Lug & Sprit Questions

[Novice091015]

Lug & Sprit Rig Questions:

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Lug:

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When the Lug Rig keeps its unsupported luff straight, via the use of the downhaul, does the resulting stress sometimes break or bend the yard, stretch or tear the sail, break connecting-fittings, or damage the deck or hull?

... Is extra strengthening required in order to prevent such damage?

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Does the Lug Rig thereby have failure modes, expense & maintenance problems that are specifically its own?

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Of course one of the main criticisms of the Bermudan Rig is the breakage, expense, & maintenance problem due to stresses peculiar to the rig.

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Yes, it’s sometimes said that a luff supported by, bound to, a mast has its airflow disturbed by the mast. But hasn’t there been research showing that a mast doesn’t really interfere with a sail’s airflow in a way or to a degree that significantly spoils its performance?

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Sprit: . If too much wind-force on the sail breaks a mast, boom or gaff, that spar will break in the direction away from the sailor. . But the sprit, of the Sprit-Rig & the Leg-Of-Mutton Rig, is compressionally-stressed, & if it breaks, which way will it break? Anyone’s guess, right?

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…like a 50% chance that it will break in the direction of the sailor? , Isn’t that considered a danger when using the Sprit Rig or Leg-Of-Mutton Rig?

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Just asking…

[Bruce Bateau]

Lug & Sprit Rig Questions:

...
Lug:

....

When the Lug Rig keeps its unsupported luff straight, via the use of the downhaul, does the resulting stress sometimes break or bend the yard, stretch or tear the sail, break connecting-fittings, or damage the deck or hull?

... Is extra strengthening required in order to prevent such damage?

...

Does the Lug Rig thereby have failure modes, expense & maintenance problems that are specifically its own?
…

If the boom/yard are the right size, it is no problem at all. The deck may need to be reinforced to hold your hardware/blocks, but the stress isn't all that you'd expect.

In ten plus years of being a lug sailor, I've not sensed that there is any likely risk of failure!



-Bruce

[WI-Tom]

The yard on my rig (a boomless standing lug) definitely bends, by design. A good sailmaker will account for the bend of the yard when shaping the sail. Mine had me do a simple test to measure how much the spar bend under a certain amount of weight (spar between two sawhorses, hang a weight related to the sail area from it, measure the deflection from a straight line).

Extra strengthening is necessary on the luff of a lugsail. Good sailmakers do this.

After 14 years or so with lugsails and spritsails, I've never seen any breakage as you describe. Properly designed and built, I wouldn't expect any problems.

Tom

[Novice091015]

Thanks to you both for your answers to my questions. Oh, one curious thing: At the website of a commercial boat-manufacturer, they warned that it's important to keep the boat's shrouds properly adjusted & maintained, because the shrouds often break, & it's dangerous when they do. ...What??? Then why does anyone sail that boat? ...or any stayed-mast Bermudan boat?

[Toxophilite]

I think that maybe should actually read 'because shrouds CAN break and it's dangerous when they do." It's probably also possibly somewhat of a disclaimer.
A broken shroud can likely mean a dismasting which could be catastrophic.

I have never had a shroud break however I mostly have experience with small boats and I've never done any extreme racing etc.

I don't think this should put you off Bermuda rigs and stayed masts, like any part of the boat it should be properly adjusted and maintained.

Thanks to you both for your answers to my questions. Oh, one curious thing: At the website of a commercial boat-manufacturer, they warned that it's important to keep the boat's shrouds properly adjusted & maintained, because the shrouds often break, & it's dangerous when they do. ...What??? Then why does anyone sail that boat? ...or any stayed-mast Bermudan boat?

[Autonomous]

Your angst, while understandable for a novice, is unfounded. The basics have been worked out for some time.
A reasonably well-built rig given basic maintenance is safe.

[Novice091015]

Okay, & I again thank you for your answers. I didn't know what to make of that Lido 14 page about the shrouds.

[Todd Bradshaw]

When the Lug Rig keeps its unsupported luff straight, via the use of the downhaul, does the resulting stress sometimes break or bend the yard, stretch or tear the sail, break connecting-fittings, or damage the deck or hull?

I don't know where you are getting these ideas, but they are totally inaccurate, and you need to find better sources for your "information" as what you are getting is pure B.S. and doesn't reflect any actual experience with the rigs.

[Novice091015]

Todd:

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First, Four people have already answered my questions.They answered politely. My questions had already been answered before you posted, & I'd thanked them for their answers.

