Water and wood rot

[dalekidd]

Who knows more about water and wood rot than wooden boat builders? Hence, I come to you for advice.

Up front, my question involves my house and not my boat. Here goes.

Unbeknownst to me, my toilet has been leaking for likely years. The floor underneath has rotted out. The rot goes through the plywood flooring into the joists, under adjoining walls, the plate over the foundation and even into the band.

A couple pics:

topside

IMG_9163.jpg

underneath

IMG_9160.jpg

In doing a little searching, apparently there is a difference between dry rot and wet rot. Obviously this is wet rot. Some places I've read that if you cut off the water source the rot will stop. Seems contrary to what I've heard/read before.

My plan is to cut out as much rot as is reasonably possible. Some wood will be extremely difficult to access/replace. My question is this: if I wind up leaving slight bits of darkened wood (say in the band or plate which would be very hard to repair or in 2x4's that make up the lower end of adjoining walls), will that be OK? Or will the rot continue to spread?

Is discolored wood all rotted? Or just wood that has softened and fails the "screwdriver test"?

Obviously I plan to correct the leak. I'd like to do all the work myself and save $10, 15, 20,000!

Thoughts?

[Nicholas Carey]

Rot is rot, dry or not. The rotten wood needs to be cut away to good. And rot is a fungus - it extends well into what looks to be good wood.

Correcting the leak is easy.

All that stuff that's rotted - joists, sill, etc. - are structural. No easy fixes there. The repairs need to be done properly.

And, unless you live someplace like Texas, you're almost going to have to pull a building permit for the repairs, so the building inspector is going to have to sign off on the work.

[wizbang 13]

House carpentry…. Piece of cake.
I would not pull a permit for that. Sawzall . A few hours . Impact driver, some two by six. I’d blast the area with green or brown or clear wood preservative from a pump up big sprayer when finished from underneath.
I mean… house carpentry…. Pfffft
that said…. I epoxy all the floors around the plumbing fixtures IN my houses and put filets up the walls and drill drain holes and don’t have plumbing to upstairs or refrigerators.
house carpentry … c ‘mon

[jpatrick]

I've done a fair bit of home remodel, including a total gut and redo of our current house. We also had a leaky toilet that was purchased with the house and a leaky wall that gave us an opportunity to use our wrecking bars, sawzall, and whatever. My best advice is to start taking it all apart. Don't skimp on the removal. That is... don't dither about. The job will be vastly easier if you give yourself room to work. If studs need fixing, then remove a lot of the sheetrock or other wall covering. Don't try to do it all in a tiny hole. Studs can be replaced one by one without having to support the loads above. If it's not a bearing wall... then you can remove the whole thing at once if you want. If you don't know if it's a bearing wall, then maybe get some help.

Take out what you can.

Jeff

[Hugh MacD]

What Jeff said: Don't work small...big is easier and much faster. I've tried the "keep it as original as possible" route and wasted several days on what should have been a simple project. Working "big" will also be a better guarantee that you've removed all of the spores in the wood.

[Arlc]

I’ve remodeled and renovated a fair number of houses myself. I’ll echo what others said above about not working small. I’d go a bit farther. Look at it as an opportunity to remodel and upgrade the bathroom. Tear it down to the studs and look at what the damage is. Most likely the water has seeped under the the bathtub also. Great opportunity for a sledge hammer. When you are done, if done properly, your have increased the value of your house.

[coelcanth]

when you reinstall the toilet, don't run the bead of caulk around the bowl's perimeter 100%.

if you leave a spot open at the back (where no one will see), you will get a warning when the wax ring is no longer making a good seal..
rather then leaking into the darkness for decades, you should spot some water seeping onto the floor and you'll know it's time to pull the toilet and inspect

[willin woodworks]

Wear a mask when you're ripping out rotted and moldy wood. As other have said, go big or dont go at all.

[sp_clark]

Before you start Sawzalling stuff, take a moment & think on keeping what's not gonna be cut out in its place.

Take pains to shore / brace what you want to keep 'cause trying to force it back into place - once you've removed what's been holding it up - is gonna be tougher than replacing that toilet properly.

[Ron Williamson]

Don't panic about "slightly darkened wood".
Spray bleach on it
Plenty of brand new fresh lumber is darkened,blue stained,punky and effing wet.
Mushy joists and black drywall are a different animal.
R

[dalekidd]

Guys, great advice. I hear you.

2 pics from today.

