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Thread: will hydrogen be the way forward

  1. #1
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    Default will hydrogen be the way forward

    for motorsports and enthusiasts of the internal combustion engine?
    hydrogen fuels hotrods?
    hydrogen fueled motorbikes?
    hydrogen fueled vintage sports and racing cars?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Oh yess it will!
    Don't worry I'm happy

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    no.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    I think that energy consumption, like energy production, will be diverse.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    No.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Hard to see it happening since the energy density is quite low.It does keep CO2 and NOx emissions out of the atmosphere but water vapour is quite a problem as a greenhouse gas and the energy cost of isolating the hydrogen isn't trivial.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    I doubt it. Hydrogen just about works in a fuel cell, but when you burn it in internal combustion, the efficiencies just aren't there (fuel cell efficiency c. 60%, hydrogen IC, c.30%).

    So, you need way more of it, which needs storing, not so easy because of the bulkiness of the high-pressure tanks.

    I think enthusiasts of classic vehicles will have to run fully-synthetic current carbon cycle fuels, or convert to electric powertrains, which will involve much less work to convert the vehicles to run on, but will make even current high gas prices seem like a bargain.

    I also think that it's only going to be a conversation for classics enthusiasts, because there just wont be any new IC powered mass production motorbikes or sports cars.

    I'm not sure what the timeframe is on these predictions, but probably 15 to 20 years.
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Saw this weird hydrogen super car at the LA auto show

    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Hard to see it happening since the energy density is quite low.It does keep CO2 and NOx emissions out of the atmosphere but water vapour is quite a problem as a greenhouse gas and the energy cost of isolating the hydrogen isn't trivial.
    Actually, another problem with burning hydrogen is that it's not that clean, unless you also carry a supply of pure oxygen to make sure you don't put out oxides of nitrogen. This isn't a problem with low-temperature fuel cells, but burning hydrogen in air produces enough heat to convert the nitrogen in the air into NOx.
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward


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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by AnalogKid View Post
    This isn't a problem with low-temperature fuel cells, but burning hydrogen in air produces enough heat to convert the nitrogen in the air into NOx.
    And that's no laughing matter!
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    In my industry we have started to talk of “green” hydrogen, made by electrolysis of water using wind or solar electricity (and correspondingly expensive) and “blue” hydrogen made by stripping carbon from methane (this should really be called brown hydrogen!). There is of course no way to tell t’other from which, so everyone is going to cheat.

    Low energy density, almost impossible to prevent leaks… and the NOx problem…
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    No - hydrogen is hard to control and store. A storage tank might not be a good idea in a populated area
    Without friends none of this is possible.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    no.
    Hyundai have a big billboard on the side of the motorway leading into Auckland that is advertising Hydrogen fuelled trucks.

    They're also introducing cars with the same fuel.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Saw an article concerning wind generation in SD - and that it now provides more electricity than any other source - but is complemented (for still, cloudy days) with solar, coal, NG, and nuclear. Their comment was - they're producing about twice as much as they consume, and have no current prospects for battery storage - and so are converting it to pump water back 'upstream' of power generating dams. A 'battery' of sorts. At one time, a group also looked at using 'excess' electricity for hydrogen fuel cells. Don't believe that one got off the drawing board.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    It's the smallest molecule. Period. Periodically. By definition. H2.

    Really hard to contain. It leaks out of nearly anything. It's The Cat Who Walks Through Walls.

    There's absolutely no problem with adapting it to engines. Easy. Piece of cake. The problem is storage.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    It is a mixed bag, but public transport is still on board, mostly.
    In January 2022, the city of Montpellier, France, cancelled a contract to procure 51 buses powered by hydrogen fuel cells, when it found that "the cost of operation for hydrogen [buses] is 6 times the cost of electricity".[71][72] The city ordered battery electric buses instead.[72]
    In May 2022, Regionalverkehr K÷ln [de], the public transport operator for Cologne, Germany ordered up to 100 hydrogen fuel cell buses from Solaris and WrightBus.[73] This followed the announcement of the 'National Hydrogen Strategy' in Germany, which made clear that hydrogen fuel cell buses were a feasible alternative for long distance routes.[74] Mercedes-Benz announced that their popular eCitaro bus would be made available with a range extender using a Toyota hydrogen fuel cell. This would increase the range of the bus to 400 kilometres (250 mi).[75][76]
    In July 2022, ╬le-de-France MobilitÚs (IDFM) ordered 47 fuel cell buses for the Grand Paris region in France at a cost of €48m. Green hydrogen will be used, with the hydrogen produced at an incinerator in Creteil.[77] The managing director of IDFM stated that they wished to send a signal with their first order that bus manufacturers should "improve the technology, bring it to maturity, produce it [commercially] and we will be there".[78]
    In July 2022, over five hundred Foton AUV buses joined the Beijing Public Transport Group. Media reported that the buses have a range of around 600km, and can be refilled in around 10 to 15 minutes.[79] These buses had previously been used at the Beijing 2022 Winter Olympics.[79]
    In August 2022, India's first domestically developed hydrogen fuel bus was unveiled in Pune. The bus was developed by KPIT Technologies and the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research.[80][81]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_bus

