Intro: new guy from Bavaria

[MattGER]

Hi All!

Just wanted to introduce myself: I am Matt (Matthias) and I live in beautiful Bavaria. Unfortunately that is quite a ways from the nearest sea… But one has to make do and so I like to go sailing on the Bavarian lakes and on vacation the Baltic and Mediterranean.

Of course I have always wanted a boat and might finally be ready to buy or commission one.

I really like the smaller open boats. Like the working boats of the 19th and early 20th century. Also if possible I like to keep it on a trailer to be ready to take it sailing or even on vacation. The designs of Francois Vivier are really good imho and the Ilur has been on my shortlist for quite a while.

At the top of my list are traditional clinker build dinghys but there don‘t seem do be a lot of boatbuilders around who still build them.

One that I really like is the Lyøjolle by Jan Vogt: http://bootsjan.com/lyojolle/

What do you guys think about that boat? Maybe anybody knows the boat or the builder?

Anyway, I am enjoying the knowledgable and friendly atmosphere here!

Best, Matt

[johngsandusky]

Welcome aboard Matt!
I'm not familiar with that design, it is very handsome. I've always bought my boats used, except a couple that I built. Keep us posted on your search, good luck!

[Peerie Maa]

Hi, that is a handsom, roomy boat. I like it.

[StevenBauer]

The alpine lakes are beautiful. We stopped for a break in Rimsting on our ride to Salzburg . The Chiemsee. Looked like a great place to sail.

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[David G]

Guten Tag,

Welcome aboard. That's a very nice looking design. Do know that it appears to be a traditional 'plank on frame' construction. Many who keep their boats on trailers find traditional boat to be problematic, and opt for something similar, but a glued plywood lapstrake construction. Following are just a few examples, out of many --

https://www.chase-small-craft.com/deer-isle

http://jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/navigator/index.htm

https://www.archdavisdesigns.com/davis_penobscot14.html

https://sites.google.com/site/erichvalsoe/13and16

[MattGER]

Thank you all for the friendly words!

@StevenBauer: the Chiemsee is my „home lake“. I live about 45 min. from the northern shore

@David_G: those are some very beautiful designs! I especially like the ones by Eric Hvalsoe. The boatbuilder that makes the Lyøjolle thinks it will do fine on a trailer but Iˋve heard the same. Maybe build a support so that the whole keel is supported?

[Paul Schweiss]

I stumbled onto this builder while doing a YouTube search for Danish wooden boatbuilders. Besides building some nice looking boats I was intrigued by his comments about how the traditional boats needed to be sunk for several days each season to make them watertight again, but he was using “MS Polymer” adhesive caulk between the planks and even living on a trailer they were always water tight! You can find this other video by following the link the OP gave and clicking on the Lyøkutter, then click on the YouTube video and at the end of that there will be some more videos.
He has some lovely larch planking, and he also says his boats have no problems living on a trailer, partly due to this MS Polymer. Could be sales hype, but he appears to have been in business awhile, does boat shows, so maybe there is something to this MS Polymer.
A google search for that will lead you a merry chase, and it seems this product appeared in Europe first, but I intend to get a few samples and experiment with them as a lapstrake plank caulk., and a general paintable caulk and bedding compound. Muppet Labs lives!
It would also be very interesting to talk with some of his customers and get their experiences with trailer sailing, etc.

[Garret]

Thank you all for the friendly words!

@StevenBauer: the Chiemsee is my „home lake“. I live about 45 min. from the northern shore

@David_G: those are some very beautiful designs! I especially like the ones by Eric Hvalsoe. The boatbuilder that makes the Lyøjolle thinks it will do fine on a trailer but Iˋve heard the same. Maybe build a support so that the whole keel is supported?

Welcome! The bolded is true for any wood boat.

Eric occasionally posts here, is a really nice guy, and designs some pretty boats - both sail & power.

[NickW]

The designs of Francois Vivier are really good imho and the Ilur has been on my shortlist for quite a while.

M Vivier has partners who build or produce kits of his designs, many in Europe. See here for details https://www.vivierboats.com/en/category/partners-en/ Also Arwen Marine in France are agents for CLC https://www.arwenmarine.com/Index.html .

Nick

[MattGER]

There are so many options when looking for a boat!

I had looked at a lot of designs (I thought) but even from the answers above new options have emerged (for example: https://www.steinboot.at/ the gentleman builds a very nice version of Viviers Doris 5m).

So I thought it a good idea to ask the combined wisdom of the forum: which designs/options should I look at to make an informed decision?

For that it seems neccessary to lay out my priorities:

- I am looking for a boat to enjoy myself on the water. Maybe some dinghy cruising but no racing etc.
- I very much prefer classic to modern designs in boats
- More "work or fishing boat" than "yacht"
- My home waters are the Bavarian lakes which have either light winds or too much wind...
- I do want to take the boat with me on vacations, the Baltic, the Med, maybe Brittany so it needs to be seaworthy (as much as a small open boat can)
- It needs to be able to live on its trailer
- I need to be able to work the boat alone but it needs to be big enough for 2-3 people when my family or friends want to come along. I was thinking between 14 and 18 feet?
- It needs to be small and light enough to be slipped and rigged by myself alone
- I don't want an engine, it needs to row well, but I want a sailboat that can be rowed and not a rowing boat that can be sailed if that makes any sense...

