has worked as a driver for a cement factory in Lop township for nearly 10 years—was recognized by a friend from the area who now lives in exile in Turkey, and who spoke to RFA’s Uyghur on condition of anonymity, fearing reprisals by authorities against family members who still live in the XUAR.

    According to the source, Eziz was taken into custody “in early 2017” for “giving a lift to a neighbor to see their son in prison” and his family was initially informed that he would be held at an internment camp for only 15 days.

    In the more than two-and-a-half years that Eziz has been detained, the source said, his family members have been denied visits with him at the Kaifaqu Camp, located in the Beijing Industrial Zone in front of Lop’s cement factory and No. 1 Middle School.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    And here is a map of camp locations:


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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    George., I don’t know what is going on in either place.

    I strongly suspect brutal repression in Xinjiang, but the bit that troubles me is the casual way in which almost every instance of brutal repression of a race or ethnic or language group is labelled “genocide”.
    My understanding is that there is a precise definition of "genocide" in international law:

    Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:
    1) the mental element, meaning the"intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and
    2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."
    Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.

    Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)
    "Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
    (a) Killing members of the group;
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
    And:

    Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:
    ...
    Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.
    Seems like the Uighur situation has got the camps and the forcible relocation. Since the Uighurs are Muslim, they fit the definition of a protected group:

    The law protects four groups - national, ethnical, racial or religious groups.
    A national group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by a common country of nationality or national origin.
    An ethnical group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common cultural traditions, language or heritage.
    A racial group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by physical characteristics.
    A religious group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common religious creeds, beliefs, doctrines, practices, or rituals.
    Usually people are born into these four groups. These four groups share the common characteristic that individuals are most often born into the group. While some individuals may change nationality or religion - or even adopt a new cultural, ethnic or racial identity - usually people do not choose their group identity. In genocide people are targeted for destruction not because anything they have done, but because of who they are.
    Is it really "casual" to label China's treatment of the Uighurs "genocide"?

    China has plenty of motive to deny. More than the rest of the world has to make things up, arguably.

    Tom
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    China part 1.
    Introduction.

    The other China discussion in the Bilge had some remarkable plot twists and I had doubts if I should publish this over there.
    This Uighur thread is perhaps a good place to post this, although this piece is a lot of text, I think it offers some insights in the way the China government and CPC are thinking, planning an acting.
    You can decide for yourself if it’s a coherent image.
    Because it has become a relatively long piece, I will choose to publish it in a few chunks.
    The piece is written in Dutch and then translated into English by Google translate, so you may still encounter some minor grammar and/or language errors, my apologies for that.

    My interest in China started on June 4, 1989 when the army of the People's Republic of China brutally crushed a peaceful student demonstration on Tiananmen Square. It is estimated that between 2,000 and 3,000 civilians died there.
    At the time I wondered what the Chinese government's reasons were for choosing such an aggressive approach. Since then I have followed developments in China with more than average interest.

    In the meantime I have learned that for a good interpretation of the actions of the Chinese government it is necessary to opt for a kind of “multi-dimensional” approach. The Chinese regularly do something different than what they say they do. It is therefore unwise to accept information from 1 source as the truth.
    That also applies to my own contribution here, of course, if the subject interests you, look for other sources as well.

    A possible model.
    To get a complete picture of the Chinese performance, assess for example;
    The plans that have been made and are being made
    The statements made by relevant officials
    The possible strategy underlying the action
    The actual actions that are performed
    The effects that are ultimately achieved with it

    In fact, you have to put everything you see, hear, or read into such (or similar) model and judge whether it is consistent and explicable. In general, it will turn out that it is usually correct, more about that later, but every now and then an error emerges.
    An important point of attention is that you have to take into account that China is a huge country with a very large population, which is also experiencing a very rapid economic development. So you cannot include every detail in your assessment, don’t expect to be able to judge every aspect of life there, the trick is to choose the right level of abstraction without ignoring the significant details.
    Indeed, the Chinese state and its officials, in response to criticism, tend to want to shift the focus to details that don't really matter, often in combination with aggressive treatment, concealment or ignoring of matters and remarks that we barbarians cannot and will not understand them at all.
    It is important for us as a critical reader not to get distracted.
    To use a football term; “You have to keep your eyes on the ball”.

