Oars, grain orientation etc.

[Toxophilite]

Why oh why did this become a debate of titebond 3 vs epoxy?

I think the oars in question have been left out in sun rain snow and weather for god knows how long. Far from salt water and boats. They haven't been used as oars for a looooong time. I didn't post them to fuel either side of a debate.
Both flipping glues are good and have their uses.

[Spot]

You a funny man! Barkely Sound oars, thus titebond 3. However they look like they've been left outside forever.

These are 9' oars
MT Rower, thanks for the tips, beautiful oars. I don't currently have a table saw but I'm picking up an old delta Rockwell table saw this week...after the snow dump, and after I replace the front springs on my car.Attachment 125500

Cool saw! Is that a tilting table model? Takes me back about 25-30 years when I had one. Remember your push sticks and watch your fingers!

[Toxophilite]

Yes a tilting, rising and lowering table. Kind of strange in that regard but supposedly good basic machines. Hopefully it comes with the rolling dolly as they're supposedly prone to be top heavy and gerally wheels are good.
I plan to be very careful. Frankly though I have used them a lot on movie sets for a several years, they still give me the willies.

[stromborg]

I plan to be very careful. Frankly though I have used them a lot on movie sets for a several years, they still give me the willies.

I've been using my tablesaw recently for the first time in years. The lack of run-off tables is annoying/spooky. I don't miss my days of building scenery so much as I miss the 20,000 square foot shop.

There is a set of 9' oars on my list of winter projects, my big question is spoon or flat...but that is worthy of it's own thread

[wizbang 13]

Oh gosh, sorry i turned it into a debate. Apologies. I owe you another beer .
Rob too .. sorry mate.

[Canoeyawl]

"Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue is not for continuous submersion or for use below the waterline. Not for structural or load bearing applications."

http://titebond.com/product/glues/e8...c-b53970f736af

I wouldn't use it, especially after looking at those oars pictured

[Toxophilite]

Coke? OR Pepsi??

[Canoeyawl]

More like Coke or Rum?

[Toxophilite]

Sounds good. Don't like either though. Nor mixed. You can have both!

Very few adhesives stand up to tonnes of rain, sun etc. and continuous warming and drying cycles over years with no protective coating (these oars were brought to the sellers house by a friend for refinishing and then the friend died and the oars sat outside I believe. Maybe they're cursed?).
However they didn't delam due to normal everyday usage. NOr the repeated brief dunkings that oars get

I haven't seen any reviews of Barkely sound oars coming apart, he was in busines for many many years I believe and has now retired.

My old boat came with some that looked brand new. Lot's of people up here have them. As I said earlier:

I think the oars in question have been left out in sun rain snow and weather for god knows how long. Far from salt water and boats. They haven't been used as oars for a looooong time.


Using those old unfinshed oars that were left out in the weather forever as an example of titebond's effectiveness or not, is like saying unprotected epoxy is crap because it turns opaque and yellow and starts to crack, peel and degrade from extended constant sun exposure.

[akitchen]

It's like using white glue from what I remember. It's an uber titebond with some stuff in it to make it a bit thicker for gap filling. Nothing like epoxy of course which loves a gap. What do you clean up epoxy with? I thought acetone was the best epoxy clean up. Eagle urine?

I use vinegar. Works fine.

[John Howland]

Dale Zimmerman of Franklin International, maker of Titebond woodworking glues, recommends 100 to 150 pounds per square inch (psi) for clamping softwoods and 175–250 psi for hardwoods.

[Canoeyawl]

Dale Zimmerman of Franklin International, maker of Titebond woodworking glues, recommends 100 to 150 pounds per square inch (psi) for clamping softwoods and 175–250 psi for hardwoods.

That's a lot of pressure...

[stromborg]

That does seem like a lot of squeezing, but those numbers popped up in a string of woodworking articles this morning when I went rabbit-holing in the Internet Woods this morning.

[willin woodworks]

Your basic pipe clamp and bar clamp can easily produce clamping pressures upwards of 400 psi. An 8" C clamp will exceed 1000 psi with normal hand operation. PVA glues like Titebond do best when the the glue in the glue line is minimized under high pressure.
Im not sure its possible to overclamp PVA's.

[jpatrick]

I have glued many wood panels in my vacuum press. My pump cannot achieve total vacuum but it gets close. So figure 15 psi, more or less. That's way less than 100 to 150 psi, yet the panels have never failed or even come close to acting like it. I have also done rubbed joints with pva. These are when one attaches a glue block to reinforce another join. They don't fail. Nor have any of my panel edges/nosings come off that I "clamped" using masking tape.

More important than pressure, when using pva, is a close fit-up. One wants smooth surfaces in close contact with one another. In situations where this is impossible, then other adhesives must be used. Edge to edge joins as we see on oars, are not in this difficult category.

Jeff

[rgthom]

The problem I had with PVA when making oars was short working time. This was for laminating thin stock to make curved blades, which means large area in several layers. In hot dry CA the PVA sets too fast. Epoxy stays a slippery oozing mess until it kicks, which was long enough to get the stack clamped to shape.

[wizbang 13]

That's a lot of pressure...

A lot more than NO pressure fer sher.

[Toxophilite]

oy vey

[David Satter]

Titebond III will be fine. I think when he makes landfall, we should ask https://www.tomrobinsonboats.com/ What glue he used. I think I might go with what he used.

[wizbang 13]

The bitterness of low quality remains after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

[ulav8r]

I have glued many wood panels in my vacuum press. My pump cannot achieve total vacuum but it gets close. So figure 15 psi, more or less. That's way less than 100 to 150 psi, yet the panels have never failed or even come close to acting like it. I have also done rubbed joints with pva. These are when one attaches a glue block to reinforce another join. They don't fail. Nor have any of my panel edges/nosings come off that I "clamped" using masking tape.

