Tripled planked yacht repair.

[raven mad]

Hi all, I’m not sure if this yacht has been mentioned on this forum before, Maggie, a triple planked nz kauri boat. It suffered leaking from a dodgy flashing job between cabin and deck!
i am going to take her on, as being 100yo o feel it a duty. And she is still pretty.
i haven’t found anything online for triple planking so I’m asking here. A penny for your thoughts.
anyone experienced?

the yacht has dried out, and the bottom paint is cracking off due to shrinkage,

do i I bath her is water and rehydrate or use epoxy coating?

[JamesCaird]

Raven- You just have to keep cutting back to good wood. Dry is best for epoxy, of course. I just finished rebuilding the stern of a large cold molded boat, (4 layers: 3 diagonal 3/8" then 3/4" fore and aft. all in epoxy. Water had gotten down between layers from screw holes in toe rail and stayed there as everything had been glassed over. The trick is to create "flanges " in each layer where necessary at edges of repair. Not difficult, only tedious. I glue and screw layers together and remove screws next day leaving screws where they connect to stringers or frames. Very strong repair and not difficult to keep fair. Good luck/ JC

[Boatsbgood]

Forum member JohnB is familiar with a number of vintage Kauri two and threeskin boat restoratons. A PM might be the way to get connected.
Brian

[wizbang 13]

I think you want to avoid repairing with epoxy if the rest of the vessel is not epoxy.
But I would prolly epoxy the decks to stop this from ever happening again.

[JamesCaird]

[QUOTE=wizbang 13;6763354]I think you want to avoid repairing with epoxy if the rest of the vessel is not epoxy.
Why is that, Wiz? Based on my own experience, I do not agree. / Cheers/ JC

[Peerie Maa]

I think you want to avoid repairing with epoxy if the rest of the vessel is not epoxy.

Why is that, Wiz? Based on my own experience, I do not agree. / Cheers/ JC

I suspect that Bruce is OK with gluing components, like laminated frames or cabin joinery. But cold moulding three lams of veneer into a patch in a triple planked hull that is not hot or cold moulded would be a bad idea.

[Slacko]

My understanding of one method if repairing this is that each plank is scarfed with epoxy, so that it is not glued to the adjacent planks.
There is some tool sharpening in your future to achieve this.

[Larks]

How were the original three layers fastened? Any glue of any sort between them? Resorcinol?. The only triple layer construction that I’ve sailed and worked on was built with each layer epoxy glued to the one below it and the hull sheathed.

It may be useful to know a bit more about the boat - particularly her age, length, design and builder (if known). Your frames seem quite widely spaced.

BTW, if she’s nice and dry you may consider sheathing her once repaired rather than hydrating the hull now - a lot of benefits for the effort, including easier maintenance and longevity..... I’ve just done so with my Huon Pine strip planked hull.

[Peerie Maa]

How were the original three layers fastened? Any glue of any sort between them? Resorcinol?. The only triple layer construction that I’ve sailed and worked on was built with each layer epoxy glued to the one below it and the hull sheathed.

It may be useful to know a bit more about the boat - particularly her age, length, design and builder (if known). Your frames seem quite widely spaced.

BTW, if she’s nice and dry you may consider sheathing her once repaired rather than hydrating the hull now - a lot of benefits for the effort, including easier maintenance and longevity..... I’ve just done so with my Huon Pine strip planked hull.

If this was glued,

the glue has failed. But there are no fastening holes visible.
She could be a basket case.

[Slacko]

This is the old school NZ way, reputed to have been brought from Scotland by Robert Logan when he came to NZ.
I'm happy to be corrected on my understanding of construction, but no frames, no glue
The first layer of planks are attached to the stringers, centreline and beam shelf.
The second and third layers are attached to the first layer.
There was sometimes a layer of felt between the planks.

[raven mad]

She is 100 years old. I’m not sure of exact length. Maybe 32’
there seem to be copper nails. I don’t think it’s a basket case, being in the water for 100 years is pretty good pedigree.
No?
prob more a lake And river sailer than ocean.

I should have clarified: that I a, wondering if coating the whole hull is fibreglass is wise? Ive read mixed opinions. And I need more mixed options!

what ratio of mixed opinions do I use?
does it depend on climate?
wind speed and hot air direction?

ok but seriously, all Input is very valuable to me and I totally appreciate it.

Many thanx

[raven mad]

This is the old school NZ way, reputed to have been brought from Scotland by Robert Logan when he came to NZ.
I'm happy to be corrected on my understanding of construction, but no frames, no glue
The first layer of planks are attached to the stringers, centreline and beam shelf.
The second and third layers are attached to the first layer.
There was sometimes a layer of felt between the planks.

this seems to be the way.
Im surprised by its construction. Big gaps in Boards. As in 2-3mm
im confused by shrinkage and how repainting hull will go.
is it normal to paint hull dry?
there doesn’t seem to be any paint in gaps meaning it was expanded when painted.

