Oars, grain orientation etc.

[Toxophilite]

I want to build some 9'3" straight bladed oars for my boat.
I have some spruce (I believe)
My drummer had a 20' 2x6 he was going to make a mast out of to fly a flag, ripped a really nice 1.5' square piece of one edge, then ditched the project, and let me have the wood.
I had to cut it in half to bring it home atop my smart car. It's now 2 pieces 10' long by 4" wide. I was going to rip a 2" wide piece out of the clearest length of each piece, Unfortunately this seems to be different sides with different grain orientation.
I was going to use just the flat sawn sides but one has a 3/8- 1/2" knot travelling diagonally through it halfway down
The two chosen sides are quite clear, One has a few pin knots

What I've read tells me the loom grain needs to be at right angles to the oar blade, which makes sense.

I will be laminating pieces on either side of the end of the shaft for the blades, as well as laminating 7'-8' lengths about 5/16" thick down each "face' of the loom rip to make each loom a full potential round 2" for shaping and tapering.

Here are the pieces, one will be essentially flat sawn the other is kind of quartersawn but also angled, the pieces I will be using are the middle two sections with the grain orientation emphasized with pencil

To compensate for this I will gluing the blade pieces onto the face of one and the edges of the other. Both looms will have 5/16" thickening pieces glued to. both their faces.

Sound good? Overthinking the grain orientation? Is 5/16" too thin to glue on and taper out on an oar?

I have epoxy and titebond 3. I know Barkley Sound oars used to use titebond 3. HIs oars are nice. What do people reccommend?IMG_4373.jpg

[wizbang 13]

Why do people even ask this? Why use anything in place of epoxy other than to save a nickel?
Does any glue have any advantage over epoxy beyond theatre?

[Toxophilite]

Are you still upset about the MPB cream?

I think you already know the answer but I'll explain, get your dreadlock cream ready!

The Barkely Sound oars I have are very nicely made . They use titebond 3 TItebond 3 is waterproof if not used continuously below the waterline, it has gap filling qualities, it doesn't stink, isn't nasty, requires no poisonous acetone, and it cleans up with %&^%^ water what's not to love?
(I successfully use epoxy too, it's great stuff, but if I don't have to , I won't)

Humourously I got the titebond 3 for free from a movie set where I worked as a carpenter.
I got the West epoxy for free too, so savings isn't an issue.

Why do people even ask this? Why use anything in place of epoxy other than to save a nickel?
Does any glue have any advantage over epoxy beyond theatre?

[John hartmann]

A link to a thread about oar making, with discussion and photos of laminating which might be of interest to you:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...de-wooden-oars

I used epoxy when I made a pair of 9’3” spoons to Clint Chase’s design, and will use epoxy for a pair of 12 & 1/2 foot break apart oars for a Vivier Jewell once the worst of winter is past and it becomes a bit easier to keep the shop warm.

[jpatrick]

If the fit-up is good, and you've got smooth surfaces, and you can clamp well, then there's no reason to not use Titebond 3.

Jeff

[wizbang 13]

I never used it , tru dat.
Who requires acetone?
Water clean up you say??? Hmmm how messy is it to use?how do it sand?(gum up paper?)

[Toxophilite]

It's like using white glue from what I remember. It's an uber titebond with some stuff in it to make it a bit thicker for gap filling. Nothing like epoxy of course which loves a gap. What do you clean up epoxy with? I thought acetone was the best epoxy clean up. Eagle urine?

[John hartmann]

Alcohol works well to clean up uncured epoxy; judicious heat and scrapers once cured.

[John Meachen]

Once the glue is stronger than the wood,its pretty academic.For rowing loads the grain orientation won't make a huge difference but for fending off jetties and poling the boat in shallow water it might have a little relevance.

[Woxbox]

I've used both Titebond III and epoxy for paddles. Both work fine if used according to directions. The epoxy has the advantage of much longer glue-up time. Titebond starts to skim over pretty quickly.

[wizbang 13]

It's like using white glue from what I remember. It's an uber titebond with some stuff in it to make it a bit thicker for gap filling. Nothing like epoxy of course which loves a gap. What do you clean up epoxy with? I thought acetone was the best epoxy clean up. Eagle urine?

firstly, don’t make a mess that needs cleaning up
no mixing in yogurt cups
no using credit cards as squeegees
I clean up with one of a fleet of sanders

[pvg]

I believe the "gap filling" property of TB3 means it's an effective adhesive for open grained woods like mahogany, but still requires very good mating surfaces. Epoxy, on the other hand, will fill much larger gaps that are due to splits, irregularities, poor workmanship, or (intentionally) coarse surface preparation; e.g. sanding with 60x or 80x sandpaper.
pvg

[jpatrick]

I've always understood that all the Titebond glues required a close fit-up and were not considered to be gap filling, at all. So I just did a review of their website and my understanding seems to be confirmed. The literature says to bring the mating surfaces into close contact. That disallows any gaps to my way of thinking. I have spread gallons of Titebond glue over the course of my working career and never had any problem with it. But, I've always adhered to the simple guideline of close fit-up and heavy clamping pressure. If TB3 allows differently, I'd like to see that in print.

