EVs and cold weather

[Dave Gray]

Assuming I buy an EV and go snowshoeing for six hours on Mt Hood when the temperature is ten degrees F. Could I expect any kind of driveable charge when I leave?

[Canoeyawl]

Bring along a gasoline powered generator?

[David W Pratt]

Park pointing downhill and recharge while coasting down toward warmer temps?

[Jim Bow]

Instead of me doing a C&P, click here: https://blog.evmatch.com/busting-the...caAsO-EALw_wcB

[Too Little Time]

Instead of me doing a C&P, click here: https://blog.evmatch.com/busting-the...caAsO-EALw_wcB

This is perhaps important.

At 20 degrees: A 12% decrease without heat; a 41% decrease with heat.

[Tom Montgomery]

^
I relied upon a battery-powered vehicle when I was working as a torque inspector at Ford KTP. I recall a conversation with a skilled tradesman in the ITR (Industrial Truck Repair) shop when he informed me that it was heat, rather then cold, that was the enemy of a battery.

[Too Little Time]

I relied upon a battery-powered vehicle when I was working as a torque inspector at Ford KTP. I recall a conversation with a skilled tradesman in the ITR (Industrial Truck Repair) shop when he informed me that it was heat, rather then cold, that was the enemy of a battery.

That is true. But in this case a lot of power is needed to keep the car warm.

If the temp was 20 degrees and the car had a 400 mile range at 75 degrees, one might have a problem in driving 120 miles to the mountain and 120 miles back home. But one could charge close to the mountain. But one needs to plan.

[Dave Gray]

That applies to driving anywhere in cold weather and can add a significant time factor to a trip

[hawkeye54]

Wait for someone to try to slap a magnetic oil pan (plug-in) heater under their new EV.

[Joe (SoCal)]

Assuming I buy an EV and go snowshoeing for six hours on Mt Hood when the temperature is ten degrees F. Could I expect any kind of driveable charge when I leave?

WRONG !!! Again people without an EV making false predictions as usual



The Tesla Model 3 Long Range and the Tesla Model Y Long Range only showed a 1% loss in range.

[Dave Gray]

Asked a question. No prediction made.

[David G]

Instead of me doing a C&P, click here: https://blog.evmatch.com/busting-the...caAsO-EALw_wcB

It appears the article gives credence to Mr. Grey's concerns --

A AAA study released in February 2019 tested five EV models at 20 degrees and 95 degrees Fahrenheit including a 2018 BMW i3, a 2018 Chevy Bolt, a 2018 Nissan Leaf, a 2017 Tesla Model S 75D, and a 2017 Volkswagen e-Golf. EVANNEX boiled down this assessment from the study:

Compared to running at 75 degrees, the cars saw the following impact:

At 20 degrees: A 12% decrease without heat; a 41% decrease with heat.

At 95 degrees: A 4% decrease without AC; a 17% decrease with AC.

[Nicholas Carey]

Instead of me doing a C&P, click here: https://blog.evmatch.com/busting-the...caAsO-EALw_wcB

a 41% decrease with heat.

I hate to break to them, but a 41% decrease at 20° F without heat is... significant (who, in the real world, is going to run their car for any amount of time at 20° without heat?)

That's the difference between a 300-mile range and a 177-mile range.

[Chip-skiff]

Don't have an EV, but I do have a battery-powered snowblower.

At subzero temps, it seems to do a good job.

Heating the interior of a car would certainly take quite a lot of battery charge. But the battery can be recharged, while the gas burned to yield heat for an IC car is gone, except for becoming part of the whole carbon emissions problem. Heat the car, heat the planet.

[dutchpp]

Norway has a very large population of EV's and some very cold weather.
This is a fairly recent Norwegian consumer test of a serious amount of different EV's, American, Asian and European
The article is written in English.
https://www.naf.no/elbil/aktuelt/elb...nge-test-2020/

[Paul Pless]

Heating the interior of a car would certainly take quite a lot of battery charge. But the battery can be recharged, while the gas burned to yield heat for an IC car is gone, except for becoming part of the whole carbon emissions problem. Heat the car, heat the planet.

nissan and renault have a unique strategy to providing heat

their electric cars heat the seat, armrest, steering wheel, floor mat, and blow a very small amount of heated air towards the head of the cars occupants

[Dave Hadfield]

Norway has a very large population of EV's and some very cold weather.
This is a fairly recent Norwegian consumer test of a serious amount of different EV's, American, Asian and European
The article is written in English.
https://www.naf.no/elbil/aktuelt/elb...nge-test-2020/

That report doesn't mention what the temperature was in the winter tests, only that the range dropped 20%.

