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Thread: blackhawk replacement

  1. #1
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    Default blackhawk replacement

    the bell v 280 "valor"

    bell-v280.jpg

    beat out the sb1 "defiant"

    SB1-defiant-prototype-1800.jpg
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Which one is simpler, and which cooler?

    Explain.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    A tail-dragger chopper! long time no see.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    One does begin to wonder how the battlefield balance will go as drones become more capable and autonomous, and piloted aircraft (helicopters and fixed wing) ever more breathtakingly expensive.

    Ukraine's effective use of drones against the Russian navy, and their recent effective use of drones against Russian aircraft on the ground in fairly distant airfields gives one increasing pause.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    Which one is simpler, and which cooler?

    Explain.
    The Defiant looks cooler but no idea about simpler when it comes to helicopters. Where is BrianW?

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Saw a V-22 Osprey fly overhead yesterday, in fact. Like that Bell v280. Kinda cool, distinctive sound. I also thought how vulnerable it must be to ground fire.

    Drones are the waves of the future, on land, sea, and in the air. Bolos will be coming soon, mark my words.
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Primary purpose is surely to look good enough to extract loadsa money from the government?

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    The tilt-rotor Osprey has such a wonderful record, why not try for two fiascos.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Primary purpose is surely to look good enough to extract loadsa money from the government?
    The unit cost of the V22 is $80,000,000. The new one has got to be $100M +
    ITS CHAOS, BE KIND

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    The unit cost of the V22 is $80,000,000. The new one has got to be $100M +
    Some admittedly light digging on the web revealed frustratingly little, estimates ranged from $20-43million per unit. Which sounds surprisingly low. Considering this project has been running since 2013 I'm sure there are billions in R&D costs that aren't accounted for in that number. I also wonder what something like this costs to operate?
    Steve

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Saw a V-22 Osprey fly overhead yesterday, in fact. Like that Bell v280. Kinda cool, distinctive sound. I also thought how vulnerable it must be to ground fire.
    And how vulnerable it is to itself. They don't have a good track record.

    And they dislike dust intensely, or at least their turbines do. And taking off and landing vertically tends to generate a lot of dust. https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the...d-df1b1b5528c5
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    One does begin to wonder how the battlefield balance will go as drones become more capable and autonomous, and piloted aircraft (helicopters and fixed wing) ever more breathtakingly expensive.

    Ukraine's effective use of drones against the Russian navy, and their recent effective use of drones against Russian aircraft on the ground in fairly distant airfields gives one increasing pause.
    This might go towards answering those questions.



    IRRC from watching the video a couple of weeks ago, aircraft where crew are optional, a drone-like full sized helicopter that's capable of evacuating personnel from behind lines, without risking additional lives to go and get them, are some of the options being looked into.
    'When I leave I don't know what I'm hoping to find. When I leave I don't know what I'm leaving behind...'

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    The tilt-rotor Osprey has such a wonderful record, why not try for two fiascos.
    There’s a good book on its development and how it survived multiple attempts to kill it.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Wonderful machines.

    For killing, maiming, and tearing lives apart.

    I really wish this forum (and people in general) could get past their boyish pornographic obsessions and see the MIC for what it is.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Saw a V-22 Osprey fly overhead yesterday, in fact. .
    One of my sailing buddy's kids used to fly those - terrified his dad.

    Those things are death traps.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by sandtown View Post
    One of my sailing buddy's kids used to fly those - terrified his dad.

    Those things are death traps.
    Just guessing uparmored Humvees are more dangerous. It’s reputation is stained by the first run of costly problems and it does have unique maintainence demands but if you throw enough money at it it should be in service for a long time.


    Looks like MV-22 production ends next year.

    https://www.realcleardefense.com/202...ng_826483.html
    Last edited by LeeG; 12-06-2022 at 08:11 PM.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    There’s a good book on its development and how it survived multiple attempts to kill it.
    Read one about 10 years ago. It's not longer on my Kindle App, and I forget the title. It started back in the 1950's if I recall, follows the political/MIC path for a long time, then finally covers the development and accidents. A surprising number of of the accidents were not the fault of the aircraft.

    The process made the Marines hold on to the CH-46's (Phrog) and the twin engine CH-53's (twin engine version) much longer than planned. Both the Marines and the Air Force moved the airframe into different missions until the square peg was able to be pounded into the round hole.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    A tail-dragger chopper! long time no see.
    Thinking of the most popular models in Europe I agree with you. But in the USA military, they are still pretty popular.


    Blackhawk. This one was in the 'Blackhawk Down' battle in Mogadishu.
    IMG_3243.jpg


    Apache in Jbad Afghanistan
    apacheteeth.jpg
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    the bell v 280 "valor"

    bell-v280.jpg

    beat out the sb1 "defiant"

    SB1-defiant-prototype-1800.jpg
    My guess is the Valor is simpler. Only two props/rotors compared to three on the Defiant. Just looking at the Defiant, I estimate at least 30 minutes of removing cowling before doing any actual maintenance. There's no obvious place to stand around the main rotor system to work from, so they'll need maintenance stands, which are hard to get, then hard to move on a gravel HLC.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    I've got an old book, Pioneering The Helicopter, telling how Igor Sikorski developed his first helicopter., which led to the H-4. The Valor obviously cannot "autorotate" to a successful landing if one engine is shot out in combat as like the Defiant can.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Brian, is there some kind of system that prevents ground dirt from getting sucked into engines? It looks likes like the V280 doesn’t have downward firing exhaust so that must reduce debris somewhat. Is there some kind of wear indicator that tells a mechanic a turbine just sucked down too much sand and needs a rebuild?

