My new e-bike - Grin Tech hub motor first impressions

[rgthom]

Since the rains have finally stopped and the roads had a few days to mostly drain, I took the electrified randonneur bike out to see how it rode with the hub motor added and to look for any mustard starting to bloom in Suisun Valley. I did find a bit of mustard in one vineyard:



The bike rides great, my flat speed goes from 15 mph with my power only up to close to 25 mph with 300 W boost.

I stopped by to see the new Caymus Suisun winery. Caymus bought out our favorite family owned Ledgewood Creek winery, and are making a big splash with a fancy new tasting room:





When I got back, Melissa pointed out an article she just read in National Geographic:
Is this California wine region the new Napa? https://www.nationalgeographic.com/t...-alternatives?

There’s a California wine region, about a 45-minute drive from San Francisco, where grape vines run off to golden, oak-covered hills and wild turkeys shuffle across the road. Family vineyards and down-home tasting rooms provide friendly wine sampling, and the bottles are often reasonably priced.
But this isn’t Napa or Sonoma, it’s the bucolic Suisun Valley. The 8-mile-by-3-mile swath of vineyards and small farms feels like the Napa Valley of 50 years ago, with similarly top-notch wines.

Apparently our quiet little valley, which had a couple of jug wine type wineries when we moved here 30 years ago, is now a destination. Not sure I like this.....

[LeeG]

looks real good Rick

[rgthom]

looks real good Rick

Now I know this works, I'd like to put the rando bike back to human power and build up a new commuter e-bike. You had mentioned using a Gus frame, which should work great, but those are fairly pricy still even the few used ones which show up. Soma had a 2 day frame sale a couple of weeks ago, so for about 1/3 the price of a Gus I picked up a Buena Vista in 62 cm (the only size they had, just my fit). It has clearance for 42 mm tires (in 700c or 650b), disc brake mounts, fender and rack mounts, and sliding dropouts to accommodate derailleur or IGH hubs. Plus, it's a mixte!

I am planning to build it up with an Alfine 8 IGH hub, the DI2 version. No worries keeping the shifter battery charged since it can be powered by the USB port on the e-bike battery. This should turn out a one of a kind e-bike...

[rgthom]

Looking into the Shimano Alfine 8 IGH hub with DI2 electronic shifting I see some good reviews and videos. I also found the hubs in stock at several US distributors at around $200, not bad compared to Rohloff, so I ordered one to build up a wheel. Problem is, you also need the motor shift mechanism, switch and display/control unit. These are not obtainable, as far as I can tell. The US companies with the hubs do not even list the other parts and say they cannot get them. Some European distributors list them, but have none or say they are not current product. I can only find a few items on eBay. Shimano show the part numbers on their European website, and they do not show up on the discontinued list.

Lee, or any other forum bike nerd, do you know anything about Alfine DI2? It seems so odd that US distributors stock the DI2 hubs which are not usable by themselves. I will probably send the one I ordered back and go non-electronic, unless someone knows where to get this stuff.

[LeeG]

Can’t help you there on the Alfine. Are you doing a front hub motor with the Soma? I’ve been looking at that frame for years. I’d also like a lower standover than sloped tube ebike. Looked at a Marin Larkspur and Kona Coco as possibilities but I’m really sold on the stretched out ClemSmith geometry and the number of models like it for limited production in the US is about three models. The Rivindells and JonesBikes. I should just be happy with what I’ve got but it bugs me how underutilized this design is for popular use bikes.

[rgthom]

Can’t help you there on the Alfine. Are you doing a front hub motor with the Soma? I’ve been looking at that frame for years. I’d also like a lower standover than sloped tube ebike. Looked at a Marin Larkspur and Kona Coco as possibilities but I’m really sold on the stretched out ClemSmith geometry and the number of models like it for limited production in the US is about three models. The Rivindells and JonesBikes. I should just be happy with what I’ve got but it bugs me how underutilized this design is for popular use bikes.

Yes, the Soma is getting the hub motor so the rando can go back to just my power . It is the disc version, something Grant just won't touch for good reasons but it will work on this commuter.

[Tom from Rubicon]

This is an E-bike by a master builder from Indian Territory Oklahoma. Rolling stock fabricated in Gilroy, CA.

[Tom from Rubicon]

Details on request to the builder.