Jeff

[wizbang 13]

I believe the "gap filling" property of TB3 means it's an effective adhesive for open grained woods like mahogany, but still requires very good mating surfaces. Epoxy, on the other hand, will fill much larger gaps that are due to splits, irregularities, poor workmanship, or (intentionally) coarse surface preparation; e.g. sanding with 60x or 80x sandpaper.
pvg

60 / 80 is coarse?
What you call poor workmanship, I call understanding epoxy and good engineering.

[pvg]

I've always understood that all the Titebond glues required a close fit-up and were not considered to be gap filling, at all. So I just did a review of their website and my understanding seems to be confirmed. The literature says to bring the mating surfaces into close contact. That disallows any gaps to my way of thinking. I have spread gallons of Titebond glue over the course of my working career and never had any problem with it. But, I've always adhered to the simple guideline of close fit-up and heavy clamping pressure. If TB3 allows differently, I'd like to see that in print.

Jeff

Yes, thanks Jeff. Titebond Company does not use the term "gap filling" as one of its properties...
pvg

[wizbang 13]

Yes, thanks Jeff. Titebond Company does not use the term "gap filling" as one of its properties...
pvg

So… eff tite bond and the ship it sailed in on
why use subs for epoxy?

[Gordon Bartlett]

I agree with Rob here. In this case, we're gluing together two straight, flat pieces. There should be no problem getting good fit.
I'd use the tite bond. I have never seen it fail under conditions like this.

[Toxophilite]

My mistake on the gap filling, I think I got inaccurate info when I got the glue and didn't bother checking it. Apologies.
I haven't tried it in a gap filling capacity myself. Titebond does have one that is gap-filling, could've been a mix up

As I said Barkely sound oars are glued up with Titebond 3 and have been forever and they're fine oars, maybe not Shaw and Tenny fine but close enough, less expensive and for me comparatively local. They're out of business now though(RETIRED, not as a result of titebond 3 haha)
.
I think it's okay to use other adhesives other than epoxy..unless you have an endorsement from West.

My other oar making approaches are fine? I'd read about the grain orientation and thought it might be good to orientate them somewhat similarly.

[wizbang 13]

Rob, Good joinery is not less work than mixing epoxy , c’mon .

[willin woodworks]

But good joinery is no more work than mixing epoxy either. TB# is perfectly good for oars, paddles etc. Lots of clamps, lots of pressure and planed faying surfaces; NOT sanded.

TB3 and epoxy both have their places and epoxy can be cleaned up with plain old white vinegar. No reason to use acetone...

[Gordon Bartlett]

Rob, Good joinery is not less work than mixing epoxy , c’mon .

Again, I'm going to disagree. This is not "joinery" as in dovetails or mortise-and-tennon. It's just two straight, flat surfaces.
Straight, flat, and parallel are the default conditions for most woodworking shop processes.
Used with care, a table saw, jointer, or planer will produce a surface ready for glue. There is probably a higher risk of epoxy starvation than of too much gap for wood glue. Hacking up the surfaces to allow room for epoxy just adds another step to the process.
Then there's the gluing itself:
With the tite bond, I grab the bottle, squeeze a line of glue along the surfaces, smoosh it around a little with my finger, and clamp the pieces together.
Wipe off the squeeze-out with a rag or a paper towel, dampened with water if desired.
Done.
No containers, no measuring or mixing. No pumps or scales or vinegar or acetone or alcohol.
And the house doesn't smell like a chemical factory.
I would feel differently if I were working with just an adze, a bow saw, and a draw knife.
And I had a fleet of sanders. But then I'd have to clean up after the sanders.

[FB 539]

You need to make sure the wood is properly dried and seasoned. Let me explain. As a 15 year old I was lucky enough to have Mike Rosewell as a Rowing Coach. We were doing a 500m training piece in an 8, when he banged on the side of his launch called “Story Time” and called stop.