[Peerie Maa]

This is the old school NZ way, reputed to have been brought from Scotland by Robert Logan when he came to NZ.
I'm happy to be corrected on my understanding of construction, but no frames, no glue
The first layer of planks are attached to the stringers, centreline and beam shelf.
The second and third layers are attached to the first layer.
There was sometimes a layer of felt between the planks.

Thin calico or silk set in shellac was the normal waterproofing between the skins. Hard to make it water tight without.

[Peerie Maa]

She is 100 years old. I’m not sure of exact length. Maybe 32’
there seem to be copper nails. I don’t think it’s a basket case, being in the water for 100 years is pretty good pedigree.
No?

Many thanx

No. Some boats are dead after 30 years, some after 50. Being an antique is not a measure of boat quality.
As she is copper fastened, you can repair her, if you cut back the plank ends properly. You must avoid having plank buts in a straight line, stagger them, or cut them at an angle, and ensure that you put plenty of fastenings in both but ends into the inner veneers.
The biggest issue is finding a suitable squidgy filler to go in-between all those seams as she takes up.
Paint sticks to dry wood much better than to wet.

[Paul G.]

Not all boats are worth saving and it really does depend on how much $$ you have. Best advice I can offer is to get a good wooden boatbuilder with real experience to have a look and assess the situation. It will be the best couple of hundred bucks you will ever spend. I am familiar with 3 skin boats and they are not too difficult to repair but you must understand what you are up for, riveted or not, calico or felt, this boat is way past a tickle up and a quick coat of paint. Your boat is 99% likely to be glued, on solely riveted boats they usually have either one or two inner diagonals and one fore and aft on the outer layer, so the glue in yours (most likely resorcinol) has failed or is failing. You may be up for a whole new skin over the top of the existing as it looks pretty rough.

As a sidenote, they often built diagonal boats like out of shorts to save money on the full length planking, not that its all bad but it means that it may have been built on a tight budget and all that entails.

[raven mad]

There seems to be quite a few butt joints along the way. Iberia been working with timber my whole life, and wondered about this seeming inconsistency. I was thinking of dove tailing a butt joint.
prob a silly idea, but my sentiment is there. To avoid a bad butt.

Im wondering if I pull off outer skin, ad membrane and epoxy new skin back on?

does anyone know a wooden boat builder in Sydney?
boat lays in wait Dural way.

Many thanks for thoughts. I’m taking them onboard.

[raven mad]

No. Some boats are dead after 30 years, some after 50. Being an antique is not a measure of boat quality.
As she is copper fastened, you can repair her, if you cut back the plank ends properly. You must avoid having plank buts in a straight line, stagger them, or cut them at an angle, and ensure that you put plenty of fastenings in both but ends into the inner veneers.
The biggest issue is finding a suitable squidgy filler to go in-between all those seams as she takes up.
Paint sticks to dry wood much better than to wet.

Thanks
so those gaps obviously concerned me. Having shrunk, the anti foul is falling off.
Would you fill gaps with what sort of material, squidgy filler is not my forte.
would you take off final layer and cold mould? Sheath?

ill try and get more history. All I know isn’t she is 100% kauri

all the rest seems to be in very good nick.

[raven mad]

Here are some mor pics. It has a new keel, cost em 5k!

deck is in good nick
they started sanding back, but I will re epoxy and paint.
A deck is still a roof.

[Larks]

I’d say most of the opposition to fibreglass sheathing a hull is in cases where it is done to a good solid historical hull where the thought is that it has ruined the historical integrity of the original build.

The other dislike for it is likely due to it being used to cover up rot and damage rather than properly repairing it, making buyers wary of some fibreglassed hulls (there was one sad case on this forum recently that "seemed" to have been sold to a forum member without the previous owner declaring to the buyer what had been done.....)

But the reality is that fibreglass sheathing a timber hull, whether from build or as an afterthought, is a perfectly adequate and appropriate practice for many perfectly good reasons and your kauri hull looks like it’s worth repairing and I’d say is a good candidate for sheathing.

I wouldn’t be taking any timber layers of the hull off and I wouldn’t be filling any of the gaps in the timber with any “goop”. If you do decide to fibreglass sheath it I’m inclined to think that the most suitable way to deal with the gaps may be to spline the gaps in that outer layer with something like cedar - or kauri if you could get some - fare the hull smooth and fibreglass it.....

In the meantime, it will help anyone who comes to look at it if you continue to strip all of that old paint back to bare wood to get a clear view of the condition of the timber and any fastenings. It will need to be done anyway and it’s not like it’s going to dry out any more.