There's a big difference between the heat required in the cabin at -25C vs -5C.

We have mornings here where I live, 80 km N of Toronto, at -30C and colder.

Dave

[LeeG]

^
I relied upon a battery-powered vehicle when I was working as a torque inspector at Ford KTP. I recall a conversation with a skilled tradesman in the ITR (Industrial Truck Repair) shop when he informed me that it was heat, rather then cold, that was the enemy of a battery.

I think heat can damage a batteries life whereas cold limits a batteries capacity and ability to take a charge. Expensive batteries for vehicles gotta be designed to protect the investment in the battery but capacity used to keep the battery warm in extreme conditions, 32F is not extreme, has to cut into range.

[LeeG]

WRONG !!! Again people without an EV making false predictions as usual



T[FONT="]he Tesla Model 3 Long Range and the [/FONT]Tesla Model Y Long Range only showed a 1% loss in range.

32F isn’t a good example of a common cold extreme. Take it to the temps people encounter in upstate NY and the midwest.

[sonofswen]

During cold weather (below 50 degrees Fahrenheit), you will start to find a slight drop in range due to the battery needing to warm up. Below 30 degrees, the range loss becomes more apparent. In a study by AAA, electric cars experience a range loss of 12% in 20 degree F temperatures. And that is with the HVAC (Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning) off.

From a guy who lives in Canada..drives a Tesla Model 3>> "I left my 2020 M3LR in our unheated barn for for 8 days. Over that time, the temperature never got above freezing and was in the single digits overnight several times. Snetry was off and I never woke the car up with my App. When I got home the car had lost 11% of it's charge."

I find that pretty amazing...

[Joe (SoCal)]

32F isn’t a good example of a common cold extreme. Take it to the temps people encounter in upstate NY and the midwest.

Watch the video he does a deep dive in very cold weather and experienced minimal loss of range. I should add using your HVAC in a ICE car reduces your milage as well

[Too Little Time]

Watch the video he does a deep dive in very cold weather and experienced minimal loss of range. I should add using your HVAC in a ICE car reduces your milage as well

I think a 20% range drop is significant. In cloudy weather or at night I suspect the range will drop even more - the sun does a great job of heating. (I had watched the video in the past.) If I recall, he drives at slower speeds than I do. So that affects range also.

HVAC is a mixed bag. Most cars are more efficient with the windows closed and the A/C on. That should apply for heat also.

[Joe (SoCal)]

Its not 20 can someone, anyone, please watch the video I posted first, then comment on the actual real world loss of range ?

Efficient is a relative term an ICE car is about 30% efficient, an EV car is about 80% efficient

[Dave Gray]

You never know who is acting as an influencer. This could be one for all I know.
https://ev-america.com/how-does-cold...electric-cars/

[Canoeyawl]

EV's (including Tesla) always obey the laws of physics

[Joe (SoCal)]

EV's (including Tesla) always obey the laws of physics

Yea but its not the original 40% people were saying it's not even the 20% the 17.4% is like the max in extremely rare sub 0 deg cold days. It's more like 15%

Another interesting way of comparing is looking at MPG equivalence. 1 ga of gas = 33.7 KWH or so a 2,000 mile drive.
In the summer took the equivalent of 16.6 gallons of gas for the EV to drive the same 2,000 miles.
In the freezing winter it took the equivalent of 20 gallons of gas for the EV drive the same 2,000 miles.

MPGe ( 1ga = 33.7 kWh )
Summer - 118 MPGe
Winter - 100 MPGe

It seems that the laws of physics would indicate an EV in the freezing cold is still WAY more efficient than an ICE car.

Now we all know that ICE cars don't need to expend energy to heat the car. They literally have little explosions producing surplus heat but what about in the summer running the AC off the AC motor and belts they might be even less efficient.

[Joe (SoCal)]

nissan and renault have a unique strategy to providing heat

their electric cars heat the seat, armrest, steering wheel, floor mat, and blow a very small amount of heated air towards the head of the cars occupants

Heated seats and Heated steering wheel keeps me from ever turning on the heat even when we were up in Big Bear and it was in the teens.

