Germany arrests

[FF]

25 RWW arrested in Germany, a serious attempt to install a prince. Frank
www.reuters.com

[Paul Pless]

Germany's Reichsbuerger: Searching for an emperor and fascinated by guns.

sounds vaguely familiar

[LeeG]

That’s weird. It’s like a virus.

Prosecutors said the group was inspired by the deep state conspiracy theories of Germany's Reichsbuerger and QAnon, whose advocates were among those arrested after the storming of the U.S. Capitol in January 2021.

[Peerie Maa]

25 RWW arrested in Germany, a serious attempt to install a prince. Frank
www.reuters.com

More info here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63885028

A taster:

The federal prosecutor's office said the group had been plotting a violent coup since November 2021 and members of its central "Rat" (council) had since held regular meetings.
They had already established plans to rule Germany with departments covering health, justice and foreign affairs, the prosecutor said. Members understood they could only realise their goals by "military means and violence against state representatives", which included carrying out killings.
Investigators are thought to have got wind of the group when they uncovered a kidnap plot last April involving a gang who called themselves United Patriots.
They too were part of the Reichsbürger scene and had allegedly planned to abduct Health Minister Karl Lauterbach while also creating "civil war conditions" to bring about an end to Germany's democracy.
A former far-right AfD member of the lower house of parliament, the Bundestag, is suspected of being part of the plot, and of being lined up as the group's justice minister. Birgit Malsack-Winkemann, who was among the 25 people arrested, returned to her role as judge last year and a court has since turned down attempts to dislodge her.

[Osborne Russell]

sounds vaguely familiar

Berlin or Phoenix, the common element: Russian support.

[Paul Pless]

Berlin or Phoenix, the common element: Russian support.

one more week of this desert then i get to move to the centrist liberal enclave that is michigan

[LeeG]

Berlin or Phoenix, the common element: Russian support.

common tangent. The common element is domestic desire for authoritarianism which is 100x more relevant than Russian support. Hyping the threat of outsiders polluting domestic purity is a common element to authoritarians.

[Osborne Russell]

one more week of this desert then i get to move to the centrist liberal enclave that is michigan

Rots o' ruck! Truly.

Out in the woods, keep your eyes peeled for the Governor flitting between the trees in her PJ's, escaping her kidnappers.

[Osborne Russell]

common tangent. The common element is domestic desire for authoritarianism which is 100x more relevant than Russian support. Hyping the threat of outsiders polluting domestic purity is a common element to authoritarians.

Polluting domestic purity? OMG

No hype, yo. See Russian sponsorship of the [American] National Rifle Association.

NRA Was 'Foreign Asset' To Russia Ahead of 2016, New Senate Report Reveals

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/76487...report-reveals

[Gerarddm]

My point of view is that governments really need to crack down and break these native populist movements. Really throw the book at them when convicted. And definitely subject them to re-programming in the process.

[LeeG]

Polluting domestic purity? OMG

]

Hey, xenophobia and racism isn’t supposed to be pretty.

[Ted Hoppe]

These armed folks are concerning.

This is the eternal question; in a true democracy in a time of social change- does one group in control of a government have the right to crack down on others free speech and assembly rights? Democracy by it is definition is messy. Silencing a powerful, dangerous minority has its drawbacks.

[TomF]

That is indeed the eternal question about Democracy.

It's not unlike the eternal question about Free Markets - should one have complete unregulated "Laissez-Faire," with all of the history-proven opportunities both for the accumulation of wealth and for negative impacts on labor, the environment, consumer safety etc.? Or should there be some form of regulated free markets, protecting capitalism from some of its inherent risks by imposing a different risk if overdone?

I'm for regulated free-markets, myself. And similarly, I'm for analogous "regulation" in the political life of Democracies. Which yeah, requires political parties and movements to subscribe to shared tenets like the nation's Constitution, the rejection of foreign influence (and money) in domestic policy/races, etc.

When Germany discovers a group mounting an actual threat of a coup, despite being a Democracy, Germany's right to step in. Because the group is rejecting the fundamentals of Germany's Democracy.

Same where I live. And where you do.

[Peerie Maa]

These armed folks are concerning.

This is the eternal question; in a true democracy in a time of social change- does one group in control of a government have the right to crack down on others free speech and assembly rights? Democracy by it is definition is messy. Silencing a powerful, dangerous minority has its drawbacks.

Who has been doing that then?

In this case, the German equivalent of conspiracy will go to trial.
The preliminary reports are that there is a conspiracy to start an armed insurrection, carry out criminal damage and murder.
Law enforcement has a duty to deal with such crimes, which are not free speech nor assembly.

[Ted Hoppe]

Who has been doing that then?

In this case, the German equivalent of conspiracy will go to trial.
The preliminary reports are that there is a conspiracy to start an armed insurrection, carry out criminal damage and murder.
Law enforcement has a duty to deal with such crimes, which are not free speech nor assembly.

Who watches the watchmen?