Hard to know really without more details and without seeing it but I’d also suspect that, given what has been said so far, you’ll be wanting to pay close attention to how the hull is fastened to the frames, what condition the fasteners are in and whether it needs any refastening. Are the frames in good condition? Would adding any more fasteners through to the frames all the way around before glassing the hull cause them to split?

With the frames so widely spaced, adding sister frames or even additional intermediate frames for additional fastenings if needed wouldn’t be obtrusive.

There are plenty of wooden boat builders in Sydney and someone here may come back with a recommendation but I’d suggest that you may need to shop around to see who will repair it in the manner that you prefer. Each of them may have varying ideas as to how to repair this hull depending on their own experience with this sort of build - if anyone in Sydney has had experience with this sort of build - but no boat builder worth his salt will suggest a repair without inspecting it first anyway (perhaps be wary of anyone who does without seeing it......)

It may be worth your while dropping a few emails to wooden boat restorers in NZ to see what their experience with repairing these hulls is, that is where most of the expertise in this method of construction would likely be located.

[John B]

There's quite a bit that isn't sounding usual about this boat. Its not laid up like a 1920's boat, it doesn't look like a 1920's boat, it looks like a 40's plus design constructed like a glued 60's design to me.
The NZ boats of the turn of that century plus or minus derived their structural strength from the monocoque of multi skins , mechanically fastened on minimal frames and stringers, and their water tightness from the outer caulked skin , which was inevitably fore and aft.
Although there is much anecdote about fabric between skins I have never seen it or evidence of it as practise here. Neither in construction photos or on inspection of hulls as they have been restored. I don't believe it was general practise at all, although I'm sure there will be a few boats where it was done.
Anyway, this one with its outer skin being diagonal is quite unusual , who built it?
What design is it?
Is it really a NZ boat ?
What would be helpful is to understand why it is remembered as NZ and to see a full hull photo to get a better idea of its likely design.

[raven mad]

I’ll try and get so e answers.
just going on what I was told.
Hold tight!

[raven mad]

Thanks for reply.
Would I need to detach keel or just seal it up?
what you say sounds good. I’d rather have an epoxy hull than worms!
i saw a timber boat, all bounce pine, the caprice of houn? Somthing like that, a very $$$ yacht at rush utters bay, about 50’ I thought it was a glass hull, but hull was splined and faired to perfection. Amazing job. I’ll go amd get a photo

[Peerie Maa]

Thanks
so those gaps obviously concerned me. Having shrunk, the anti foul is falling off.
Would you fill gaps with what sort of material, squidgy filler is not my forte.
would you take off final layer and cold mould? Sheath?

ill try and get more history. All I know isn’t she is 100% kauri

all the rest seems to be in very good nick.

If you are up for the work, taking off the outer layer, refastening the inner skins where necessary and epoxying a new outer skin in place would be a good solution. A bit like what the Pardys did with Curlew. You still have to stagger the buts on the inner skins. Dovetailing adds no value, each skin supports the butt of the next one. Just ensure that the butts are adequately fastened.

[JamesCaird]

Hi Guys- thinking along these same lines: It looks like the glue between layers has failed and may be a more general condition. My boat had rot from the deck edge down in quadrupal diagonal layers with the outer layer fore and aft 3/4 inch fir but only in the stern (the last 14 ft of the boat. Also had to rebuild the stern post.
This subject boat may be saved by fastening through the good existing layers and adding a couple (at least) of veneer (1/8" or more) layers in epoxy. I think Peeria Maa is puting Pardeys and Carrs together but Curlew (Carrs) was sheathed in NZ. I was with them and on the Curlew in S.Georgia in the early 2000's and she was still bulletproff. Although they never did sail Curlew away.
There are a number of smaller boats around here which have been overplanked with veneers in epoxy and they are holding up. I am not a fan of fiberglassing over as in my experience it produces a moisture trap and a biological experiment. Best wishes/ JC

[Peerie Maa]

Hi Guys- thinking along these same lines: It looks like the glue between layers has failed and may be a more general condition. My boat had rot from the deck edge down in quadrupal diagonal layers with the outer layer fore and aft 3/4 inch fir but only in the stern (the last 14 ft of the boat. Also had to rebuild the stern post.
This subject boat may be saved by fastening through the good existing layers and adding a couple (at least) of veneer (1/8" or more) layers in epoxy. I think Peeria Maa is puting Pardeys and Carrs together but Curlew (Carrs) was sheathed in NZ. I was with them and on the Curlew in S.Georgia in the early 2000's and she was still bulletproff. Although they never did sail Curlew away.
There are a number of smaller boats around here which have been overplanked with veneers in epoxy and they are holding up. I am not a fan of fiberglassing over as in my experience it produces a moisture trap and a biological experiment. Best wishes/ JC

^ Just so, a senior moment. It was the Carrs.
Curlew is still sailing in the care of the Falmouth Maritime Museum.
https://nmmc.co.uk/object/boats/falm...y-punt-curlew/

[raven mad]

I STAND CORREDTEED.