    The "Ball".

    In order not to make the discussion too broad, I will limit myself to the statements, plans, strategies, actions and effects of president Xi Jinping and the current CPC.
    Of course, the current developments in China cannot be attributed entirely to Xi alone, his predecessors and fellow or former CPC members have also played a significant role.

    Xi Jinping took office as Secretary General of the CPC in 2012, and since 2013 he has been President of the People's Republic of China and also Commander-in-Chief of the Chinese Army.
    This friendly-looking man is in fact a very authoritarian leader, who has arranged for his term limit to expire so that he can be president for life. History teaches us that this is usually a dangerous development. The cultivated personality cult around his person does not dispel this suspicion, on the contrary.
    During his reign until now, the economy continued to grow strongly, but repression and censorship also increased sharply. China has a widespread bureaucracy and through the application of human, but also digital and artificial intelligence surveillance techniques, the population can be monitored and corrected if necessary, after all it poses a threat to stability and harmony.

    Xi's position as "emperor" of China is risky, he is always wary of instability and fellow party members seeking his position, and he fears a coup from the military side.
    So he regularly "replaces" generals and officials, often with a reference to corruption or the like, we recently saw a good example of this during the CPC congress.
    Xi has the ability to switch between the various roles quite easily, from a thoughtful and wise statesman in an international context to a tough, aggressive and combative tone as commander-in-chief and a strong steering role in controlling the CPC, his statements however, are often very carefully prepared.
    But thankfully he gets agitated every now and then, as recently during the petty squabble with Canada's Prime Minister Trudeau, when we saw a glimpse of the real Xi who, surprisingly, seemed to have some difficulty with transparency.
    Foreigners are sometimes confused by these different styles and tones of Xi’s communication.
    But when analyzed properly, they do fit within the overall strategy.
    Last edited by dutchpp; 01-13-2023 at 01:21 PM.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    China part 2.

    The CPC.

    The very large Chinese communist party, founded in 1921, with 90+ million members, has been in power since 1949.
    Remarkably, the core of the CPC consists of members from approximately 100 families. These are the families that belonged to the inner circle of former party leader and president Mao Zedong at the time.
    The CPC naturally has a large number of well-defined objectives, which can simply be found on the internet.
    But in essence, the CPC pursues only a limited number of goals.
    The most important goal is to keep the aforementioned 100 families in power.
    This is done by bringing about economic growth, exercising power over the military and governing and improving China's bureaucratic apparatus.
    China's huge population is kept under control by means of the army, the security services, their own party organization, but state propaganda plays an important role as well.

    The creation of the enormous economic growth has led to the improvement of the economic situation of many Chinese, which objectively speaking is of course a praiseworthy development. Moreover there are many new developments such as online shopping and gaming, making foreign trips, etc. etc. ., which should lead to the satisfaction of the population to keep the stability.
    However, economic growth has also strongly strengthened the position of the CPC.

    The CPC will therefore almost always prioritize domestic affairs, as actually happened during the Covid pandemic in 2020. The country was closed and, for example, it delayed adequately informing the WHO and abroad. Something similar is being done at the moment.
    The primary interest of the CPC, the preservation of power, has priority over everything and therefore also over the image abroad, which has been considerably damaged by the Covid-related and other actions in 2020-2022.
    It therefore does not hurt to test the sometimes unexpected and surprising developments in China against the above principle. Perhaps the very recent developments in China are a good test case for this, often the pieces of the puzzle seem to fall into place.

    The strategy.

    China's extensive bureaucratic produces a very large number of plans and strategies for the future. It is absolutely impossible to study them all and even give a summary of them here.
    I will therefore limit myself here to an example that can be traced directly to Xi Jinping.

