Biden going after semi-automatics?

[L.W. Baxter]

Even lamer is your attempt to deny it by saying "No, no, it's only Oregon 114 I was talking about!"

except that is not what i said either. why rephrase inaccurately?

why would i bother reasonong with somebody who does that so consistently. i wouldn't.

[Decourcy]

What else is new? I think it's your sweeping characterization:



that is "lame."

Even lamer is your attempt to deny it by saying "No, no, it's only Oregon 114 I was talking about!"--and then avoiding the simple questions I asked about Oregon 114: Do you find any of its requirements unreasonable? If so, why?

But what it comes down to seems painfully clear, whether you like the way I word it or not:

1. Prioritize avoiding all risk of "deepening the cultural divide" by attempting reasonable gun control measures.

OR

2. Prioritize reasonable gun control measures to prevent tens of thousands of gun deaths per year, even if it means "deepening the cultural divide" (which I'm not sure can BE any deeper than it already is, but whatever).

But, when challenged, you won't (can't?) defend your position. And are probably offended that I pointed out the moral/ethical implications of your position.

Yep. "Lame" sums it up pretty well so far.

Tom

What you fail to see is that your number 2 will do nothing to prevent tens of thousands of deaths, but wil: deepen the divide, drive up gun sales of all types, and make the real gun nuts nuttier. Also of course give reason for a persecution complex.

[WI-Tom]

What you fail to see is that your number 2 will do nothing to prevent tens of thousands of deaths

Evidence for that claim? What makes you think you know this?

As for this:

but wil: deepen the divide, drive up gun sales of all types, and make the real gun nuts nuttier. Also of course give reason for a persecution complex.

1. Can the divide be deepened? More importantly, so what if it is deepened? Morally, preventing gun deaths trumps the desire to avoid offending gun owners.

2. Persecution complex? They already have it. They've had it for years. Too bad. Time for gun owners to put on their big boy pants and realize that when they resist gun control legislation, they are contributing to the murders of thousands of people every year, and tens of thousands of suicides. There is no right enshrined in the U.S. constitution to avoid gun regulation.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

except that is not what i said either. why rephrase inaccurately?

why would i bother reasonong with somebody who does that so consistently. i wouldn't.

Ah, the old "rephrasing" accusation. Except, I'd say my representation of what you said is not all that far off the mark:

i was referring to the actual measures being proposed in the current culture-war environment.

oregon ballot measure 114 is a perfect example.

I "rephrased" it, I suppose, to suggest that I find your position on this issue silly. As accurately as I can understand your position, it is:

1. Anyone trying to pass gun control legislation similar to Oregon 114 is either ignorant, or pandering to progressives, or both.

2. Anyone trying to impose additional gun regulations will "deepen the cultural divide," and that's bad.

When challenged, you were unwilling (unable?) to explain:

--What you find objectionable in Oregon 114
--Why it's more important to avoid "deepening the cultural divide" than it is to deal with a national health emergency involving gun deaths
--Why masks and vaccines, which certainly "deepened the cultural divide," were OK with you (if I remember correctly), but measures to deal with gun deaths are not

I think it's that second point that I find most offensive. Like I said, time for gun owners to put on their big boy pants and stop being part of the problem by opposing gun regulation. I don't care if that means they can't use their favorite toys everywhere and everywhen they want. Too bad.

I also don't think the divide can BE deepened. In which case, the major part of your argument appears to be irrelevant. But whatever. Even if you're right, see my second question above.

Tom

[McMike]

interesting *cough* to see you express this sentiment. i feel this way about any number of progressive pipe dreams dreamt in the context of our hot culture war. the stupidest of all perhaps being promotion of an avowed socialist and democratic party critic for potus.

regarding guns in our society i agree that real progress is not possible through lawmaking. any gains that are possible are inconsequential, and serve mostly to deepen our already deep cultural divide.

and we have come to the point where serious people are no longer working on gun control legislation, so anything proposed is driven by pandering (by and for the dedicated martyrs of the left) and marked by ignorance.

Hillary Clinton was that hot culture war. "Anybody but Hillary" was the battle cry. And I agree, the anti-gun crowed is pandering, along with the college loan forgiveness crowd. A huge portion of this country does want universal healthcare. You have to wonder why the Democrats are mum on it. Now, nothing will happen, we'll stay stagnate for another generation.

[McMike]

What sort of place do you work at where the office workers must arm themselves with pepper spray?
A penal institution or what?
Seriously, why would management employ people they are scared of?
Why would you work at a place where employees feel the need to keep pepper spray at their desk?

