EVs and cold weather

[Dan McCosh]

One tactic is to put a small plug-in electric heater in your EV and start it a while before you leave.

A warm interior takes much less battery power to maintain a comfortable temperature.

The GM household starting system runs the car heater on household current in the morning, warming the interior before you leave. Dunno about others.

[Dan McCosh]

Yea but its not the original 40% people were saying it's not even the 20% the 17.4% is like the max in extremely rare sub 0 deg cold days. It's more like 15%

Another interesting way of comparing is looking at MPG equivalence. 1 ga of gas = 33.7 KWH or so a 2,000 mile drive.
In the summer took the equivalent of 16.6 gallons of gas for the EV to drive the same 2,000 miles.
In the freezing winter it took the equivalent of 20 gallons of gas for the EV drive the same 2,000 miles.

MPGe ( 1ga = 33.7 kWh )
Summer - 118 MPGe
Winter - 100 MPGe

It seems that the laws of physics would indicate an EV in the freezing cold is still WAY more efficient than an ICE car.

Now we all know that ICE cars don't need to expend energy to heat the car. They literally have little explosions producing surplus heat but what about in the summer running the AC off the AC motor and belts they might be even less efficient.

Dunno what law of physics you refer to--might start with thermodynamics.

[Boatbum]

Dunno what law of physics you refer to--might start with thermodynamics.

The guy in the video uses bad science to support his thesis. His 100MPG is based on EPA figures which are generally considered to be about 300% overinflated. A more realistic figure would have been 38 MPG. His 20% loss was derived by comparing his worst summer drive to his worst winter drive instead of averaging his data. The guy is cherry picking data. Like they say about climate change- "listen to the science". If you do, battery capacity takes about a 40% hit in very cold driving conditions. Not taking a shot at the EV industry - it is still the best alternative to fossil fuel but I am being realistic.

[Joe (SoCal)]

Ive never had a car get 38 mpg
His formulas seemed pretty on point, hey but what to I know I live in SoCal where it's a chilly 60 deg F this morning

[Ted Hoppe]

You could bring a ski bunny and not worry about getting home.

Screen Shot 2022-12-05 at 1.28.34 PM.jpg

https://youtube.com/shorts/_9fqApTPBCs?feature=share

[Joe (SoCal)]

Renee is an excellent snow boarder as well as obviously looking good in BIKINI

[Boatbum]

Ive never had a car get 38 mpg duirng the Carter fuel crisis
His formulas seemed pretty on point, hey but what to I know I live in SoCal where it's a chilly 60 deg F this morning

In the 1980's my dad bought a VW Rabbit diesel during the Carter fuel crisis. He consistently got 50-54 MPG from that thing. 40 years ago. Milage was no worse in cold weather though he did have to use additive when it got below 15 degrees or it would wax up in the fuel line

[Dan McCosh]

RE: the OP. A small electric heater would draw about 1500 watts of current, which would mean about nine kWh hours for a Tesla 3, which has a 75 kWh battery. That means it would cut the range about 10%, plus the loss of power from the battery, which I'm guessing would degrade some 10% in extremely cold weather. It's significant, but you would probably be OK getting home from skiing.

[Too Little Time]

Ive never had a car get 38 mpg.

My wife's Honda Accord gets over 37 around town. And well over 40 on the highway. Perhaps you had different criteria before getting your Tesla.

Some fellow posted a graph of his Tesla watts/mile v temp. There was a lot of scatter. Temp is not the only - perhaps not the primary, factor in range.

[Joe (SoCal)]

My wife's Honda Accord gets over 37 around town. And well over 40 on the highway. Perhaps you had different criteria before getting your Tesla.

Some fellow posted a graph of his Tesla watts/mile v temp. There was a lot of scatter. Temp is not the only - perhaps not the primary, factor in range.

My 2018 Jeep Compass got less than 22 MPG
MY 2019 Ford Transit Connect got less than 20 MPG

My Tesla is the only car that gets better MPG every time a new over the air software becomes available, and gets approximately 150 MPG

[MushCreek]

I had a VW diesel Rabbit that got 50 MPG, but it was SLOW. The little clown car we rented in Spain seemed to get amazing gas mileage, but I never did try to figure it out, because I would have had to convert litres/kilometer, and the thing didn't seem to have an actual fuel gauge that I could find.

[Dan McCosh]

My 2018 Jeep Compass got less than 22 MPG
MY 2019 Ford Transit Connect got less than 20 MPG

My Tesla is the only car that gets better MPG every time a new over the air software becomes available, and gets approximately 150 MPG

150 mpg of what?

[Boatbum]

150 mpg of what?

You make a good point. The MPGE rating system is highly flawed and in the end says nothing of a practical nature. It is a flawed attempt to compare EV's to gas powered cars based on the wattage equivalent of a gallon of gasoline.