    A good insight offers; “The Great Resurrection of the Chinese Nation” In this document and in the related plans, the writer on behalf of Xi Jinping paints a picture of what China should look like in 2049.
    100 years after its founding as a people's republic, China is the economically, militarily and politically dominant nation on earth.
    China must then be decisive in many areas, such as electric transport, space travel, medical innovation, and the standards for artificial intelligence and quantum computers must also have a Chinese origin.
    To this end, China naturally needs “lebensraum” and must have unlimited access to raw materials and auxiliary materials. A strong army is necessary to safeguard Chinese interests.
    Politically the model of the communist Chinese one-party state is leading.
    Within China there is of course complete harmony, with a population unconditionally loyal to the CPC. Disturbances of this harmony as at present in Tibet, India, Hong Kong, the Uyghurs, the Chinese Sea and Taiwan are then of course resolved.

    For the time being, further military expansion needs seems to be limited, but I advise neighboring countries to remain vigilant.
    Other countries are by nature subservient to the Chinese nation and should treat it with respect, criticism is punished by the usual means such as boycotts, punishments, economic sanctions, etc.
    The United Nations apparatus must support the Chinese ideas, by acquiring the chairmanship of various committees and working groups the Chinese have already worked hard to prepare the realization of this goal.
    The Chinese 1 party state model, including its repression and censorship methodologies, is at this moment already being exported to countries with dictatorial leaders, often in a package deal under the cover of “economic aid”.
    This already leads, for example, to influencing the voting behavior of these countries in the United Nations
    Miniaturized and adapted versions of China's digital surveillance systems are already operational in the cities of some African countries.


    In fact, Xi Jinping and the CPC want to create a state similar to the great Chinese empires of the Imperial Dynasties, hence the name of strategy document.
    A significant difference is that these ancient Chinese empires were guided by Confucian values and principles, while the model of the future Chinese state is unfortunately filled by the CPC according to the Machiavellian principles of power, money and repression.
    The advantage for us is that we recognize these Machiavellian principles quite easily, the image of the incomprehensible Chinese nation, an image that has been carefully constructed and used in all kinds of communication, can therefore be put aside.
    We can simply look at what is actually happening, which gives a fairly clear picture and with some practice this can be placed well in the known underlying strategies.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    China part 3.

    The visible actions.

    This is a screenshot from post #247 in the other China thread by George, which lists a number of visible actions, I will use these actions as an example.

    HR, the whole world was very keen to cooperate with China 20 years ago. Everyone would still be just as keen if China didn't keep doing things like:
    - round up Uighurs for reeducation
    - destroy coral reefs to build military bases in the open sea
    - threaten all the time to invade Taiwan, whose people do not want to be part of the PCR
    - abuse WTO rules and steal everyone's intellectual property
    - impose autocracy on Hong Kong
    - tolerate massive endangered wildlife trade because "tradition"
    - attack Indian troops in Ladakh with clubs
    - censor everything, including the Internet, and repress the people
    - try to cover up the covid epidemic during the critical early days

    etc., etc.

    Judging these actions against the principles and plans described in the earlier sections leads to the following list of explanations, where most of the actions appear to be consistent, easily explainable and fit into the aforementioned plans and strategy.

    Uighurs; limiting unrest and restoring harmony

    The construction of bases in the Chinese sea; creating “lebensraum" and securing supply lines, a means of pressure for neighboring countries, not recognizing the ruling of the international court in The Hague sends the signal that China itself does determine what is good for it, the behavior fits in with the pursuit of dominance.

    Taiwan; curbing unrest and restoring harmony, creating “lebensraum”, desire for direct access to the Pacific ocean.

    Ignoring WTO rules and theft of intellectual property; necessary for the very rapid economic growth and the rapid innovation of technology, obtained by taking advantage of the “strategic opportunities” that were offered to China, which are now slowly disappearing.