We haven't deployed it, it's there for a precaution. Our shop is in a nasty neighborhood and many of the people who do this work are hotheads. What triggered it was a person who is a violent person got fired. We settled on pepper spray to thwart any acts on his part. Fortunately, it never came to that. I think you need to understand, humans are sh17, they will do evil things. A little prevention is not unreasonable. The owner may carry a pistol, I don't know, no one else does and I'm glad for that.

[McMike]

Maybe '****ty parenting' comes from the family needing several jobs to make ends meet. Maybe constant worries about money contribute to bad parents. Any WANT to be a bad parent?

Then don't have kids.

[WI-Tom]

Then don't have kids.

But the right is against abortions, against sex ed, and against birth control. Hmm...

Tom

[sandtown]

A huge portion of this country does want universal healthcare. You have to wonder why the Democrats are mum on it. Now, nothing will happen, we'll stay stagnate for another generation.

Partly correct, but note how the Dems get obstructed by the Right, and then get blamed for nothing happening.

Back in the days of yore, many Republicans also supported M4A. Those days are well and truly gone.

[McMike]

Partly correct, but note how the Dems get obstructed by the Right, and then get blamed for nothing happening.

Back in the days of yore, many Republicans also supported M4A. Those days are well and truly gone.

It stands to reason that if the left is "bold" enough to scream and yell about gun control, they'd scream and yell about something that most Americans care about and arguably will save more lives.

[RCRVRP]

We haven't deployed it, it's there for a precaution. Our shop is in a nasty neighborhood and many of the people who do this work are hotheads. What triggered it was a person who is a violent person got fired. We settled on pepper spray to thwart any acts on his part. Fortunately, it never came to that. I think you need to understand, humans are sh17, they will do evil things. A little prevention is not unreasonable. The owner may carry a pistol, I don't know, no one else does and I'm glad for that.

I assume having it available to all the people at desks meant it is "deployed" as in moved into position for potential action, even if not actually sprayed. But perhaps that is just semantics.

May I ask what kind of works attracts these " hotheads" your company needs to be so wary of?
Not asking where you work, just wondering what type of work this is that may attract this type of violent people.

Over my lifetime including summer college jobs, part time jobs during the school year and so on I suppose I worked at 20 or more companies but never felt threatened to the point I needed pepper spray at the ready. If I did feel that way I'd be looking for another job real fast.

[FishoutaFlorida]

You know I used to live on a farm and used guns for hunting, varmint control and target practice. It was a part of life.

That is until my wife and I were shot at and heard that terrifying buzz of a 30.06 bullet flying by.

No longer do I own or use a gun. And I've been right with SoCal Joe for some time now!

Me, I WANT TO KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR CONFISCATE ALL YOUR F'n FIREARMS AND MELT THEM F'n ALL

Too many innocent lives lost. And we just sit on our hands and send prayers and kind thoughts to families and friends of victims.

Shame on us.

[John Smith]

What you fail to see is that your number 2 will do nothing to prevent tens of thousands of deaths, but wil: deepen the divide, drive up gun sales of all types, and make the real gun nuts nuttier. Also of course give reason for a persecution complex.

I doubt anything that fails to address guns already bought will have much impact.

[John Smith]

Hillary Clinton was that hot culture war. "Anybody but Hillary" was the battle cry. And I agree, the anti-gun crowed is pandering, along with the college loan forgiveness crowd. A huge portion of this country does want universal healthcare. You have to wonder why the Democrats are mum on it. Now, nothing will happen, we'll stay stagnate for another generation.

It's successfully labeled "Socialism" by the right, and that word prevents them from learning the facts of how well universal healthcare works.

This is just one example of why we need to get lies out of politics and news.

[John Smith]

Then don't have kids.

Not all pregnancies are planned, and in many places now abortions are not available.

[John Smith]

It stands to reason that if the left is "bold" enough to scream and yell about gun control, they'd scream and yell about something that most Americans care about and arguably will save more lives.

You are aware of how congress works, no?

[CWSmith]

Maybe '****ty parenting' comes from the family needing several jobs to make ends meet. Maybe constant worries about money contribute to bad parents. Any WANT to be a bad parent?

Then don't have kids.

Oh come on! People deserve to make a living wage when they work a job and not need to work 2 and 3 jobs to support their families. Their communities suffer. The teachers in their schools don't get the support at home that is needed for successful education, and the cycle continues.

[Decourcy]

I doubt anything that fails to address guns already bought will have much impact.

That is something that I don’t think can be addressed. I’ve already discussed low compliance rates in other countries like here and NZ to “buybacks”. I’d expect the US to only have a fraction of those rates.