Tom

[LeeG]

Yes, the Soma is getting the hub motor so the rando can go back to just my power . It is the disc version, something Grant just won't touch for good reasons but it will work on this commuter.

I got a modern hardtail last year w hydraulic discs and am very impressed with the degree of braking control. What I don’t get is why the v-brakes on my ebiked ClemSmith are so squishy compared to the V- braked LHT which feels almost as good as the discs, except in the wet. I’m in 95% dirt and starting to consider a Rohloff to get the derailleur out of the brambles and sticks. Shimano or someone should make a 6 speed of so IGH for high torque motors that doesn’t cost over $500.

[rgthom]

I got a modern hardtail last year w hydraulic discs and am very impressed with the degree of braking control. What I don’t get is why the v-brakes on my ebiked ClemSmith are so squishy compared to the V- braked LHT which feels almost as good as the discs, except in the wet. I’m in 95% dirt and starting to consider a Rohloff to get the derailleur out of the brambles and sticks. Shimano or someone should make a 6 speed of so IGH for high torque motors that doesn’t cost over $500.

I keep hearing about people using Alfine 8 hubs on mid-drive mountain bikes and getting away with it. The torque of a motor would still be less than a big guy standing on the pedals, if you spin instead of mash it might be worth a try. The Alfine 8 are on sale at Universal Cycles for under $200 now, so you would have to go through 7 of them to match a Rohloff cost.

[LeeG]

I keep hearing about people using Alfine 8 hubs on mid-drive mountain bikes and getting away with it. The torque of a motor would still be less than a big guy standing on the pedals, if you spin instead of mash it might be worth a try. The Alfine 8 are on sale at Universal Cycles for under $200 now, so you would have to go through 7 of them to match a Rohloff cost.

I really need to get into adjusting the programming on the bbshd. I’d say it’s torque is greater and more abrupt than a couple big guys.

[Jack Loudon]

What I don’t get is why the v-brakes on my ebiked ClemSmith are so squishy compared to the V- braked LHT which feels almost as good as the discs, except in the wet.

Lee, you probably already know this, but compressionless cable housing should reduce squishiness. The housing is not spiral wound but the strands run parallel to the housing like a shifter cable. There is also housing made of solid segmented sections that does the same thing.

[Jack Loudon]

For a bombproof drivetrain in current production at low price I like the Microshift Advent 9 speed. When the stock alloy cassette on the mid drive wore out fast, I replaced with the Advent and it seems impervious to the extra power with 11-46 all chro-mo cogs. Around $100 for cassette, mech, and trigger shifter.

I'm glad you recommended Microshift, as I have my eye on their Advent X 10 speed 11-48 drivetrain for my Fargo. When Shimano parts became unavailable during Covid, new players moved in to fill the vacuum. I put a Sensah 11-46 system (from Velo Orange) on my other bike and am very satisfied but for a couple of reasons want to try Microshift.

I have so far resisted E-bikes but my wife is tempted, and if she gets one I'll need one as well, to keep up with her.

[amish rob]

AFAIK, all the Di2 stuff should work together, even inter-generationally. That is, any battery and junction box and shifter should work with any derailleur/shift motor.

My experience with Di2 is certainly not all-encompassing, but it’s always been a bit of a “bitsa” type system. We were mixing and adding shifters and displays to all manner of different shifters “back in the day”. Hahaha. It’s admittedly been a few years since I layed hands on any (because I don’t like it, personally), but I don’t imagine the fundamental system has changed much.

Also, it should be possible, failing all else, do download/upload new firmware to whatever components you assemble to make it all talk to each other and work.

For that bike, I might opt for the “aero bar” shifters, which are simple pads. Put “up” on one bar, and “down” on the other maybe?

ETA: mad jealous of that mixte frame. Probably the best, most useful type of frame, though a bit weighty compared to the equivalent double diamond. Not as popular here, I think, because they look like “girl” bikes and we live in a society of toxic macho nonsense.

[amish rob]

I got a modern hardtail last year w hydraulic discs and am very impressed with the degree of braking control. What I don’t get is why the v-brakes on my ebiked ClemSmith are so squishy compared to the V- braked LHT which feels almost as good as the discs, except in the wet. I’m in 95% dirt and starting to consider a Rohloff to get the derailleur out of the brambles and sticks. Shimano or someone should make a 6 speed of so IGH for high torque motors that doesn’t cost over $500.

Same levers, brakes, pads, and rims? Aside from the aforementioned housing, they all make a difference.