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From what they said, my concerns about damage to the Lug, getting hit by a broken piece of a sprit, & getting hit by a broken Lido 14 shroud were unfounded. They're familiar with boats, & I take their word for what they said.

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Maybe the dangers I asked about are negligible compared to the danger of getting caught in a storm.
.
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Regarding your answer: Oops!! You forgot to say what bull**** information I'd stated.

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The few facts that I stated were uncontroversial. The unfounded concerns weren't stated as facts, but as QUESTIONS.

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Oops!! You forgot to specify what information I stated was incorrect.

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The Lido website's page about the Lido 14's shrouds said that they often fail, & that it's dangerous when they do. So that's bull****? Then you know more about the Lido 14 than their own engineers do?

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It was earlier pointed out to me here that that page might have been exaggerating the danger. (...probably because it's better to be safe than sorry, & because of liability-considerations.)

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But maybe you were going a bit too far when you say that they were giving bull**** information??

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In my question about the Lug, there were no claims or statements by me...only the question. So it isn't quite clear how you could think I gave bull**** information in that question.

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In my question about the Sprit Rig, yes I did state a fact about the sprit being subject to compressional stress. Various authors have said that. Were they all talking bull**** too?

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It's reasonable to ask whether, if a compressionally-stressed spar breaks, will it break in an unpredictable direction? ...& might there be a 50% chance that it will break toward the sailor.

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It was answered that the breaking of a sprit is so rare as to be negligible as a danger. But part of my question about the Lug was answered in the affirmative:

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Yes, the Lug's yard can bend under the stress I asked about, & good sailmakers take that into account when they make Lugsails.

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Yes, the sail can be damaged for the reason I asked about (whether catastrophically, or just stretched over time), & therefore the luff is reinforced.

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Yes, Luggers' decks are at least sometimes reinforced for the reason that I asked about.

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I'd asked if those parts needed to be strengthened due to the downhaul, & the answer was the luff & the deck indeed at least sometimes need to be strengthened, reinforced. ...& that the bending of the yard at least sometimes has to be measured, & taken into account when making the sail.

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One would hope that you aren't saying that those statements are bull**** too.

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I don't know why it was necessary for you to answer questions that had already been answered, & the answer acknowledged. ...or why you needed to answer in attack-language.

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Most likely you answered because you couldn't resist an opportunity to post attack-language.

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Maybe there's no forum that doesn't have someone like that.

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I don't know where you are getting these ideas, but they are totally inaccurate, and you need to find better sources for your "information" as what you are getting is pure B.S. and doesn't reflect any actual experience with the rigs.

[Ben Fuller]

I've a couple/ three decades sailing both. I've never broken anything. With a peak pennant on my sprit it would catch or slow the top of a broken sprit; so far mine have bent but never broken. With one of the first experiments with carbon fiber masts for my lugger, we forget that the lug mast should not bend and used a non lug section which bent in heavy wind. Mast needed to be replaced for better performance. My lug halyard and down haul turn blocks are well supported as they are loaded.... a 4x1 low stretch down haul tackled pulled hard. I've the same experienced with stayed dinghy rigs and never a shroud failure. Any warnings about these are purely manufacturer and lawyer looking at what if....

[Brian Palmer]

My boomless standing lug of about 80 sq ft has a 2-part downhaul. I tension it enough to remove any wrinkles from the sail, but I don't pull it enough to flatten the sail in higher winds or change the shape from what the sailmaker built into it. I also have two wire shrouds and a forestay holding the mast. I regularly inspect them to make sure there are no broken or bent wires and corrosion. I also reef when I need to. Just prudent common sense to make fairly expensive and essential pieces of equipment last and be there when I need them.

[FF]

Novice, I am a professional sailmaker and make lugsails for more than 20 years. I reinforce the luff of balanced lugsails when the sail area is over 5 m2 with dyneema since a customer asked me to do that . He built a dinghy designed by Nigel Irens with a big balanced lugsail and he uses a 4 part downhaul and calculated that when he pulled hard how much tension was applied to the luff when later he hauled in the mainsheet, because the yard functions as a fulcrum. You can see the boat at his website. It is the BJ17 and go to the article by Kathy Mansfield.
www.jachtbouwbartjanbats.nl
On my own site you can find some general information and opinions on 4 cornered sails.
www.oarandsail.nl
Frank

[WI-Tom]

Novice,

just so you know, Todd Bradshaw is one of the most (if not THE most) knowledgeable posters on the WBF when it comes to sails and rigs. I don't think his reply was at all an attack on you; rather, it was a blunt and informed response to a lack of basic knowledge on your part--and both the bluntness and the informed-ness are the result of long experience and significant expertise. Todd is super-generous with his knowledge with anyone looking to learn. So, don't be put off by the blunt reply. He is WELL worth listening to.