With tile removed as well as cabinet. The big deal is the rot goes under outside wall and the wall behind the toilet which leads to a walk-in closet.

IMG_9166.jpg

With most of floor cut away.

IMG_9177.jpg

Will update.

Oh, yea - went and bought a sawzall tonight. LOL

[wizbang 13]

That’s it keep going
impact driver … got an impact driver?
Is that the ground there ? Count yer blessings it’s not an upstairs crapper .

[robm]

That is pretty fearsome! Can you get underneath the floor joists to support them when you cut out the rotten parts? It looks like a dinky crawl space from hell.

Note to all builders of foundations: If you can't actually crawl into it, don't build it!

[Hugh MacD]

Seeing fungus growing out of those joists makes me want to go back several feet. What's up with that beam to the left (in the bottom photo) of the roughout? Is that 2X8 scabbed onto the side of a 4X8 that was short if its support or is the 4X behind it?

[wizbang 13]

Wow that looks really really ba…… hahahahahahahaa itsahousenotaboathahahahahahaha!

[Arlc]

Take out those walls and keep going until you get past the damage. Sister those joists. hang from good wood with joist hangers. Cut out damaged joists.
You’re having fun now! haha!
Consider putting a vapor barrier in the crawl space.

[Arlc]

Anybody in the family allergic to mold and/or fungus? This could explain a lot of chronic illnesses.

[nedL]

My understanding is that “rot” is caused be a fungus that can live in only a fairly narrow band of moisture content. Too wet and it can’t spread, too dry and it can’t spread.
Fix the leak (and supply of moisture), keep the wood dry and it won’t spread.

[sp_clark]

... really really ba…… hahahahahahahaa itsahousenotaboathahahahahahaha!

House is a boat that never leaves the dock.

... “rot” is caused be a fungus that can live in only a fairly narrow band of moisture content.

You'd be surprised how they (different fungi) can adapt to circumstances....

https://trexprotect.com/uk/blog/what...rot-treatment/

https://www.basementsystems.com/mold/dry-rot.html

https://www.sleepingdogproperties.co...t-is-wood-rot/

[wizbang 13]

House is a boat that never leaves the dock.



You'd be surprised how they (different fungi) can adapt to circumstances....

https://trexprotect.com/uk/blog/what...rot-treatment/

https://www.basementsystems.com/mold/dry-rot.html

https://www.sleepingdogproperties.co...t-is-wood-rot/

no it ain’t it don’t even get launched . It don’t sink when the cellar leak. Catamarangs don’t drag into it. The value goes up not down.

[dalekidd]

Seeing fungus growing out of those joists makes me want to go back several feet. What's up with that beam to the left (in the bottom photo) of the roughout? Is that 2X8 scabbed onto the side of a 4X8 that was short if its support or is the 4X behind it?

Not quite sure I follow you, but this was the layout. The center beam that runs the length of the house is a pair of 2x8's sandwiched together with a 2x6 nailed to the bottom. The joists set in the edges of the protruding 2x6. I guess they did this to avoid joist hangers.

The flange was situated right in the middle of that beam. I'm taking it out altogether and either moving it over or building supports under those three joists on either side of the flange.

[dalekidd]

Consider putting a vapor barrier in the crawl space.

Entire crawl space is covered with a heavy duty barrier. The other end of the house is where I built my boat. Here's a construction photo. The wall in the back does stay damp, but I run a dehumifier continuously and keep the humidity at between 50-60%.

IMG_5713.jpg

[dalekidd]

Current state of repair

IMG_9184.jpg
Attachment 127279

temporary supports

Attachment 127280
IMG_9188.jpg
Attachment 127281

IMG_9189.jpg

I'm going to spray some anti-fungal solution on all wood around the repair. Not sure what yet. Hydrogen peroxide has been suggested as well as alcohol, vinegar, bleach, etc. I also have some termite powder which has borate in it which, if I'm reading correctly, is a good anti-fungal.

[Arlc]

Suggest you go to a big box store and buy concrete sealer paint. 3-4 gallons. 3 coats. The concrete will suck up the first coat. This will help a lot with your moisture problem and electric bill for dehumidifier. LOL!

[Arlc]

Based upon what you have relayed here, I don’t think the leaking toilet is the only source of your mold/moisture problem.

[dalekidd]

Based upon what you have relayed here, I don’t think the leaking toilet is the only source of your mold/moisture problem.