Also, it’s possible the brake studs are spreading at the frame. Brake bridges/braces used to be very popular for a reason.

It took me years to finally become a disc brake advocate, but I have never liked hydraulic brakes because I am a stickler for lever feel and travel, and hydraulics just don’t have the range of adjustment that good cable actuated brakes do.

And, cable actuated brakes have always had PLENTY of power for me; even when racing World Cup style downhill courses.

[LeeG]

Lee, you probably already know this, but compressionless cable housing should reduce squishiness. The housing is not spiral wound but the strands run parallel to the housing like a shifter cable. There is also housing made of solid segmented sections that does the same thing.

I’ll double check what I put on there. It’s Jagwire brand.

[rgthom]

AFAIK, all the Di2 stuff should work together, even inter-generationally. That is, any battery and junction box and shifter should work with any derailleur/shift motor.

My experience with Di2 is certainly not all-encompassing, but it’s always been a bit of a “bitsa” type system. We were mixing and adding shifters and displays to all manner of different shifters “back in the day”. Hahaha. It’s admittedly been a few years since I layed hands on any (because I don’t like it, personally), but I don’t imagine the fundamental system has changed much.

Also, it should be possible, failing all else, do download/upload new firmware to whatever components you assemble to make it all talk to each other and work.

For that bike, I might opt for the “aero bar” shifters, which are simple pads. Put “up” on one bar, and “down” on the other maybe?

ETA: mad jealous of that mixte frame. Probably the best, most useful type of frame, though a bit weighty compared to the equivalent double diamond. Not as popular here, I think, because they look like “girl” bikes and we live in a society of toxic macho nonsense.

Yeah, if I do it right the e-stuff should be pretty well hidden and I can fly past the carbon bikes on my girls bike. Should be fun....

I gave up on the DI2, too much I do not know but mainly triple the price when all done for a hub that folks say shifts just fine mechanically. Thanks for the info though, maybe I will try one someday.

[rgthom]

It took me years to finally become a disc brake advocate, but I have never liked hydraulic brakes because I am a stickler for lever feel and travel, and hydraulics just don’t have the range of adjustment that good cable actuated brakes do.

And, cable actuated brakes have always had PLENTY of power for me; even when racing World Cup style downhill courses.

Have you any recommendations for cable discs Rob? I am thinking of using the Growtac ones Velo Orange now carries. Waiting for one of their sales.

[amish rob]

I am a fan of the Avid BB7. They’re not too expensive, come in two different pull configurations (road lever or mountain lever, which pull different amounts of cable), and they are very adjustable, simple, and robust, and they’re simple to install and setup.

[LeeG]

Same levers, brakes, pads, and rims? Aside from the aforementioned housing, they all make a difference.

Also, it’s possible the brake studs are spreading at the frame. Brake bridges/braces used to be very popular for a reason.

It took me years to finally become a disc brake advocate, but I have never liked hydraulic brakes because I am a stickler for lever feel and travel, and hydraulics just don’t have the range of adjustment that good cable actuated brakes do.

And, cable actuated brakes have always had PLENTY of power for me; even when racing World Cup style downhill courses.

The squishy brakes have longer ebike levers w cut off switch. I’ll mess around with it to figure it out. I thought the longer brake pads might have been it but the LHT has them. The Clem is one big comfy barcolounger bike.

[amish rob]

Full length housings can also cause squish in a brake. Youngest Son’s BMX bike has a full length housing (with extra length to allow bar spins) and it precludes him from skidding effectively with his otherwise powerful U-brake.

My BMX has split housings, and even with cheap-ass linear pull brakes and big (29”) wheels, I can skid with ease.

Of course, the fixed wheel skids best of all.

[rgthom]

I am a fan of the Avid BB7. They’re not too expensive, come in two different pull configurations (road lever or mountain lever, which pull different amounts of cable), and they are very adjustable, simple, and robust, and they’re simple to install and setup.

Gosh, very inexpensive. Have to consider these, thanks.

[Jack Loudon]

I’ll double check what I put on there. It’s Jagwire brand.

If it came from Rivendell, it's most likely Jagwire CEX, a coiled type commonly found in bulk at bike shops. I've used it and it seemed okay, so maybe it's something else. Like Rob said, a variety of things could cause squishiness. Once I had spongey brakes and traced it to poorly cut housing ends, that would compress a little inside the end caps when the brakes were applied. I could actually see it when squeezing the brakes. Filing the ends flat fixed the problem.