So far my shortlist includes the Ilur (Vivier), the Pathfinder (Welsford) and the Ness Yawl.

One last and important thing: I do not want to build the boat, I am afraid I don't have the time or the space to do that (plus I own a old Land-Rover that takes all my spare time...) so I need to be able to buy a used boat or find someone to build a boat for me.

[Edward Pearson]

I think an Ilur would be ideal.

A few come up for sale in France for 6000-8000 euros usually each year. I'd look on chasse-maree and other french boat sites for one. I google 'ilur vendre fr' when looking but Vivier might tell you where the small boats get advertised or have a lead on any for sale.

This one was/ is 6000 euros.

https://www.chasse-maree.com/annonce...e-aviron-ilur/








To have a new boat built will be 15-20,000 euros probably. The kit is very quick and easier than most to build as it has a self building jig but with higher plywood prices at the minute is about 3,000 euros I think. So a months labour for someone and its going to be a fairly expensive dinghy by the time you have a trailer and sails. You'd loose money on a new one at that price, but get a decent boat at 6-8k and you'll resell it if you need to one day for what you paid. If you ask a boatbuilding school to build it for you, as a project for students you might get one cheaper. There's Skol Ar Mor boatbuilding school in France that Vivier helped set up. Traditional as well as plywood construction.

http://www.skolarmor.fr

If you buy a used boat, get the trailer wheels off's and check the bearings and grease them. Check the tyres are OK before trailering it a long distance.

[koederfischgriller]

Hi MattGER,

why not a Chiemeplätte?

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemseepl%C3%A4tte

Flat Bottom and i belive it's got some American Blood in its Bloodline

at least it looks very Chesapeake Bay'ish

Grüße, Grischdian

[MattGER]

I think an Ilur would be ideal.

A few come up for sale in France for 6000-8000 euros usually each year. I'd look on chasse-maree and other french boat sites for one. I google 'ilur vendre fr' when looking but Vivier might tell you where the small boats get advertised or have a lead on any for sale.

To have a new boat built will be 15-20,000 euros probably. The kit is very quick and easier than most to build as it has a self building jig but with higher plywood prices at the minute is about 3,000 euros I think. So a months labour for someone and its going to be a fairly expensive dinghy by the time you have a trailer and sails. You'd loose money on a new one at that price, but get a decent boat at 6-8k and you'll resell it if you need to one day for what you paid.

If you ask a boatbuilding school to build it for you, as a project for students you might get one cheaper. There's Skol Ar Mor boatbuilding school in France that Vivier helped set up. Traditional as well as plywood construction.

http://www.skolarmor.fr

That is probably the most sensible option. Even though it involves driving to the French coast which is at least a 2000 km round trip.

And I also keep coming back to the Ilur.

The school you posted is really interesting. Are you aware of a similar school that is English speaking (or German)? I‘d be very interested to learn more about traditional rope and sail work.

Thank you for the input!

[MattGER]

Hi MattGER,

why not a Chiemeplätte?

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemseepl%C3%A4tte

Flat Bottom and i belive it's got some American Blood in its Bloodline

at least it looks very Chesapeake Bay'ish

Grüße, Grischdian

Servus Grischdian,

I even looked at a Chiemseeplätte but somehow this is not my boat. Can‘t picture it on the Baltic either….

Best, Matt

[heimlaga]

The standard English/American dislike of traditional clinker built boats may have something to do with the typical English/American habit of building them with no felt nor cotton in the seams. Only wood against wood. No wonder those boats leak every time they have been out of the water. It may also have something to do with the dry climate in parts of America where clinker isn't a suitable way of building a boat.
In the Nordic countries there is always either cotton or oakum or felt or horsehair or cow's hair soaked in either boiled linseen oil or pine tar in the seams. This allows for a little drying out and some movement between the planks.
In Bayern the weather should be moist enough for a traditional clinker boat to be functional I rekon.

The me the lyöjolle looks hard to row with that deep transom. It seems more suited for an outboard motor. A compromize boat just like every other boat. The question is whether the compromize fits you.

[sandtown]

The people of Bavaria were amazingly kind and welcoming to me when I was with the "occupying forces" there in 1969-71.

I played some basketball with Sportbund Rosenheim.

There is a talented wood worker on our dock with a beautifully maintained Volkboat; great boats, but at 2100 Kg it is likely too heavy to trailer easily.