Tom

[Todd Bradshaw]

As someone who has designed and built more lugsails and spritsails over the past nearly 40 years than you will ever even see, I repeat my comment above, as it is still quite accurate. Grow up.

I don't know where you are getting these ideas, but they are totally inaccurate, and you need to find better sources for your "information" as what you are getting is pure B.S. and doesn't reflect any actual experience with the rigs.

[pez_leon]

The tone of the original post seemed so particular that I couldn't resist looking through his post history. This 20 page thread from 2015 seems pertinent:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?197132-Explanations-of-some-principles-and-properties-of-Lug-Rigs&p=4676059&highlight=#post4676059

You'll find a remarkably similar cast of characters embroiled in an increasingly heated discussion.

Because I've been leaving this thread open, you-lot have been unable to stay away from it, and from the raging controversy that you insist on having, regarding Explanations. You'd rather discuss me than discuss boats, or sail your boats.

You can't stop. You can't help it. And it's my fault, if I don't close the thread--for your own good.

By the end the center does not hold and mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.


Image: XKCD

[FF]

I suppose you all know the International Twelve Dinghy: Here it still actively raced by a dedicated group of sailors and all the mainsails that I inspected are reinforced with a ss wire. They would not do that if it would not be necessary.
Frank

[Autonomous]

Novice.
Todd is very generous with his knowledge and has helped many with his commonsense solutions.
In spite of your trollish immaturity, he gave you some very good life advice when he told you to grow up.

Now, sod off.

[stromborg]

The tone of the original post seemed so particular that I couldn't resist looking through his post history. This 20 page thread from 2015 seems pertinent:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?197132-Explanations-of-some-principles-and-properties-of-Lug-Rigs&p=4676059&highlight=#post4676059

You'll find a remarkably similar cast of characters embroiled in an increasingly heated discussion.

I did the same thing because something felt familiar...Verbose and cranky so he's over in my "Yeah, whatever dude" pile, a step below my "ignore" list but he doesn't post all that much.

[Novice091015]

About shrouds being necessary on the International 12, I didn't imply that they can't be necessary on small boats. An article about the Mirror dinghy mentioned shrouds too. It's less than 12 feet long (in the version I read about), & lightweight. Usually we hear about & observe small & light dinghies like that capsizing instead of dismasting, but maybe an exceptionally-heavy sailor hiking-out, & an immensely-powerful gust coming-up very abruptly, & a thin-stick of a mast could all contribute to dismasting. Of course it goes without saying that, when I ask about something, I'm not claiming to know the answer.

[Novice091015]

As someone who has designed and built more lugsails and spritsails over the past nearly 40 years than you will ever even see, I repeat my comment above, as it is still quite accurate. Grow up.

...
No, it wasn't. You're just repeating your mis-statements. I, almost entirely, asked questions, rather than stating "information". ...& the one fact (compresssional-stess on sprits) that I stated is also stated by many authors. Are they all talking "BS" too?

..& my questions about stress in the Lug Rig were answered in the affirmative by experience sailors at this forum. Yes the sail & deck are often reinforced to avoid damage from the downhaul stress. ...& yes, at least sometimes or often, the yard bends, & that's taken into account when making lugsails.

So, as I said, you were incorrect to say that I'd stated incorrect information, because `1) I only stated one bit of information (compressional stress on sprits), & it's widely stated by authors; & 2) The answers to some of my questions were "yes"; & 3) My statement from the Lido 14 website was a direct-quote.

So it was you who were posting incorrect statements. Sorry to have to say it.

[Novice091015]

Lack of knowledge. Well yes, I didn't know the answer to my questions...That's why I asked the questions :-)

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The only fact that I stated is common-knowledge & uncontroversial. ...except for a direct-quote from a the manufacturer of the boat in question. Some of the answers that I received here were in the affirmative.

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Bradshaw's experience & expertise are entirely irrelevant to the fact that he was talking aggressive counterfactual attack-bull****. I arrived polite. The answerers before Todd were polite.