[rgthom]

I took the e-Fitz with front hub motor for my 34 mile commute today. On a low wind day, the mid-drive would use up about 3/4 of the 840 Wh battery and take around 2 hours. The e-Fitz did 2 hours despite a couple of trail washouts, and took a measured 398 Wh or less than half the charge. At 11.8 Wh/mile, range would be around 70 miles.

There is around 2000 feet of elevation gain and loss over the distance, on some of the climbs with the mid-drive I have used 400 and 600 W settings. The e-Fitz used 200 and 300 W settings on the flat to do 22 - 25 mph, and I stayed at 300 W on the hills because it was still pulling well at 10 - 15 mph. I had heard that hub motors were less efficient than mid-drives, so this performance is a surprise to me.

The highest motor temperature, going uphill at 300 W, hit 56 C with an outside temperature about 10 C. The beginning of power rolloff is 90 C, so not even close.

I keep thinking of adding a solar trailer and cruising the country when the mixte is done and this motor is moved to that.

On the bike trail overlooking Vallejo:

[rgthom]

On the way home the Diablo winds picked up, hot and in my face. It went from close to freezing in the morning to almost 70 F on the way home. I took the long way to avoid the washouts, and cranked up the power to 300 W on the flats and 500 W on the climbs.

Stats were 36 miles in 2 hr 15 min, 466 Wh used at 13 Wh/mile. Max motor temp 73 C. Increasing power for the hills did not use much more energy, and motor temp stayed well below max. All still much better than expected.

A couple of photos at the Zampa Bridge over the Carquinez Strait, Golden Bear is at the dock:

[Jack Loudon]

Thanks for the nice photos and write-up on the Grin Tech front-drive motor. Your positive report has tempted me to consider trying this system on an unused Long Haul Trucker bike.

The Carquinez and Golden Bear pictures brought back memories. In 1969 I had a good friend at California Maritime Academy, and hitchhiked up from San Jose to see him. I somehow ended up walking across the Carquinez bridge, which (if memory serves) had no sidewalk, only a wide curb and low guardrail. Something only a dumb kid would do.

I also thought of applying to CMA but the place had a quasi-military vibe which was antithetical to me at the time. Spit polish shoes and all that. My CMA friend and I parted ways 50 years ago largely because of opposing views on the Viet Nam war, but happily we re-connected a few years ago and picked up where we left off.

[rgthom]

Thanks for the nice photos and write-up on the Grin Tech front-drive motor. Your positive report has tempted me to consider trying this system on an unused Long Haul Trucker bike.

The Carquinez and Golden Bear pictures brought back memories. In 1969 I had a good friend at California Maritime Academy, and hitchhiked up from San Jose to see him. I somehow ended up walking across the Carquinez bridge, which (if memory serves) had no sidewalk, only a wide curb and low guardrail. Something only a dumb kid would do.

I also thought of applying to CMA but the place had a quasi-military vibe which was antithetical to me at the time. Spit polish shoes and all that. My CMA friend and I parted ways 50 years ago largely because of opposing views on the Viet Nam war, but happily we re-connected a few years ago and picked up where we left off.

Should work great on a LHT. The most expensive part of the system would be a battery, I had one already for mine.

The best part of the new Zampa is the bike lane, which connects (after the refinery) to the Pinole Shores bike path. The Benicia Bridge also has a bike lane, as does the Richmond and GG. We just need one now on the Bay Bridge.

Sophomore year of college a buddy and I were burned out and went to talk to a CG recruiter. He said come back after you graduate. So then we tried to buy a D9 and get into grading farmland (his family farmed upstate NY). Luckily we came to our senses.....

[LeeG]

I got the CG enlistment packet after registering for the draft then the draft ended and I decided to ride up the coast on my Nishiki instead.

[rgthom]

A box of parts from Velo Orange arrived today, so I got the fork installed. The sealed bearing headset from VO has split bearing rings, making it much easier to install without the proper tools. I faced the head tube with a file and machinists square, and installed the cups using a mallet and block of wood. Not sure Rob would approve . The stem is a one piece Tall Stack, with 15 mm spacers under for now as I am not ready to cut down the steerer. Both wheels will have black hubs and silver rims, so I will mix up black and silver components.