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Every time I hear of a new (GAH)-zillion dollar toy, I think of Richard Schiff in "The Pentagon Wars". For anyone ever involved in development and procurement, it's a zinger!

  23. #23
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Brian, is there some kind of system that prevents ground dirt from getting sucked into engines? It looks likes like the V280 doesn’t have downward firing exhaust so that must reduce debris somewhat. Is there some kind of wear indicator that tells a mechanic a turbine just sucked down too much sand and needs a rebuild?
    There are inlet particle separation systems (IPS) for most helicopters. They are often designed after the helicopter is in production and there are even aftermarket versions to fit older helicopters.

    One sign that the engine is having issues is reduced performance, the pilots do power checks periodically and will let me know. Also inspecting the first few rows of compressor blades visually, or the later stages via small opening using a borescope.

    While looking for pictures, I found this great .pdf on the topic that shows the basic design, damage images from dirt, and various versions on helicopters. Says it all much better than I can.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/SCWwQmMRga98CPAw9

    Clicking on 'Visit' will start a .pdf download. If was safe on my computer.
    Last edited by BrianW; 12-07-2022 at 08:52 PM.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


  24. #24
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    ^those pics of iced up turbine intakes looked scary
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    My guess is the Valor is simpler. Only two props/rotors compared to three on the Defiant. Just looking at the Defiant, I estimate at least 30 minutes of removing cowling before doing any actual maintenance. There's no obvious place to stand around the main rotor system to work from, so they'll need maintenance stands, which are hard to get, then hard to move on a gravel HLC.
    The other thing that I was thinking of is that the Valor likely has a bit more speed and range than the Defiant - or does that pusher prop make it work more like an autogyro?. I also wouldn't want to try to balance those two rotors - thinking of the KH-52's that the Russians have.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    thx Brian, vortex generator, that’s it.

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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    The other thing that I was thinking of is that the Valor likely has a bit more speed and range than the Defiant - or does that pusher prop make it work more like an autogyro?. I also wouldn't want to try to balance those two rotors - thinking of the KH-52's that the Russians have.
    Quite a bit faster from what I'm reading. I didn't pay much attention to the Valor until now, and am trying to learn more about it.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    thx Brian, vortex generator, that’s it.
    Yep, a bunch of little vortex generators depending on the size of the engine. At least that's the basic go to system for aftermarket companies. Considerations that need to made before installing them include the percentage of engine performance lost due to air flow restrictions and the fact some of them use bleed air from the engines to flush the dirt out of the inlets, which also robs power. Then there's the weight they add, and any possible airspeed limits imposed.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


  29. #29
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    ^those pics of iced up turbine intakes looked scary
    Yeah!

    All the systems include bypass doors allowing unfiltered air to enter the inlet just for reasons like that.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Quite a bit faster from what I'm reading. I didn't pay much attention to the Valor until now, and am trying to learn more about it.
    Love to hear more about what you think when you read more.

    I used to know a few guys from college that were at Sikorsky, but haven't talked to them in a bit.
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Some engines have built in IPS systems, such as the GE T700/400 series used on Blackhawks, Apaches, S92's, etc. As the air enters the engine it flows past swirl vanes that direct the airflow in a clockwise direction (as seen from the rear of the engine, which is the standard for GE engine "o'clock" positions) and the air travels in a large circular flow and all the particles are forced to the outside portion of that flow. The contaminated air along the outside of the flow travels up a passage to the IPS blower, while the good air continues into the engine, running past the deswirl vanes, and into the compressor. So far, no moving parts, nice and simple. Here's a drawing...

    Screenshot 2022-12-07 at 6.10.49 PM.jpg

    In this picture of a T700 the yellow arrow is pointing to the 'scroll' which is where the contaminated air is traveling up into the IPS blower (red arrow). The IPS blower is shaft driven and is nothing more than a high speed fan blowing the contaminated air to the rear, thru some ducting (not shown), and outside the helicopter.

    Screenshot 2022-12-07 at 6.27.47 PM.jpg
    Last edited by BrianW; 12-07-2022 at 10:42 PM.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


  32. #32
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Wonderful machines.

    For killing, maiming, and tearing lives apart.

    I really wish this forum (and people in general) could get past their boyish pornographic obsessions and see the MIC for what it is.
    I had this conversation the other day about the new stealth bomber. I asked why we needed it when we have drones that can deliver a weapons payload anywhere. Never did get an answer.

    The Ukraine has also had great luck with off the shelf commercial drones being used to drop grenades on ground troops in their holes.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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  33. #33
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Wonderful machines.

    For killing, maiming, and tearing lives apart.

    I really wish this forum (and people in general) could get past their boyish pornographic obsessions and see the MIC for what it is.
    Boy, Howdy!

  34. #34
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    Someone once described a helicopter as "several tons of machinery trying desperately to shake itself apart". Tilt rotors seem like they might accomplish that rather quickly.
    Last edited by Nicholas Scheuer; 12-08-2022 at 12:52 PM.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: blackhawk replacement

    ^ "a random collection of parts flying in a close formation"
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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