More important than pressure, when using pva, is a close fit-up. One wants smooth surfaces in close contact with one another. In situations where this is impossible, then other adhesives must be used. Edge to edge joins as we see on oars, are not in this difficult category.

Jeff

Perfect vacuum would be 14.7psi at sea level, less at higher elevations.

[pvg]

oy vey

Amen!

[John Howland]

If the glue is too thick it becomes less flexible and can not move with the wood expansion and contractions during extreme condition.

[Toxophilite]

So I laminated up the looms with epoxy Now I'm going to make the blades .


I wonder if people have insight/opinions on blade shape and width?
I was going to copy my Barkely sound oars as I enjoyed them but then I was ogling Shaw and Tenney straight bladed oars and was curious about longer slightly thinner blades.
Their wide blade oars are 5' 3/8" while their longer ones are 4 5/8"

Any insight as to performance? The Barley sound 8' oars I had had blades 5'1/8" wide about 25" long
Culler oars , including a long taper have blades somewhat similar to Shaw and Tenny's long narrow blades
Shaw and Tenny's calculations would have my oars being 9' long (current oars are 9'1")

For rowing as an auxilliary, 1-3 hours, maybe longer as needed when camping.

[MT Rower]

Personally, I prefer long and skinny since I don't have to feather them (among other reasons). IMHO, it all comes down to personal preference. When working on my oars, I found Andrew Steever's book helpful for guiding my thinking and decided what my priorities were for blade shape:

https://archive.org/details/oarsforpleasurer00andr

[rgthom]

Steevers equations show short, wide blades are most efficient, like racing oars. Practical considerations, such as clearing wave tops if not feathering, lead to longer thin blades. I do feather, one set I made copied Concept 2 hatchet blades but with more angle to the shaft since my gunnels are higher than a racing shell. Another set copied Pocock wooden sculls.

[Toxophilite]

THe shaw and tenny formular seems reasonable putting the oars for my boat at 9' Is there any advantage to having longeroars other than more potential outboard weight? Lowish freeboard about 12" maybe more like 10
For some reason I was making mine to 9'6" but I am now at the point in the build where I can reasonably shorten them.

[Woxbox]

THe shaw and tenny formular seems reasonable putting the oars for my boat at 9' Is there any advantage to having longeroars other than more potential outboard weight?
For some reason I was making mine to 9'6" but I am now at the point in the build where I can reasonably shorten them.

Length is somewhat like selecting a gear on a bicycle. A longer oar means more work to maintain a given cadence, but more speed for the effort. Another consideration is the height of the gunnel/oarlock. If a boat is deeper than average, a longer oar is helpful just to keep the angle reasonable -- you don't want to be pulling at head height. All that said, I believe that working a shorter, lighter oar at a higher cadence is better than fighting a long, heavy blade at a slower pace. Of course, everyone has their happy middle ground.

[Toxophilite]

Making progress. Went with the edge grain orientated fore and aft. 9' long
Was originally going to copy my Barkely sound oars with short wider blades but then I got looking at and Tenney oars, and Culler's design, and ship oars and admiralty oars etc. etc. and actually ended up making something awfully like Cullers design except so far with wider blades.
5" at the tip vs 4.5" and then tapering down to 4.25" over 2 feet.. I might thin them out a little too, maybe tapering down to 4"
I'm realizing that the dissatisfaction with the oars that came with the boat probably have to do more with my own unfamiliarity and inexperience.
In a calm the other day I was managing 2.5 knts really relaxed rowing, slightly more effort gave me 2.8 . I could maintain 3 knots for quite a while and hit max. 3.4 going all out. I was playing around with 'gearing ' too starting off with them a little inboard.

I will not leaving the inboard looms completely square. I'll probably knock the corners off some

Now I want to make another pair, especially as I realized that if I found a couple of pretty clear 10' 1x6's or 1x8' that's all I'd need.
I got the 2x stock free regardless.

Still have to do all the final shaping and thinning out of the blades , handle shaping etc. etc.
The oars my boat came with weigh in at around 5 lbs each. So far these are around 6.5 and made from the same board.

Just broke the belt on my bench sander, a 36" long 4" wide belt of 40 grit comes in awfully handy for initial loom rounding.

What do people think regarding blade width ? 4" tapering to 5" too wide for long bladed 9' oars?

[heimlaga]

I think those will make a very good pair of oars.
Personally I don't like the short wide blades so fashionable theese days. They are great for rowing on flat water but in a bit of a seaway you are forced to feather the oars all the time which is tiring for the wrists. I normally feather the oars only when rowing upwind. Your choice of blade shape makes sence to me.
I also like the fact that the inboard end of the oars has a bit of counterweight. This makes rowing significantly less tiring for the shoulders.

[Toxophilite]

I think those will make a very good pair of oars.
Personally I don't like the short wide blades so fashionable theese days. They are great for rowing on flat water but in a bit of a seaway you are forced to feather the oars all the time which is tiring for the wrists. I normally feather the oars only when rowing upwind. Your choice of blade shape makes sence to me.
I also like the fact that the inboard end of the oars has a bit of counterweight. This makes rowing significantly less tiring for the shoulders.

An endorsement from a Finn! Well worth having. Thank you. One of my good sailing friends is Finnish and he is one of the most accomplished, knowledgable, courageous, and determined people I know.

[Woxbox]

Doesn't look too wide to me. And of course, you can always shave them down later, but you can't shave them up.