[Paul Pless]

150 mpg of what?

<snort>

[LeeG]

I had a VW diesel Rabbit that got 50 MPG, but it was SLOW. The little clown car we rented in Spain seemed to get amazing gas mileage, but I never did try to figure it out, because I would have had to convert litres/kilometer, and the thing didn't seem to have an actual fuel gauge that I could find.

I drove a ‘80’s turbo iesel Jetta once, you could really feel all 74 hp come on at 2500 rpm.

[LeeG]

My 2018 Jeep Compass got less than 22 MPG
MY 2019 Ford Transit Connect got less than 20 MPG

My Tesla is the only car that gets better MPG every time a new over the air software becomes available, and gets approximately 150 MPG

I do not get why they didn’t make a hybrid out of the Transit Connect.

[Too Little Time]

My 2018 Jeep Compass got less than 22 MPG
MY 2019 Ford Transit Connect got less than 20 MPG

Are you proud or embarrassed?

[NickW]

Ive never had a car get 38 mpg
His formulas seemed pretty on point, hey but what to I know I live in SoCal where it's a chilly 60 deg F this morning

Well, our little Hyundai i10 with a 1.2 litre 4 cylinder petrol engine does just over 40 mpg around town and between 50-55 mpg on a run depending on how fast we go. Staying below 60 mph it's nearer the 55 mpg figure. These are imperial gallons so converting to US gallons gives 37 and 46 mpg respectively.

Nick

[Joe (SoCal)]

Are you proud or embarrassed?

Nah obviously I'm happy that my Tesla car note is less than my monthly fuel cost was with the Jeep

[Boatbum]

Nah obviously I'm happy that my Tesla car note is less than my monthly fuel cost was with the Jeep

Don't forget to factor in the extra purchase price (15%-20%), electric bill and/or charges at the station.

[Boatbum]

Nah obviously I'm happy that my Tesla car note is less than my monthly fuel cost was with the Jeep

OK so I just thought about what you said a little more. Exactly how much was you monthly fuel bill that it is costing more than a monthly car payment?

The average monthly car payment is currently $667/Month (I'll bet it is higher for EV's since the sticker price is a little higher). Average fuel cost (currently) in southern California is about $5.00 per gallon but half that when you last had your Jeep. That monthly car payment would buy you around 250 gallons of fuel a month. That translates into 5,000 miles a month since your Jeep gets 22MPG. I realize that everyone drives in So Cal, but that is a lot of driving. Either that or your Tesla car payment is super low.

[Paul Pless]

its been a long time since gasoline was $2.50 per gallon any where in california

[Boatbum]

its been a long time since gasoline was $2.50 per gallon any where in california

Ok so it was $3.19 in SO Cal in 2019 when he got his Jeep - assuming he bought new. That still comes out to 4,600 miles a month to be the same as (not more) than the average car payment.

[Garret]

I drove a ‘80’s turbo diesel Jetta once, you could really feel all 74 hp come on at 2500 rpm.

The TDI Jettas had plenty of oomph & would get over 50MPG on the highway. On a trip to Maine one summer, I purposely kept the speed to 65 max & drove it carefully. Got 58.

Earlier VW diesels were much cruder. Yes - I know about dieselgate.

[Garret]

OK so I just thought about what you said a little more. Exactly how much was you monthly fuel bill that it is costing more than a monthly car payment?

The average monthly car payment is currently $667/Month (I'll bet it is higher for EV's since the sticker price is a little higher). Average fuel cost (currently) in southern California is about $5.00 per gallon but half that when you last had your Jeep. That monthly car payment would buy you around 250 gallons of fuel a month. That translates into 5,000 miles a month since your Jeep gets 22MPG. I realize that everyone drives in So Cal, but that is a lot of driving. Either that or your Tesla car payment is super low.

The Jeep does well on mileage 'cause it spends so much time in the shop...

[John Meachen]

British gallons,but the car weighs more than a Tesla Model 3 too-1800Kg.The joy of diesel.

pleasing result.jpg

[Steve McMahon]

All very good discussion, but essentially moot.
Known oil reserves divided by current consumption is around 47 years if we suck every drop out. Yes there will be new finds, but it will continue to become more and more expensive to extract.
Nuclear is currently not an option for civilized nations, we are still battling with 75 years of waste let alone the fallout from all the catastrophic accidents.
The only current hope for our grandchildren is a combination of wind, hydro, solar, tidal, wind to hydrogen, smart grids, and a huge dose of increase of efficiency of transportation systems and building envelopes. Thankfully there are those out there that recognize this and are making major advances and investment in these technologies, including the oil companies.
To compare our current state of these technologies to the automotive industry, we’ve past the model T stage, maybe we’re somewhere around the 1949 Hudson stage…we’re rolling, but still have a ways to go.