The teal in this photo is actual color, the light blue in the earlier photo was in LED light. Melissa says it is a girly bike in a girly color .

[amish rob]

I disapprove of “skateboard” bearings in bikes more than wood bearing setters; although I do have the proper Park tools for both operations. Not that most frames nowadays need chasing or facing…

I really do not like cartridge bearings in bikes, though, even though both my bikes have them at the BB and headset, now. One of my bikes has them in the wheels, too! Barf.

I MUCH prefer loose balls and hardened races, which can be sealed just as well as so called “sealed” bearings. Which, if you’ve ever owned a skateboard you know the seals pop right out and the bearings are always FULL of gunk. Hahaha.

That frame looks really nice. I can’t wait to see it all built up. Incidentally, my buddy Matias has a company that makes a fork called The Barnacle. It’s covered in rivnuts for mounting fenders, racks, water bottles, and/or whatever else a body might need to mount on a commuter/touring bike. They’re pretty neat, although they wouldn’t color match that sweet teal.

[rgthom]

I disapprove of “skateboard” bearings in bikes more than wood bearing setters; although I do have the proper Park tools for both operations. Not that most frames nowadays need chasing or facing…

I really do not like cartridge bearings in bikes, though, even though both my bikes have them at the BB and headset, now. One of my bikes has them in the wheels, too! Barf.

I MUCH prefer loose balls and hardened races, which can be sealed just as well as so called “sealed” bearings. Which, if you’ve ever owned a skateboard you know the seals pop right out and the bearings are always FULL of gunk. Hahaha.

That frame looks really nice. I can’t wait to see it all built up. Incidentally, my buddy Matias has a company that makes a fork called The Barnacle. It’s covered in rivnuts for mounting fenders, racks, water bottles, and/or whatever else a body might need to mount on a commuter/touring bike. They’re pretty neat, although they wouldn’t color match that sweet teal.

I agree the "sealed" bearings are not so sealed, but you can pop one out and replace it worst case. For the BB most are sealed now, I think. Riv sells a retro one ball and cone, could go with that. I remember having the tools to install and tension those, years ago.

Can you please advise on disc rotors Rob? One hub is centerlock and one is 6 bolt. I'd like the rotors to match appearance as much as possible, what is available? 160 mm.

[amish rob]

I’m pretty darned sure they Avid makes both 6 bolt and center lock 160 mm rotors for their brakes.
Handy if you go the Avid route.

I’m actually pretty darned sure everyone makes both types of mounting styles, and as long as they’re from the same company, they should match pretty closely.

Back when, there were no standards for mounting, even, and all the companies had their own proprietary mounts. Adaptors and make-dos were the order of the day. It’s gotten better, but I still think even more standardization would improve things.

And, somebody should make a damned floating disc or floating rotor, already, to eliminate the eventual tick,tick,tick that comes when a rotor gets bent/warped. Hahaha.

Which, one of the best parts of the Avid BB7s, to me, is the adjustable nature of the caliper and pads. Super simple to dial them in and adjust them, and change/adjust/modify lever feel; you can have light switches, or modular dreams that engage just at the bar.

ETA: and the cartridge bearing deal is just my personal prejudice. As noted, even I have succumbed to the modern era and have cartridge bearings in my bikes. Sigh… hahahaha.
I remember a dude I raced track bike with who had some Crampandslogo track parts that were just lightly oiled, never greased. You could spin the crank and the drivetrain would keep spinning for minutes, with so little friction and so little noise. There’s no real substitute for finely adjusted bearings rolling in good races. Sigh… am I a curmudgeon, now? Hahahaha.

[rgthom]

Thanks Rob. Looks like there are about a million rotor choices now, just got to pick something.

[LeeG]

I just trashed a third derailleur riding my Bafanged bike like a motorcycle. Maybe it’s time for a Rohloff or Honda Trail 125.

[rgthom]

Finally got all the parts and finished putting together the new mixte frame e-bike.



The Alfine 8 speed IGH shifts with no pedaling. Using PAS only to turn on the motor it does not need any brake or other cutoff switches.

I went with the Growtac Equal cable disc brakes. More $ than BB7s (but less than Klampers). They are easy to set up and powerful.

Cable routing on the mixte frame is pretty clean, held with velcro for now but will be neater with nylon ties.

Only a few test rides so far but it is fast and agile. Fenders and a rack still to install.