    Hong Kong; limiting unrest and restoring harmony

    Game trade: this is a bit more difficult to explain, but it fits in with the idea that everything should be at the service of China

    India: fits in with the pursuit of the new great Chinese empire, the north of India was part of it in China's opinion, a means of pressure for neighboring countries.

    Censorship and repression: maintaining order and harmony, fear of internal unrest and coups d'état

    Cover up Covid: securing the position of the CPC within China.

    The conclusions.

    Does the approach described above offer the opportunity to build a complementary picture of Chinese governmental action?

    I think so, but if you want to do it completely yourself it does take some effort. You will have to follow the news and other publications from and about China intensively. For example, I conduct a fairly extensive search of the global media every week.


    Does the approach described above show that the nation of China is the root of all evil?

    No, I don't think so, there are too many good and sensible people living in China for that. China's economic growth performance is impressive and sometimes enviable, but the huge country also needed that to fight poverty, not all the goals are “evil”.
    China simply rolls out a strategic plan, whatever we think of it in terms of content.
    In the rollout of this strategy, China has so far only been hindered to a limited extent by other nations, but that is now seriously changing. The change in attitude towards China will mean that the ideal future vision of the CPC party cadre will probably not be realized or will only be partially realized with serious difficulty.


    Is the CPC the root of all evil then?

    No, I don’t think so either, although the top management of this party is doing its best to acquire this title.
    However, I am convinced that the ever-increasing repression leads to unrest and the downfall of the CPC. At some point in time the Chinese people will take matters into their own hand, as they eventually did in earlier versions of the Chinese empire .
    I do not dare to give a time scale for this, the CPC has now been in power for a little over 70 years, on the time scale of Chinese history this is peanuts.
    Last edited by dutchpp; 01-13-2023 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    Indeed, the Chinese state and its officials, in response to criticism, tend to want to shift the focus to details that don't really matter, often in combination with aggressive treatment, concealment or ignoring of matters and remarks that we barbarians cannot and will not understand them at all.
    That sounds remarkably familiar...

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    My understanding is that there is a precise definition of "genocide" in international law:



    And:



    Seems like the Uighur situation has got the camps and the forcible relocation. Since the Uighurs are Muslim, they fit the definition of a protected group:



    Is it really "casual" to label China's treatment of the Uighurs "genocide"?

    China has plenty of motive to deny. More than the rest of the world has to make things up, arguably.

    Tom
    It looks as though they are still in denial about Tiananmen Square.
    From 3 years ago:
    Over the past 30 years, the Beijing regime activated the state machinery to erase or distort any memory of 3 and 4 June. The post-Tiananmen leadership went on to construct an official account that portrayed the movement as a western conspiracy to weaken and divide China, hence justifying its military crackdown as necessary for stability and prosperity, and paving the way for China’s rise. In 2011, China Daily, an official English-language newspaper in Beijing, headlined a story “Tiananmen massacre a myth”, claiming that “Tiananmen remains the classic example of the shallowness and bias in most western media reporting, and of governmental black information operations seeking to control those media. China is too important to be a victim of this nonsense.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ananmen-square
    and more recently
    The government has never accepted responsibility for the massacre or held any officials legally accountable for the killings. It has been unwilling to conduct an investigation into the events or release data on those who were killed, injured, forcibly disappeared, or imprisoned. Tiananmen Mothers documented the details of 202 people who were killed during the suppression of the movement in Beijing and other cities.
    https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/06/03/...anmen-massacre
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Supposed by whom?
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by HRDavies View Post
    ... "genocide" crap ... propaganda machine ...

    The reality is that the US and Australia are far more guilty of oppressing the uygurs than China. ...far worse than garbage.

    ... Australia Strategic Policy Institute ... US department of state and armaments manufacturers. ... lies, ridiculous speculation ...

    ... Janet Cooke ... Amber Heard editorial ...

    ... Iraq invasion... dumping premature babies out of their incubators ...

    ... covid was caused by jewish space lasers ... anal probes ...