He then told us in great detail how the clever craftsmen and Collar & Sons (whose workshop we had just rowed passed) would select special Sitka Spruce, then have transported to the desert where it would be pointed at the sun for many months to dry with a perfect distribution of sap. Then they carefully build the oars with the perfect balance so they float at the perfect depth right the way through the stroke. Finally after about ten minutes he posed the question along the lines of “so after all this love care and attention what makes you lot skim your blades on the surface and dig them deep. Those blades know more than you so drop it in and pull”.

Mike went to the great river in the sky last year. https://heartheboatsing.com/2021/08/...-of-the-times/

[stromborg]

I use Titebond and epoxy depending on the project. One thing I like about wood glue is not having to wait a week before painting. Building some cabinets now, the face frame and doors are glue but the top is a scarphed sheet of plywood, excellent job for epoxy.

[John Meachen]

Rob, Good joinery is not less work than mixing epoxy , c’mon .

If I couldn't prepare two surfaces,the size of an oar blade edge for gluing in less time than it takes to mix a batch of epoxy I might well seek out other activities.Pigeon racing comes to mind.

[Toxophilite]

A bit of a derail. I'm still planning on building oars cause it will be fun but in the meantime some offered me these, but for $75. Barkely Sound, made of spruce. I had an 8' pair. Nice oars. Looks like they've seen a lot of weather, supposedly no rot but one blade clearly shows some separation of the laminations. I guess one could clean it out get some epoxy in there and if the other side is cupped reshape a little, or take it apart and reglue. Probably can't get the weather staining out, but they could be painted, or stained. Good backups till I get my others done. Too much?

[wizbang 13]

What kind of glue was used on those oars?

[keith66]

I would use Titebond 3, It isnt saving a nickel, Its because it lasts longer than epoxy, Oars get bashed about & epoxy has piss poor UV resistance.

[MT Rower]

I have made a set of oars using both TB III and a set using epoxy. They're holding up well, regardless of glue.

I had a similar grain issue as you with two spruce boards. I ended up ripping the the blanks in half then using one half from each board for each oar. (Similar to the diagram below.)
Culler 8 ft Spruce.jpg

On a different set of (fir) oars, the blanks crooked as soon as I ripped them out of the larger 2x6. (I was unable to find a board with straight grain for the full length of the board.) I ended up ripping them in half and gluing a 1/4" thick piece in the middle to straighten them out.
IMG_0481.jpg63467693874__23B48B0F-19A4-4317-BFFA-A4E06DC162AC.jpgIMG_0415.jpg

[jpatrick]

A bit of a derail. I'm still planning on building oars cause it will be fun but in the meantime some offered me these, but for $75. Barkely Sound, made of spruce. I had an 8' pair. Nice oars. Looks like they've seen a lot of weather, supposedly no rot but one blade clearly shows some separation of the laminations. I guess one could clean it out get some epoxy in there and if the other side is cupped reshape a little, or take it apart and reglue. Probably can't get the weather staining out, but they could be painted, or stained. Good backups till I get my others done. Too much?

The graying of the wood doesn't bother me, but the seams opening up, do. There is a fair amount of work needed on those oars just to make them serviceable. I wouldn't pay $75 for them. Maybe $25 if the looms are dead straight. (Which might be doubtful.... check them carefully.)

Jeff

[Brian Palmer]

I would say $25 too. They are not that long, either.

(If someone thinks their oars are worth $75, they could have kept them out of the weather or at least maintained the finish on them.)

[John Meachen]

I think those weathered oars are good for patterns and not that much more.

[wizbang 13]

Run a skilsaw kerf halfway through each delaminated seam and fill with 403 WEST. Do the other side tomorrow.
You will have some nice oars the next day , but you can’t do that with the other glue.

[Canoeyawl]

Find large enough pieces of wood to make them from one piece

[Toxophilite]

What kind of glue was used on those oars?

You a funny man! Barkely Sound oars, thus titebond 3. However they look like they've been left outside forever.

These are 9' oars
MT Rower, thanks for the tips, beautiful oars. I don't currently have a table saw but I'm picking up an old delta Rockwell table saw this week...after the snow dump, and after I replace the front springs on my car.319706896_8317278418345237_4015111623986024430_n.jpg

[wizbang 13]

I would use Titebond 3, It isnt saving a nickel, Its because it lasts longer than epoxy, Oars get bashed about & epoxy has piss poor UV resistance.

True that epoxy breaks down on the sun, but it would appear the Titebond 3 oars in #27 have broken down .
I have 45 year old epoxy / poly varnish oars … no delamming.
Where are your 45 year old tb3 ones?