Novice,

just so you know, Todd Bradshaw is one of the most (if not THE most) knowledgeable posters on the WBF when it comes to sails and rigs. I don't think his reply was at all an attack on you; rather, it was a blunt and informed response to a lack of basic knowledge on your part--and both the bluntness and the informed-ness are the result of long experience and significant expertise. Todd is super-generous with his knowledge with anyone looking to learn. So, don't be put off by the blunt reply. He is WELL worth listening to.

Tom

[Novice091015]

Thank you for your answer.

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Yes, safety-first, & liability-protection were my impression as well.

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I guess it's a common practice. Some years ago, the kids of my girlfriend at the time were given the common low-energy children's BB gun. On the box, the maximum range was stated as 687 feet, or something like that. But I'd calculated the maximum range to be about 450 feet, under certain reasonable atmospheric-conditions. Obviously the manufacturer didn't want to be sued because the BB, under unusual atmospheric conditions, at a high altitude above sea-level, &/or with a tailwind, went farther than they'd said, & hit someone.

I've a couple/ three decades sailing both. I've never broken anything. With a peak pennant on my sprit it would catch or slow the top of a broken sprit; so far mine have bent but never broken. With one of the first experiments with carbon fiber masts for my lugger, we forget that the lug mast should not bend and used a non lug section which bent in heavy wind. Mast needed to be replaced for better performance. My lug halyard and down haul turn blocks are well supported as they are loaded.... a 4x1 low stretch down haul tackled pulled hard. I've the same experienced with stayed dinghy rigs and never a shroud failure. Any warnings about these are purely manufacturer and lawyer looking at what if....

[Todd Bradshaw]

Of course it goes without saying that, when I ask about something, I'm not claiming to know the answer.

Answers? You can't even figure out the questions, and the questions you ask prove without any doubt that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Looking at your old thread, you don't seem to have learned anything in the past seven years, other than maybe how to be more juvenile and obnoxious. If you want to become a sailor, that's fine. Everybody has to start somewhere, and if you do ever actually become one you will eventually look back and see just how clueless you were at this point. Probably ought to get a boat first though. In the meantime, this argument isn't worth any of us bothering with.

[Novice091015]

Novice.
Todd is very generous with his knowledge and has helped many with his commonsense solutions.
In spite of your trollish immaturity, he gave you some very good life advice when he told you to grow up.

Now, sod off.

Yes, he was very generous with his mis-statements.

[Novice091015]

Answers? You can't even figure out the questions

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…whatever that’s supposed to mean :-)


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, and the questions you ask prove without any doubt that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

…

Alright, let’s look at that:


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One question was about a direct quote from the manufacturer of the Lido 14. What was I talking about? I was talking about what the Lido 14 website said.


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Another question was about the need to brace & strengthen the Lug-Rig against the force of the downhaul. That I was talking about a genuine problem was confirmed by the answers from people here, who confirmed that the sail & the deck are indeed (at least often) beefed-up to take the stress. …& it’s uncontroversially-obvious that the yard, too, must be made strong enough to escape damage. It was confirmed in the answers that the yards-bend has to be taken into account by a sailmaker.


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It’s disappointing that you, a sailmaker, would be unaware of the need to strengthen a lugsail’s luff & adjust the sail’s shape for yard-bend.


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The other question, regarding the sprit—What was I talking about? I was talking about the well-known fact that the stress on the sprit is compressional, & it isn’t obvious in which direction the compressionally-stressed sprit will break, if it breaks.


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Was the question unjustified? No, it wasn’t. Everyone knows that the breakage of spars isn’t unusual in races when people are going gung-ho for speed. No one is very surprised when a spar breaks in a race. Therefore it wasn’t at all unreasonable to ask if sprits sometimes break.


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Maybe because the direction of the break would be unpredictable, & therefore particularly dangerous, then sprits are always made with more-than-enough stoutness to ensure that they never break.


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…in recognition of the danger that I asked about.


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You, Todd, evidently can’t stop your repetition of your aggressive counterfactual bull****. Because you’re unable to help yourself, then I’m going to help you by closing this thread after I post this message.


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…how to be more juvenile and obnoxious.

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As I said, I arrived here polite. My questions weren’t “obnoxious”, & I thanked the people who answered them.


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“Obnoxious” began with you.


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Again I thank everyone who helpfully & politely answered my questions.

…
[Thead Closed]

[Todd Bradshaw]

My "misstatements" simply said that the stuff you wrote showed you to be totally uneducated about the subject matter and that you needed some actual experience to draw on or a better source of information. I doubt there is any statement in this entire thread that was more true than that one, or still is.

[Todd Bradshaw]

It’s disappointing that you, a sailmaker, would be unaware of the need to strengthen a lugsail’s luff & adjust the sail’s shape for yard-bend.