[Nicholas Carey]

All very good discussion, but essentially moot.
Known oil reserves divided by current consumption is around 47 years if we suck every drop out. Yes there will be new finds, but it will continue to become more and more expensive to extract.

There haven't been a lot of significant new oil fields found since the 1970s. Increased production has come from finding new ways to extract oil from depleted oil fields.

Organic chemistry is largely the chemistry of petroleum hydrocarbons. Oil is far too useful as a feedstock for making other stuff (like plastics, epoxy , etc) to be burning it up as fuel.

[sonofswen]

Don't forget to factor in the extra purchase price (15%-20%), electric bill and/or charges at the station.

Ha Ha...most EV users charge at home, 95% of the time. @ .0948 cents per kW, it cost $6- $7 for over 325 miles..that's charging at Home.

[Breakaway]

As somebody who once drive a '69 microbus, a vehicle, for all intents and purpose completely lacking a heater (atleast in the Midwest, where the road salt destroys the heater boxes in a time asymptotically approaching zero), I have [not so] fond memories of driving across the Midwest in the dead of winter . . .

With an ice scraper in one hand, trying to keep the inside of the windshield sufficiently clear of frost that I could see well enough to drive.

Like I said -- not a lot of people going to drive any distance in the dead of winter without heat. And that's just from a functional perspective, not a comfort perspective.

I am saying its not all or nothing. You can run the defroster and not the heat. The heat doesnt need to be on the whole time. And heat will be on more or less of the time depending upon how hearty the person is. That is how it is, regardless of what type of propulsion you have.
All if this should be taken into account when selecting the vehicle. The broad brush of everyone needs the heat on all the time just doesnt apply.

Kevin




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Too Little Time]

Ha Ha...most EV users charge at home, 95% of the time. @ .0948 cents per kW, it cost $6- $7 for over 325 miles..that's charging at Home.

Math is so much fun. We can play all sorts of games.

The engineering explained Tesla guy did a video of a 1000 miles 1 day trip in his Tesla. About $80 for filling up at superchargers (and about 2 hours longer). My wife's car would have used $75 for fuel. This indicates long distance travel - why else would one have a 300 mile range, is about a wash. Most people don't do much daily driving so the initial cost difference of a Tesla makes my wife's car a better choice.

An important issue is that batteries are getting better. In particular, charging times are decreasing as charging rates increase. That might change the math.

Joe is in an unusual position where he drives long miles every day and can recharge at night.

[Breakaway]

British gallons,but the car weighs more than a Tesla Model 3 too-1800Kg.The joy of diesel.

pleasing result.jpg

Yes, range, mileage, is better for deisel.

Here, though, diesel costs 40 percent more than gas, basically meaning it costs the same to go any given mileage.

Add in the up front higher cost of a diesel powered vehicle, and unless you either need max range or max torque, it makes little sense, to purchase one.

Kevin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[LeeG]

The TDI Jettas had plenty of oomph & would get over 50MPG on the highway. On a trip to Maine one summer, I purposely kept the speed to 65 max & drove it carefully. Got 58.

Earlier VW diesels were much cruder. Yes - I know about dieselgate.

This was the 1700 cc diesel. I think the non turbo verson was 56 hp. Had the chance to drive a friends early 2000 Jetta wagon, or Passat, and loved it. Lots of oomph in third gear.

[Garret]

This was the 1700 cc diesel. I think the non turbo verson was 56 hp. Had the chance to drive a friends early 2000 Jetta wagon, or Passat, and loved it. Lots of oomph in third gear.

Yep - my folks had a Rabbit diesel - non-turbo. It was sllllloooowwww. However the 190D Mercedes my dad had years before made it look like a rocket sled. I took my driver's license test in it & the motor vehicle test guy said it's acceleration made it unsafe to be on the road & almost flunked me for it.

[Joe (SoCal)]

OK so I just thought about what you said a little more. Exactly how much was you monthly fuel bill that it is costing more than a monthly car payment?

The average monthly car payment is currently $667/Month (I'll bet it is higher for EV's since the sticker price is a little higher). Average fuel cost (currently) in southern California is about $5.00 per gallon but half that when you last had your Jeep. That monthly car payment would buy you around 250 gallons of fuel a month. That translates into 5,000 miles a month since your Jeep gets 22MPG. I realize that everyone drives in So Cal, but that is a lot of driving. Either that or your Tesla car payment is super low.

Sorry I was rushing out to go to The Los Angeles Museum of modern art with my buddy we took my Tesla it cost us nothing since I charged it for $9 last night and get 358 miles of range ;D - What I meant to say my Tesla car note is LESS than what I was paying a month in sweet sweet California gas on my previous ICE vehicle . My Tesla car payment is $700 a month I was paying $90 2x a week or $180 X4 = $720 so $20 more, and no oil changes, tune ups, spark plugs, timing belts, etc etc etc