[Breakaway]

I hate to break to them, but a 41% decrease at 20° F without heat is... significant (who, in the real world, is going to run their car for any amount of time at 20° without heat?)

That's the difference between a 300-mile range and a 177-mile range.

Well, Dave is going snowshoeing. He owns appropriate clothing. Compared to being out in the wind, being in a car is toasty.

So, a hearty soul such as himself may be fine with running with no heat. ( I know myself, I often crack open the windows and turn off the heat on sunny, cold days. ) Others may not be.

I think it is important to remember that an electric car may not be for everyone, just a diesel pickup, a gas sportscar or cng powered commuter bus is not for everyone. But being not for everyone, doesnt make any of the above bad.

Kevin




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[Too Little Time]

Its not 20 can someone, anyone, please watch the video I posted first, then comment on the actual real world loss of range ?

Efficient is a relative term an ICE car is about 30% efficient, an EV car is about 80% efficient

There is certainly a range of percentages. Just watch several videos. And math using 20% is easier than math doing whatever the numbers in the video were. Considering we don't know the actual trip conditions, worse case is perhaps the best planning.

I don't know how one uses EV fuel in a ICE engine or vis versa. I thought the issue was one of ability to make a given trip. I said at worse one might need to recharge.

[Too Little Time]

Heated seats and Heated steering wheel keeps me from ever turning on the heat even when we were up in Big Bear and it was in the teens.

And I hike in shorts in 20 degree weather. But sometimes 50 degrees requires 2 layers and wind protection.

[Chip-skiff]

One tactic is to put a small plug-in electric heater in your EV and start it a while before you leave.

A warm interior takes much less battery power to maintain a comfortable temperature.

[Nicholas Carey]

Well, Dave is going snowshoeing. He owns appropriate clothing. Compared to being out in the wind, being in a car is toasty.

So, a hearty soul such as himself may be fine with running with no heat. ( I know myself, I often crack open the windows and turn off the heat on sunny, cold days. ) Others may not be.

I think it is important to remember that an electric car may not be for everyone, just a diesel pickup, a gas sportscar or cng powered commuter bus is not for everyone. But being not for everyone, doesnt make any of the above bad.

Kevin




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

As somebody who once drive a '69 microbus, a vehicle, for all intents and purpose completely lacking a heater (atleast in the Midwest, where the road salt destroys the heater boxes in a time asymptotically approaching zero), I have [not so] fond memories of driving across the Midwest in the dead of winter . . .

With an ice scraper in one hand, trying to keep the inside of the windshield sufficiently clear of frost that I could see well enough to drive.

Like I said -- not a lot of people going to drive any distance in the dead of winter without heat. And that's just from a functional perspective, not a comfort perspective.

[MushCreek]

Global warming will fix this.

[Boatbum]

Watch the video he does a deep dive in very cold weather and experienced minimal loss of range. I should add using your HVAC in a ICE car reduces your milage as well

OK, so I watched the video. He uses a lot of bad science methods such as comparing his worst day of the summer drive to the worst day in the winter to arrive at a 20% drop in distance. Whereas consumer reports actually used impartial scientific methods in arriving at their 41% drop in efficiency. In terms of the MPG comparison, he is also using the EPA figures which overestimate the milage of EV's by about 300% A more accurate estimate would have been around 38MPG equivalent vs the 100 MPG he cites in is video. I get it, he is a Tesla fan and is all in. And to be fair, EV's as well as hydrogen will be the wave of the future, but that is best accomplished by establishing realistic expectations not by overinflating them. Cold weather is one of the obstacles the industry will have to overcome for it to fully replace a fossil fuel-driven transportation system.

[Dan McCosh]

As somebody who once drive a '69 microbus, a vehicle, for all intents and purpose completely lacking a heater (atleast in the Midwest, where the road salt destroys the heater boxes in a time asymptotically approaching zero), I have [not so] fond memories of driving across the Midwest in the dead of winter . . .

With an ice scraper in one hand, trying to keep the inside of the windshield sufficiently clear of frost that I could see well enough to drive.

Like I said -- not a lot of people going to drive any distance in the dead of winter without heat. And that's just from a functional perspective, not a comfort perspective.

Having once owned both a British sports car and a VW at the same time, what was difficult was remembering that for the MG, you used the scraper on the outside of the window, while on the VW, you used it on the inside.