Clueless again. I have addressed both of these issues in just about every sail that I have ever built and have also documented and explained them right here on the forum numerous times.

By the way, perhaps you need to buy a copy of Iain Oughtred's book "The Clinker Plywood Boatbuilding Manual". Starting on page 146 is a small section explaining how to figure out spar diameters and tapers for lug, sprit and gaff sails. I have been using them for decades and suggesting that my customers use them as guides for the spars they are building. They turn out very good spars and from my perspective, following those guidelines gives me a good idea of how much spar bend to expect and cut the sail for. Otherwise, it would just be guessing.

assorted-lugsails.jpg

[Novice091015]

My "misstatements" simply said that the stuff you wrote showed you to be totally uneducated about the subject matter and that you needed some actual experience to draw on or a better source of information. I doubt there is any statement in this entire thread that was more true than that one, or still is.

... Todd is still repeating the same vague, referentless, meaningless, unspecific angry-noises. Yes, I get that Todd is full of anger. ... But, in all those angry Internet-common trollish angry-noise repetition, Todd hasn't specified even a single incorrect statement that I made. He wants to imply something unspecified, but wrong, about my questions. He's still unable to specify what it is. Just his usual repetitious raging angry-noises. He hasn't specified anything in particular wrong with my questions, because he doesn't know of anything. What can that be called, other than bullsh*t? ...& troll behavior?

[Novice091015]

...

[Novice091015]

I'd said:

...

It’s disappointing that you, a sailmaker, would be unaware of the need to strengthen a lugsail’s luff & adjust the sail’s shape for yard-bend.

...


Tod says:

Clueless again. I have addressed both of these issues in just about every sail that I have ever built and have also documented and explained them right here on the forum numerous times.

...


I comment:

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No, sorry, when I asked about the Lug's yard-bend & need to strengthen luff & deck due to downhaul force, Todd said that was "completely incorrect". ...something that wouldn't be said by someone who knew about those things.

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Anyway, my questions had been answered, & the answers acknowledged, & thanks expressed...& the topic was concluded until you butted-in, with your vague, referentless, unspecific angry-noises. ...continuing to repeat them without ever specifying what statements of mine you were referring to, & what was incorrect or otherwise wrong about them.

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You were also very bothered about my questions, but, again, couldn't share with us what, in particular was wrong with a particular question.

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Angry, completely vague insults & criticisms, butting-into what was previously an entirely polite discussion,in which questions had been answered.

Can you be surprised or offended that I likened that behavior to that of the common Internet attack-troll?

....

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Having sailed leg-o-mutton sprit sails in Dovekie and Shearwater for 30 years, and a lug sail in an Eastport Pram for 14 years, I would give a great deal of consideration to what Todd Bradshaw posts above.

[Peerie Maa]

...

What sort of boat do you sail?
A photo would be nice.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Oh, I'm not the least bit angry, just amused watching you embarrass yourself with your profound ignorance and obnoxious behavior. Before I'd get angry it would need to be caused by somebody who actually mattered or had some credibility, which you clearly do not. As to not bothering to address all these "issues" that you bring up, the most recent one is a good example.

It’s disappointing that you, a sailmaker, would be unaware of the need to strengthen a lugsail’s luff & adjust the sail’s shape for yard-bend.

Clueless again. I have addressed both of these issues in just about every sail that I have ever built and have also documented and explained them right here on the forum numerous times.

In other words, your statement is wrong, but you don't seem to understand that, probably due to the fact that you have heard the concepts, but in reality, have no idea what is done to address them.

The sails in that photo would not set or work as well as they do if those issues had not been accounted for during their design and construction, and if you want to start to understand what is done to address those issues, get some books and start studying. In the meantime, your profound ignorance and childish behavior is not our problem.

(kind of reminds me of a true internet warrior - sitting in his jammies from his "apartment" in his mom's basement with a bag of Cheetos, and setting the world straight)

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

The tone of the original post seemed so particular that I couldn't resist looking through his post history. This 20 page thread from 2015 seems pertinent:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...t=#post4676059

Where we find - praise be to Yeadon...

This is a James McMulllen sock puppet if there ever was one.

Very impressive effort.

I called it first.

[Peerie Maa]

(kind of reminds me of a true internet warrior - sitting in his jammies from his "apartment" in his mom's basement with a bag of Cheetos, and setting the world straight)

I am picturing sat under a bridge waiting to ambush travellers.