    ... fabrications ... fantastical speculation...

    It's all crap.

    ... christians and moslems (and jews, too) ... Apple and Foxconn ... thank you Australia, thank you United States.

    ...
    Our resident Xibot and genocide denier, giving a master class of how this approach works:

    Indeed, the Chinese state and its officials, in response to criticism, tend to want to shift the focus to details that don't really matter, often in combination with aggressive treatment, concealment or ignoring of matters and remarks that we barbarians cannot and will not understand them at all.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I strongly suspect brutal repression in Xinjiang, but the bit that troubles me is the casual way in which almost every instance of brutal repression of a race or ethnic or language group is labelled “genocide”.
    Some accusations turn out to be unfounded. Some. Meanwhile there are several elephants in the room, cases that cannot be casually put aside.
    Long live the rights of man.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Our resident Xibot and genocide denier, giving a master class of how this approach works:
    Many assertions, few citations.

    Much what about. What about Amber Heard? What about Wounded Knee? Have you no critical thinking ability?
    Long live the rights of man.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by HRDavies View Post
    Human beings are supposed to have critical thinking abilities. We go to school for that. We are supposed to learn to test theses, check for facts, learn to discriminate between lies and truth.
    .
    This^. It helps in a debate if you post the source of the facts that you are using to support your argument.
    Stating "That is crap" does not do that.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 01-13-2023 at 01:59 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    HR's source:

    CO-WEST-PRO is a syllabic abbreviation for 'Counter Western Propaganda'. The objective of CO-WEST-PRO Consultancy isto counter the propaganda theatre ultimately directed out of the Western military-industrial-intelligence-complex whichinfiltrates, discredits and disrupts Global South countries gaining regional influence in ways that challenge Westerndominance.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    The Han Chinese have been at this for a long time with 'other' tribes. In Brazil it seems to be about money and land mostly. It happened in Sri Lanka, India. I t certainly happened in Australia and America with race and land control involved in both. It happened in Europe.
    Humans seem to be like that.

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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    I'll ignore the snark and insults, as I know that is all that you have got.
    The text of your first link falls because it contradicts WI-Tom's C&P of definitive data..
    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    My understanding is that there is a precise definition of "genocide" in international law:



    And:



    Seems like the Uighur situation has got the camps and the forcible relocation. Since the Uighurs are Muslim, they fit the definition of a protected group:



    Is it really "casual" to label China's treatment of the Uighurs "genocide"?

    China has plenty of motive to deny. More than the rest of the world has to make things up, arguably.

    Tom
    Dipping into your first link, I find the organization appears to be CCP Shills.
    ABOUT CO-WEST-PRO CONSULTANCY
    CO-WEST-PRO is a syllabic abbreviation for 'Counter Western Propaganda'. The objective of CO-WEST-PRO
    Consultancy is to counter the propaganda theatre ultimately directed out of the Western military-industrial-intelligence-complex which infiltrates, discredits and disrupts Global South countries gaining regional influence in ways that challenge Western dominance.
    An agenda much? Your second two links point to the same document, which is titled "Amnesty International & Human Rights Watch’s Forced Xinjiang Labour Claims: Junk Research or Noble Cause Corruption?" Hardly a dispassionate, balanced review!

    P.S. I am employing Critical Thinking here. Analyzing the input, and drawing conclusions from what I see.
    You should give it a try.

    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 01-13-2023 at 02:45 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Ethnic cleansing by another name?
    without freedom of speech, we wouldn't know who the idiots are.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    The Haudenosaunee wiping out the Wendat.

    I live on that ground.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    I can't believe there are so many here who would defend China's treatment of these people. Just look at the map of prison sites. How can one defend that? The stories coming out of the concentration camps are blood curdling. Mass rape, torture, disappearances, etc.... Widely reported in every major news source, pick your favorite. Slave labor is used in the camps to produce vast quantities of goods for export.

    The US stopped over 1000 shipments of solar panels at our docks, that were made in the region using slave labor, as just one example.