[John Meachen]

The standard English/American dislike of traditional clinker built boats may have something to do with the typical English/American habit of building them with no felt nor cotton in the seams. Only wood against wood. No wonder those boats leak every time they have been out of the water. It may also have something to do with the dry climate in parts of America where clinker isn't a suitable way of building a boat.
In the Nordic countries there is always either cotton or oakum or felt or horsehair or cow's hair soaked in either boiled linseen oil or pine tar in the seams. This allows for a little drying out and some movement between the planks.
In Bayern the weather should be moist enough for a traditional clinker boat to be functional I rekon.

The me the lyöjolle looks hard to row with that deep transom. It seems more suited for an outboard motor. A compromize boat just like every other boat. The question is whether the compromize fits you.

A good number of British boats had a luting of either primer paint or varnish applied to the mating surfaces.As for the notion of disliking,I suggest you get hold of one of the books by Eric McKee that describe the huge number of places where a small clinker boat was the normal choice.

[MattGER]

Only wood against wood. No wonder those boats leak every time they have been out of the water. It may also have something to do with the dry climate in parts of America where clinker isn't a suitable way of building a boat.
In the Nordic countries there is always either cotton or oakum or felt or horsehair or cow's hair soaked in either boiled linseen oil or pine tar in the seams. This allows for a little drying out and some movement between the planks.
In Bayern the weather should be moist enough for a traditional clinker boat to be functional I rekon.

In the case of the Lyøjolle the seams are treated with a flexible Polymer to ensure they are watertight and have some freedom of movement as well.

[MattGER]

The people of Bavaria were amazingly kind and welcoming to me when I was with the "occupying forces" there in 1969-71.

I played some basketball with Sportbund Rosenheim.

Rosenheim is just 40 min. away from where I live. Have you been over here since?

[heimlaga]

A good number of British boats had a luting of either primer paint or varnish applied to the mating surfaces.As for the notion of disliking,I suggest you get hold of one of the books by Eric McKee that describe the huge number of places where a small clinker boat was the normal choice.

I was thinking about the modern day dislike often seem expressed by some people on this forum and elsewhere.

[sandtown]

Rosenheim is just 40 min. away from where I live. Have you been over here since?

We traveled back frequently for some time and are still in touch with the ol' basketballers there and their families and kids . . .

but for the past while, our travels have been to NW US and New Zeeland.

If you want some time on a sailboat you might apply for a crew spot on the Vets For Peace Golden Rule;

but you have to be anti-nuke to do that.

It is the experience of a lifetime

[sandtown]

Hey Bavarian Gentleman -

I suggest that you do some learn to sail activities before you buy a boat . . .

Looks like they do that at Lake Chiemsee https://www.travelblog.org/Europe/Ge...og-631505.html

[MattGER]

I suggest that you do some learn to sail activities before you buy a boat . . .

That is solid advice.

And they indeed do that on the Chiemsee (and according to your link have been doing that for quite some time ��).

You can never learn enough of course, but I do have some sailing experience.

[sandtown]

Hey Bavarian Guy -

Tomorrow I am going to try to roast Schweinshaxe Munich Style,

any pro tips ?? ("pro tip". US english term for "good advice)

[MattGER]

Hey Bavarian Guy -

Tomorrow I am going to try to roast Schweinshaxe Munich Style,

any pro tips ?? ("pro tip". US english term for "good advice)

Put on a large pot with salted water. Add bay leaves, juniper berries, pepper and a quartered onion. Bring to a boil, then adjust the heat so the water isn't boiling but is still very hot. Add the Schweinshaxn (Tip#1: not in the cold water, otherwise the taste will be in the broth). Cook for about 1.5 hours.

Remove and score the rind in a diamond shape. Rub with salt and cumin.

In the oven, slide the rack into the middle rack and place a drip pan or casserole dish underneath to catch the fat. Place the Schweinshaxn on the grid and leave in the preheated oven at 390°F for approx. 1.5 hours.

Turn the Schweinshaxn halfway through. You can baste them with the saved fat if you want (but I never do).

Tip#2: If you have, you can turn on the oven grill for the last 15 minutes.


Not difficult at all. Have fun!

Matt

[MattGER]

What do you guys think about that boat:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/segeljolle-holz-retroklassiker/2277255522-211-23996

[sandtown]

What do you guys think about that boat:

\

She is a real beauty - likely excellent for protected waters.

I don't know why but boats in the US are much cheaper than in Europe - one third the price of boats in Europe, or less.

[Thad]

That's a very well fit out boat.

[sandtown]

There is nothing in the universe more captivating than a boat dream . . .

they even beat Schweinshaxe !!

[FF]

I saw a Swallow dinghy for sale. Design Andrew Wolstenhome. Red Cedar on steamed oak frames and copper clenched. Google www.natuurlijkvaren.nl
Frank
www.oarandsail.nl

[sandtown]

You will find that inland lakes often have light wind, at times not enough to move the boat.

It can be frustrating.

But it is still well worth it !!

A boat that is light enough to row is not a bad idea.

Don't bother with a motor.

[sandtown]

Put on a large pot with salted water. . . . Matt

Thanks !!