Yes i knkw. It’s spelt wrong. Just like my info. The lady told it was “like 100” maybe that’s what she said.
Anyway http://www.rodanski.net/ben/personal...wenn/gwenn.htm

is all the info I can get.

37’
the paper says Oregon timber which is a mistake as it’s 100% nz kauri

i will try and get more. But there ain’t much to go on.

Might have to do a video call from a NZ shipwright.

Anyway, you guys were right it’s a 60’s design. 100% top of class.

ok so that was my test over. You all passed
and you can all stay.

But the tribe has spoken.

Ill do my best ti fix her up.

[Larks]

It says Oregon masts, New Caledonian Kauri hull, which likely wouldn’t be much (if any) different to NZ Kauri anyway - either way it is a valuable hull timber.

Do you have the masts? If they are original it’d be interesting to know what condition they are in.

[John B]

Fiji kauri is not the same as NZ kauri even if it is the sames species in the same way that NZ Doug fir isn't anywhere imported Oregon, so I wouldn't personally assume that , Greg.
So Vanuatu build 1960s glued hull with no glue showing in the photos. That's a concern.
I think a 'shipright' will say the same as everyone else. Staggered epoxy glued scarf joints on every skin plank working out. Assuming 6 mm skins the scarfs should be 50 to 75 mm approx. If it's delaminated because it was glued originally with something that wasn't resorcinol or epoxy it might be a candidate for a skin job with AYC or similar.

[Peerie Maa]

there seem to be copper nails.

So Vanuatu build 1960s glued hull with no glue showing in the photos. That's a concern.

Now I am confused.

[John B]

I missed the copper nails reference, but there would still be fastenings into frames/ ribs etc. Are there riveted nails?
Surely , given the un caulked and diagonal outer skin, this is or was once a glued boat.

[Larks]

Fiji kauri is not the same as NZ kauri even if it is the sames species in the same way that NZ Doug fir isn't anywhere imported Oregon, so I wouldn't personally assume that , Greg.

True that and I’m pretty sure that it has been discussed here before now that I think of it (or maybe some other woodworking forum???) - example Queensland Kauri v NZ Kauri: they look remarkably similar, almost identical as young trees (ie up to 15 years old anyway, three that I planted still look identical to some planted at the same time in Kerikeri) but the Qld Kauri apparently doesn’t have the same rot resistance properties as the NZ Kauri.

[Paul G.]

Has the OP started? Having a good look at the photo my advice re the hull is pretty much the same as before. It's stuffed as is and needs a lot of work! Glued 3 skin boats were often built 45-45-90 as this one is or mostly 90 depending on the hull shape. The glue almost 100% bound to be resorcinol and it has failed in places, splining it is a total waste of time, just use epoxy filler but before that you need to tap the hull and find the delaminated sections. Tappity tap tap all over it and you will hear the difference, it will sound hollow, now get your chalk out and mark the area. Once you have identified all the delaminated areas the fun begins, if they are small, few and far between then you can drill a small entry hole and squirt a sloppy mix of epoxy glue in there, an exit hole may be required. Larger areas need the same treatment and possibly a few rivets. Once youve done that you need to fill and fair in preparation for a heavy double bias epoxy sheathing. The fairing is a monster job so get help. The way to do the glassing involves precutting the glass to size and rolling it up on cardboard tubes then when you are ready to go unroll them on your glassing table and mix up the same weight of epoxy as cloth, use the slowest hardener and wet it out fully, roll it up again before offering it to the boat starting at the gunwale (make sure you have a mate) and work your way around. Then the fairing begins again lol! It will take you about 3-4 weeks full time on your own to get most of it done, but you will need a mate to help with a few bits. Good luck!

[Paul G.]

Ive done the work on 3 skin boats, when they are really stuffed you need to scarf in new planking- trust me it's a big job and not to be taken on lightly by one man on a budget.

Before

October 09, 2011-October 09, 2011_001-5.jpg


October 24, 2011-20111024-DSC_1776.jpg

[Paul G.]

Also it doesnt really matter what kind of timber is used either in the construction or rebuild as long as it is sound and dry. Epoxy will take care of any durability issues on the rebuild side and it must be reasonably sound to have lasted this long, Id just use whatever is handy, clear, not too brittle or soft and cheap.

[wizbang 13]

So much work… so much material
I’m not a fan of cold molded/ hot molded/ triple skin /whatever the hell this boat is boats.
…and now you know why