I note in all our fragile democracies and democratic republics, a small wealthy minorities already pull the levers of power, dominate elections, control the law enforcement and military for the benefit of the protection of their wealth and maintaining the legitimate control of government. The general idea that the majority gets the governance that is most beneficial to them is often not the case proving the fallacy of one man one vote power. Would we ever consider arresting them and putting them on trial for their use of soft and hard political power - i think not.

I will point out in the US, none of the billionaires and millionaires involved in the 2020 insurrection have been brought up on charges.

[leikec]

one more week of this desert then i get to move to the centrist liberal enclave that is michigan

Great news! Just in time for snow. What town?

Jeff C

[sandtown]

No hype, yo. See Russian sponsorship of the [American] National Rifle Association.

You can tell they are not real commies because . .

they cannot spell "comrade".

Jeebus

[TomF]

Great news! Just in time for snow. What town?

Jeff C

This time, won't be like a bat out of ...

[Peerie Maa]

Who watches the watchmen?

In the US, I am guessing it's the FBI. I could well be wrong ion that, and I don't know how effective they are.
In the UK, practically every arm of government has its "Watchman", independent authorities to whom dubious practices are referred.

Your sweeping generalisations are just that, sweeping generalisations.

[Peerie Maa]

You can tell they are not real commies because . .

they cannot spell "comrade".

Jeebus

Is that like claiming that the French have no word for "entrepreneur"?

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Didn't you just relocate FROM Michigan?

one more week of this desert then i get to move to the centrist liberal enclave that is michigan

[Paul Pless]

Great news! Just in time for snow. What town?

Jeff C

grand rapids

the snowy side of the state

[TomF]

Is that like claiming that the French have no word for "entrepreneur"?

Steve Martin was wrong. It's not like they have a different word for everything. (although oddly, they do )

[Ted Hoppe]

In the US, I am guessing it's the FBI. I could well be wrong ion that, and I don't know how effective they are.
In the UK, practically every arm of government has its "Watchman", independent authorities to whom dubious practices are referred.

Your sweeping generalisations are just that, sweeping generalisations.

So says a citizen whose country recognizes a government that has a king as figure head and a ruling body of designated House of Lords. Some would successfully argue it is the same political authority that the German right wingers were seeking to install but now are arrested for.

[TomF]

grand rapids

the snowy side of the state

If the drop was a bit bigger, you could have lived in (Grand Falls) New Brunswick.

[Peerie Maa]

Steve Martin was wrong. It's not like they have a different word for everything. (although oddly, they do )

I was thinking of the quote wrongly attributed to Shrub.

[George Jung]

Needs a thread, PP.

[TomF]

So says a citizen who country recognizes a government that has a king and a ruling body of designated lords. Some would successfully argue, the same political authority that the German right wingers were seeking to install.

They might argue it successfully, but it would be a bit of an indictment of the people having either side of that argument.

Do we really need to hash out again how Constitutional Monarchies like the UK (and Canada) actually function?

[TomF]

I was thinking of the quote wrongly attributed to Shrub.

I think it was Steve Martin's character in "L.A. Story."

[Peerie Maa]

I think it was Steve Martin's character in "L.A. Story."

Perhaps he stole the line from Shirley Williams, who Snopes claims misattributed the line.
Dunno as I have not seen L A Story.

[TomF]

Perhaps he stole the line from Shirley Williams, who Snopes claims misattributed the line.
Dunno as I have not seen L A Story.

Martin's got a few memorable lines in that one - his magnificent order of a latte ... his question to a lover while in bed why her breasts felt so weird ("That's because they're real.")

[Henning 4148]

grand rapids

the snowy side of the state

Has Katherine got a job at Amway? Just joking ... Bissell? GE Aviation?

[Ted Hoppe]

They might argue it successfully, but it would be a bit of an indictment of the people having either side of that argument.

Do we really need to hash out again how Constitutional Monarchies like the UK (and Canada) actually function?

No but we can look historically how they were installed.

[TomF]

Sure. The "weak" monarchical powers of the Westminster Parliamentary version of Constitutional Monarchy date to 1689. Which essentially confirmed that Parliament is supreme, and within it, the elected House of Commons.

That is, while the United States is clearly the oldest continuous democracy with the form of a Constitutional Republic, the oldest continuous democracy with the form of a Constitutional Monarchy is older.

It's crucial to observe that the way the British conducted self-rule at this point (the height of the British Empire) was markedly different from the way they administered their colonies. None of which had fully democratic self-rule, though there were some tips of the hat towards it for some sectors of government.

America fought a Revolution to gain full democratic self-rule, setting up a Republic. Other British Colonies gradually spun off into full independence over the next 150-200 years, sometimes with violence involved (India etc.), other times without (Canada, New Zealand etc.)

Is that what you meant?

[lupussonic]

There are many many people here in Germany that are deeply dissatisfied with the post war Republik, I hear from people who attend seminars on the false constitution and general lack of freedoms. There is also a simmering wish to indulge in being proud of being German, a sentiment that has been denied an entire nation for a very long time; I think these organisations are symptom of that.