Our house is built on a hillside in a "low" spot. Water drains to a culvert that runs under our front yard. Water from our driveway runs to the front of the house. I'm working on leading most of that water around the house. I poured a gutter shortly after we bought the house. Some of the water is not getting to it. So more to be done. The crawlspace was pretty humid before I put in the dehumidifier: lawn mower was rusting etc. Not sure of the cost to run it but it doesn't run constantly. I have it drained outside and set on automatic. I see no other mold issues except where the toilet leaked. Due to the location of the house, in the path of runoff off the hillside, I doubt I will ever be rid of the moisture issue completely.

[dalekidd]

Anybody in the family allergic to mold and/or fungus? This could explain a lot of chronic illnesses.

Two of us in the house - no issues. And my wife has the nose of a bloodhound!!!

[UCanoe_2]

Dale, now I understand why you have not been posting boat pictures. Your job is getting larger and larger. I would have already called a pro.

Your wet wall in #22 definitely looks like water intrusion from outside. We had a similar problem with runoff getting into the crawl space under the kitchen, then running beneath the house into the basement, which has no floor drain. Our contractor's solution was to build a retaining wall on the uphill side. Behind the wall there is a big French drain, a couple tons of gravel with perforated drain pipe leading out to the ends of the wall. We then graded the entire yard so water drains away from the house.

resized retaining wall.JPG

[Peerie Maa]

Current state of repair

IMG_9184.jpg
Attachment 127279

temporary supports

Attachment 127280
IMG_9188.jpg
Attachment 127281

IMG_9189.jpg

I'm going to spray some anti-fungal solution on all wood around the repair. Not sure what yet. Hydrogen peroxide has been suggested as well as alcohol, vinegar, bleach, etc. I also have some termite powder which has borate in it which, if I'm reading correctly, is a good anti-fungal.

Borax, in the form of Tim-bor, solution. https://www.borax.com/products/tim-bor

[UCanoe_2]

Nick, I noticed when we visited Scotland that the potties there discharge to the rear, like this one:

scottish potty.jpg

Is this standard practice in the UK? It makes a lot of sense to me.

I have experienced a toilet leak that caused a rotted floor, fortunately not to the extent of Dale's. It seems to me that the standard US design is seriously flawed. The rear discharge would make leaks less likely if the attachment to the floor came loose. If a leak developed, it could be easier to detect and repair.

Food for thought as you are remodeling, Dale......

[Peerie Maa]

Nick, I noticed when we visited Scotland that the potties there discharge to the rear, like this one:

scottish potty.jpg

Is this standard practice in the UK? It makes a lot of sense to me.

I have experienced a toilet leak that caused a rotted floor, fortunately not to the extent of Dale's. It seems to me that the standard US design is seriously flawed. The rear discharge would make leaks less likely if the attachment to the floor came loose. If a leak developed, it could be easier to detect and repair.

Food for thought as you are remodeling, Dale......

It is not standard, you can have iether.
When we did the refurb of our heads we went for a German made wall mount and cistern unit.


fromhttp://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?230107-Bathroom-Remodel

[NickW]

UK toilets typically have the discharge point to the rear as shown below.

This allows the use of a pan connector https://www.wickes.co.uk/Products/He...tors/c/1011005 to where ever the soil pipe is located, whether it be straight back as in UCanoe_2's post above, 90 degree down as below or 90 degrees sideways. We do not use wax seals all but rather elastomer labyrinth shown on the Wickes page linked. The soil pipe always comes into a bathroom above floor leveland projects a few inches into the room. Thus you can spot any leaks easily.


Nick

[Peerie Maa]

UK toilets typically have the discharge point to the rear as shown below.

This allows the use of a pan connector https://www.wickes.co.uk/Products/He...tors/c/1011005 to where ever the soil pipe is located, whether it be straight back as in UCanoe_2's post above, 90 degree down as below or 90 degrees sideways. We do not use wax seals all but rather elastomer labyrinth shown on the Wickes page linked. The soil pipe always comes into a bathroom above floor leveland projects a few inches into the room. Thus you can spot any leaks easily.


Nick

New fangled stuff.
Our house, built in the 1970's had this design of pan.


Because the cludgy under the stairs dumps straight into a stoneware ceramic soil pipe, it does have a wax donut seal.

[Ron Williamson]

^^^^^
Donuts will never taste the same.
R

[lupussonic]

It is not standard, you can have iether.
When we did the refurb of our heads we went for a German made wall mount and cistern unit.

Does it make you more regular knowing Cherman enchineering is taking care of the teknikals?