    It is genocide, it is not new, and I am shocked that anyone outside of China's ruling party denies it.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    HR you've been frothing on ad nauseum in defence of the Chinese government, you previously defended the regime in North Korea and asserted that we are fools to believe stories of appalling living conditions for the general population there, and you jumped down my throat for condemning Putin. You seem to have serious corrosion in your wiring. I did think you were great in Life of Brian though https://www.google.com/search?q=drea...id:URTj4naIdAs

  27. #27
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    There are stories of Chinese Americans who are threatened by the Chinese government for speaking out about conditions in their own country of birth. They are told that their family members in China will face retaliation if they continue to speak out. If this is true it is despicable, and super creepy. Oh, and I’m aware that my government also has done despicable acts, but that doesn’t make either of them right.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Images on the news tonight of crematorium floors covered with the backlog of body bags containing the large number of people who died over the past few days from everything but covid. More western anti chinese propaganda no doubt.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    There are stories of non-Chinese living in China who would suffer reprisals if they spoke out about conditions in China.

    But I am unaware of foreigners being forced to deny a genocide in order to do business with China. It would appear to be a voluntary act. Perhaps improving one's social score is good for business.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by HRDavies View Post
    ...............how do people survive in life with such a down's baby attitude ?
    What an excellent argument in this discussion, it shows great respect for the fellow man.
    But perhaps a small re-education course is recommended, your mother has overlooked certain aspects of your behavior.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by HRDavies View Post
    Hearsay ... speculations ... crap ... garbage ... stupid ... lies


    Iraq, Iran-Contras Oliver North, Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, George W Bush, Condoleeza Rice, torture, John Yoo, Abhu Ghraib, and godknowswhatelse
    Is this because of the fear of a big hairy CPC ape coming to chew your ears off?

  32. #32
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by HRDavies View Post


    Yes, I noticed. You start out by deciding without even a shred of evidence that anyone with a different opinion "appears" to be something they are not. Then you proceed to swallow whole ridiculous assertions based on speculation and demonstrably false "evidence" by fraudulent "experts" who have zero qualifications (there are prison camps all over xinjiang ! I looked at satellite photos and saw fences ! I am an expert at satellite photos, I even said so !)
    ..
    Cow flop. You are ascribing your thought processes onto me.
    Pure fact free prejudice. You don't know me and make assumptions that I am like you.
    If I did as you say, I would not have spotted the errors in her text vis WI-Toms C&P of the actual criteria.
    Having spotted that discrepancy, I then looked to see what the organization says about itself. Then I formed my conclusions about them.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
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  33. #33
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    HR brings up satellite photos. I'd love to see him explain away this one.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    There's a load of speculation and repeating secondary sources on this thread. If you look hard enough, you can find written evidence about anything you like, some-one will have put something out there somewhere in support of just about anything you can imagine (pizza parlour paedophile rings, Jewish space lasers, a flat earth, take your pick). If you've got a position to support, you can find some-one to agree with you.

    I have actually been to Xin Jiang, I have lived and worked in the desert (looking for coal in the Dzungaria Basin) with both Uyghur and "Han" Chinese, I have attended official receptions ("get the foreigner drunk" fest, ACB & HRD know what I mean). My reporting is eye witness stuff, I was there, I saw it, I heard it, I don't lie. The following are my impressions from my time there, about 12 years ago, before the "re-education centres" were built.

    In the following, "Han" is shorthand for non Uighur Chinese.

    So, here goes....

    When I was in Xin Jiang, the Uighur had been objecting to "Han" occupation for many years, sometimes by small scale force of arms (they were reported to have occasionally shot a policeman or two, source, occasional western news reporting, and personal comment by non-Uighur Chinese nationals). There had been reported executions on the barrack square opposite the main hotel in Urumqi (this had just been stopped when I was there, too many foreign eyes watching, source - non-Uighur Chinese national and my British colleague, as eye witness).