    But as ACB says, the power to make the hydrogen must be green and cheap, or there is little point.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    ^ Not the same thing Nick. Fuel cells make a bit more sense - but they're not a fuel replacement technology but a battery replacement technology. The make sense for long range or fast refuelling, but for most applications, a battery will do the same job for less cost and better efficiency, if a little more weight.

    Paul's talking about burning hydrogen in internal combustion engines as a way to continue making brum-brum noises with reduced (but not eliminated) emissions.
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    I will say yes. Although I don’t think it will be in the next ten or so years. Hydrogen storage is one issue - storage as solid hydrides is an emerging technology that looks interesting. Fuel cell efficiency needs to grow to be effective. The other major issue is the method of hydrogen generation at scale without carbon-sourced power being used.

    These things will need to be successful for us to be able to implement a post-carbon fuel future.
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Oh, the Humanity

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    There is serious consideration of Green Hydrogen in Aus using solar arrays to supply the power.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    recreational motorsports will continue as is, fuel costs will reduce use by those who can’t afford it and somewhat irrelevant to those who can. I expect the folks who travel to events by vehicle will be more affected.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    recreational motorsports will continue as is, fuel costs will reduce use by those who can’t afford it and somewhat irrelevant to those who can. I expect the folks who travel to events by vehicle will be more affected.

    porsche is currently building a $75million dollar bio fuel plant in argentina specifically to produce fuel for motorsports and vintage porsches
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 12-05-2022 at 03:45 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    porsche is currently building a $75billion dollar bio fuel plant in argentina specifically to produce fuel for motorsports and vintage porsches
    more alcohol? How about methanol!

    er, $75 million

    https://advancedbiofuelsusa.info/por...fuel-start-up/


    porsche market capitalization $9 billion
    Last edited by LeeG; 12-05-2022 at 03:10 PM.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    No - hydrogen is hard to control and store. A storage tank might not be a good idea in a populated area
    So why not shove it into a large gas bag and let it float overhead?

    Andy
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Hard to see it happening since the energy density is quite low.It does keep CO2 and NOx emissions out of the atmosphere but water vapour is quite a problem as a greenhouse gas and the energy cost of isolating the hydrogen isn't trivial.
    Water vapor will remain a huge problem, due to the oceans on the planet. It's pouring into the atmosphere, with nothing to stop it other than rain and snow.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    interesting concern. Obviously, 'ocean-based' water vapor has been around... functionally, 'forever' - but undoubtedly has changed over millenia, likely influenced by global temps. What effect does AGW have on watervapor, either from CO2 or temp changes? Seems the only part of the equation we might influence is.... CO2, methane etc.

    Correct? Or not?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    interesting concern. Obviously, 'ocean-based' water vapor has been around... functionally, 'forever' - but undoubtedly has changed over millenia, likely influenced by global temps. What effect does AGW have on watervapor, either from CO2 or temp changes? Seems the only part of the equation we might influence is.... CO2, methane etc.

    Correct? Or not?
    There are "atmospheric rivers" that form - mechanism is still being worked on to be fully understood, but it can cause extreme weather events - drought in some places, flooding in others. It is driven by these gasses. The impact of CO2 is a bit outsized as it is about 412 PPM and methane is only 1.98 PPM. However, methane has a warming effect about 80x that of CO2. As the climate worms, places where there was permafrost thaw releasing CO2 and more importantly, methane in ever larger amounts, which becomes a viscous cycle.

    Very much pilot research, but there are facilities that are doing carbon capture in the form of atmospheric CO2 for use in creating hydrocarbon fuels, so reversing the cycle. In one location the plant was powered by geothermal energy, in another it was solar. I don't know if there is a process for capture of methane for similar use, but I don't think the atmospheric concentration is significant enough to be useful.
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    The warming of the Pacific Ocean and subsequent changes in air flow as the Australian continent hots up brings warm wet air on shore and dumps water in large amounts on the east coast. Add tropical air from the north and you get floods. The same systems will also bring drought again soon enough.
    Hydrogen fuel may suit busses and trucks but safe storage and carriage will likely not make it suitable for said 'brmm-brmm' purposes of private cars.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Hydrogen fuel may suit busses and trucks but safe storage and carriage will likely not make it suitable for said 'brmm-brmm' purposes of private cars.
    Back in the '60s my uncle used to convert his cars to run on Calorgas. I am sure that if the Brrm Brmm fraternity want to use hydrogen in an infernal confusion engine, they will figure out a way. Meanwhile, with an electrical distribution infrastructure being built, we have the solution for private cars and small commercial vehicles, possibly for mass transport and larger lorries.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    The warming of the Pacific Ocean and subsequent changes in air flow as the Australian continent hots up brings warm wet air on shore and dumps water in large amounts on the east coast. Add tropical air from the north and you get floods. The same systems will also bring drought again soon enough.
    Hydrogen fuel may suit busses and trucks but safe storage and carriage will likely not make it suitable for said 'brmm-brmm' purposes of private cars.
    Aren’t Hyundai and Toyota releasing hydrogen powered vehicles in Australia and New Zealand?
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Yes, but again (so far) only hydrogen fuel cell cars, not hydrogen-powered IC. There's a big difference.

    Fuel cells use the chemical reaction of oxidising the hydrogen into water at low temperature to generate electricity to drive a motor. Literally a cell (battery) that uses fuel.

    The OP is about using hydrogen to burn in an internal combustion process, using the expansion to mechanically drive the vehicle, no electricity (beyond a regular spark plug) involved.

    Here's a bit of detail why hydrogen combustion is daft (apart from not being very clean, and being very wasteful of hydrogen)...

    BMW produced a bi-fuel 760 sedan for a couple of years. It had a regular petrol/gasoline tank of 73.8 litres capacity, enough to allow it to drive for 480 Km / 300 miles. It also has a cryogenic liquid hydrogen tank capable of holding 8Kg of hydrogen, enough for 200 Km / 125 miles. The volume of that cryogenic tank (i.e. the space it takes up n the car, because of all the insulation required) is 170 litres.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

    So if petrolheads / motorsports people want to carry on burning fuel and fossil fuels are either exhausted or banned, then synthetic bio-fuels would be a far better proposition than burning hydrogen. If they give up burning stuff and are just worried about going fast, then fuel cells are an option, but battery-electric will almost certainly be easier / cheaper. There's probably a sweet spot for power, range and weight where fuel cells will offer an advantage, but given that it's trucks and buses that are the first commercially viable fuel cell vehicles, I'm not sure that sweet spot falls within the usual motorsport parameters.
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by AnalogKid View Post
    Yes, but again (so far) only hydrogen fuel cell cars, not hydrogen-powered IC. There's a big difference.

    Fuel cells use the chemical reaction of oxidising the hydrogen into water at low temperature to generate electricity to drive a motor. Literally a cell (battery) that uses fuel.

    The OP is about using hydrogen to burn in an internal combustion process, using the expansion to mechanically drive the vehicle, no electricity (beyond a regular spark plug) involved.

    Here's a bit of detail why hydrogen combustion is daft (apart from not being very clean, and being very wasteful of hydrogen)...

    BMW produced a bi-fuel 760 sedan for a couple of years. It had a regular petrol/gasoline tank of 73.8 litres capacity, enough to allow it to drive for 480 Km / 300 miles. It also has a cryogenic liquid hydrogen tank capable of holding 8Kg of hydrogen, enough for 200 Km / 125 miles. The volume of that cryogenic tank (i.e. the space it takes up n the car, because of all the insulation required) is 170 litres.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7

    So if petrolheads / motorsports people want to carry on burning fuel and fossil fuels are either exhausted or banned, then synthetic bio-fuels would be a far better proposition than burning hydrogen. If they give up burning stuff and are just worried about going fast, then fuel cells are an option, but battery-electric will almost certainly be easier / cheaper. There's probably a sweet spot for power, range and weight where fuel cells will offer an advantage, but given that it's trucks and buses that are the first commercially viable fuel cell vehicles, I'm not sure that sweet spot falls within the usual motorsport parameters.
    I can see the enthusiasts being fans of the fuel cell - How about this 690 HP version?

    https://www.autoweek.com/news/a41134...concept-drive/
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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    for motorsports and enthusiasts of the internal combustion engine?
    hydrogen fuels hotrods?
    hydrogen fueled motorbikes?
    hydrogen fueled vintage sports and racing cars?
    No. They will go to where a lot of them already are, methanol and ethanol. The change involves some plastic/rubber components in contact with the fuel and rejetting or software adjustments. Some purists will buy synthetic gasoline. Diesel will go methanol also, there will be conversion kits available.

    The above will also apply to recreational boating and professional shipping. The change has already begun, most new ships are ordered methanol or ammonia ready.

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    Default Re: will hydrogen be the way forward

    I used to think so, not so much any more.

    Hydrogen go boom, after all.
    Gerard>
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