    The Uighur were never promoted above foreman level (confirmed by me). All the local geologists were "Han", the drillers and labourers were Uyghur (confirmed by me, I got an well with all of them). All the officials (in banks, government organisations, etc.) were "Han" (confirmed by me). Our party had a government agent attached (one of the drivers, his English was very much better than he liked us to believe, incidentally, he was also a very good cook). All the police I met in Mure (also spelled Mule and Mori) were "Han", as were the border police (they came to visit our HQ one day, stood us against a wall one by one, and took our photographs, I was first in line, and was actually very slightly concerned for a moment, but it all ended in laughter).

    There was (is, I assume, I don't suppose it has been torn down) a great big pagoda immediately above the road between Urumqi and Mure, which was viewed as a sign of foreign domination by the Muslim Uighur.

    Some of the Uighur I spoke to (via our "Han" translators) complained that their imams were getting harassed and arrested, their secular teachers were not getting promoted as expected, they were all getting hassled. There was pressure to abandon their native settlements and move into towns, there were many of the traditional low, flat roofed Uighur dwellings abandoned in the countryside (confirmed by me).

    Twelve years ago the Uighur felt very much a subjugated people. Based on what I saw, I am quite prepared to believe that it has got much, much worse.
    Dwedais "Gwirion", nid "Twp"

  35. #35
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    29,395

    Default Re: The Uighur genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by CollinR View Post
    There's a load of speculation and repeating secondary sources on this thread. If you look hard enough, you can find written evidence about anything you like, some-one will have put something out there somewhere in support of just about anything you can imagine (pizza parlour paedophile rings, Jewish space lasers, a flat earth, take your pick). If you've got a position to support, you can find some-one to agree with you.

    I have actually been to Xin Jiang, I have lived and worked in the desert (looking for coal in the Dzungaria Basin) with both Uyghur and "Han" Chinese, I have attended official receptions ("get the foreigner drunk" fest, ACB & HRD know what I mean). My reporting is eye witness stuff, I was there, I saw it, I heard it, I don't lie. The following are my impressions from my time there, about 12 years ago, before the "re-education centres" were built.

    In the following, "Han" is shorthand for non Uighur Chinese.

    So, here goes....

    When I was in Xin Jiang, the Uighur had been objecting to "Han" occupation for many years, sometimes by small scale force of arms (they were reported to have occasionally shot a policeman or two, source, occasional western news reporting, and personal comment by non-Uighur Chinese nationals). There had been reported executions on the barrack square opposite the main hotel in Urumqi (this had just been stopped when I was there, too many foreign eyes watching, source - non-Uighur Chinese national and my British colleague, as eye witness).

    The Uighur were never promoted above foreman level (confirmed by me). All the local geologists were "Han", the drillers and labourers were Uyghur (confirmed by me, I got an well with all of them). All the officials (in banks, government organisations, etc.) were "Han" (confirmed by me). Our party had a government agent attached (one of the drivers, his English was very much better than he liked us to believe, incidentally, he was also a very good cook). All the police I met in Mure (also spelled Mule and Mori) were "Han", as were the border police (they came to visit our HQ one day, stood us against a wall one by one, and took our photographs, I was first in line, and was actually very slightly concerned for a moment, but it all ended in laughter).

    There was (is, I assume, I don't suppose it has been torn down) a great big pagoda immediately above the road between Urumqi and Mure, which was viewed as a sign of foreign domination by the Muslim Uighur.

    Some of the Uighur I spoke to (via our "Han" translators) complained that their imams were getting harassed and arrested, their secular teachers were not getting promoted as expected, they were all getting hassled. There was pressure to abandon their native settlements and move into towns, there were many of the traditional low, flat roofed Uighur dwellings abandoned in the countryside (confirmed by me).

    Twelve years ago the Uighur felt very much a subjugated people. Based on what I saw, I am quite prepared to believe that it has got much, much worse.
    Thank you. An account that I have no difficulty at all in accepting as accurate.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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