[L.W. Baxter]

Hillary Clinton was that hot culture war. "Anybody but Hillary" was the battle cry. And I agree, the anti-gun crowed is pandering, along with the college loan forgiveness crowd. A huge portion of this country does want universal healthcare. You have to wonder why the Democrats are mum on it. Now, nothing will happen, we'll stay stagnate for another generation.

yeah, and "never trump" was another battle cry. i never said we don't have to fight battles. my point is that the progressive left has chosen the wrong ones. tragically wrong.

funny you mention hillary and universal healthcare. seeing as how she is the only major political figure to ever really go to bat for it. she presented a workable plan in 1993. so good that the republicans principally feared it because it would work too well, and democrats would get credit from the middle class and working poor. look it up.

so they turned their smear machine into high gear. and their smearing echoes thirty years later in the distorted perception of hrc and her "likability", her "electability". what they did worked, in other words, and not just on the dittoheads.

[McMike]

Oh come on! People deserve to make a living wage when they work a job and not need to work 2 and 3 jobs to support their families. Their communities suffer. The teachers in their schools don't get the support at home that is needed for successful education, and the cycle continues.

Deserve? Sure. But they're not willing to fight for it. More and more Millennials and Gen Z are forgoing having children because they can't afford them. The billionaires need them to keep having kids to grow the economy. No kids, no economic growth. Its a bi-product I've been talking about for some time now. I saw how victimized my parents and my friends parents were raising us and they had it good compared to now. I got snipped when I was 25, I'm telling all the young people I know to do the same. Many are considering it.

[McMike]

yeah, and "never trump" was another battle cry. i never said we don't have to fight battles. my point is that the progressive left has chosen the wrong ones. tragically wrong.

funny you mention hillary and universal healthcare. seeing as how she is the only major political figure to ever really go to bat for it. she presented a workable plan in 1993. so good that the republicans principally feared it because it would work too well, and democrats would get credit from the middle class and working poor. look it up.

so they turned their smear machine into high gear. and their smearing echoes thirty years later in the distorted perception of hrc and her "likability", her "electability". what they did worked, in other words, and not just on the dittoheads.

Yup, and 30 years later, nothing . . . some plan . . . was just smoke and mirrors from my point of view. The country is aching for reform . . . Trump was their last chance since Obama failed them. I'm looking forward to the next iteration of the Tea Party/MAGA, should be fun.

[John Smith]

That is something that I don’t think can be addressed. I’ve already discussed low compliance rates in other countries like here and NZ to “buybacks”. I’d expect the US to only have a fraction of those rates.

Buy back needs patients. Assuming, for example, I had guns and no desire to sell them back. Question becomes what my heirs would do with them, which may be some years down the road.

[John Smith]

yeah, and "never trump" was another battle cry. i never said we don't have to fight battles. my point is that the progressive left has chosen the wrong ones. tragically wrong.

funny you mention hillary and universal healthcare. seeing as how she is the only major political figure to ever really go to bat for it. she presented a workable plan in 1993. so good that the republicans principally feared it because it would work too well, and democrats would get credit from the middle class and working poor. look it up.

so they turned their smear machine into high gear. and their smearing echoes thirty years later in the distorted perception of hrc and her "likability", her "electability". what they did worked, in other words, and not just on the dittoheads.

The guy who drove the coffee truck to us at 4 AM ish always had Limbaugh on the radio. He was convinced he'd suffer greatly if Hillary's plan passed. I wrote her. I got a reply with a copy of the synopsis of her proposal.

Only change he would see if it passed would be to buy the same insurance he has for a lower price.

[John Smith]

Yup, and 30 years later, nothing . . . some plan . . . was just smoke and mirrors from my point of view. The country is aching for reform . . . Trump was their last chance since Obama failed them. I'm looking forward to the next iteration of the Tea Party/MAGA, should be fun.

You just lost me.

The whole republican spin was to repeal and replace the ACA. Why was it necessary to repeal it to replace it? Was there a vote to repeal anything before the ACA passed?

If the GOP actually had a new healthcare bill, all that was needed was passing that bill, and their new system would automatically replace the ACA.

[McMike]

You just lost me.

The whole republican spin was to repeal and replace the ACA. Why was it necessary to repeal it to replace it? Was there a vote to repeal anything before the ACA passed?

If the GOP actually had a new healthcare bill, all that was needed was passing that bill, and their new system would automatically replace the ACA.

Yup, they played the stupid, just like the Democrats did . . . we're all stupid, because we keep falling for the same sh17.

[Decourcy]

Buy back needs patients. Assuming, for example, I had guns and no desire to sell them back. Question becomes what my heirs would do with them, which may be some years down the road.

Well, on practice what happens is that opinions and feelings harden. Those are usually carried down the generations. So I’d expect the same guns to be there 50 years down the road in the same families

[L.W. Baxter]

Yup, and 30 years later, nothing . . . some plan . . . was just smoke and mirrors from my point of view. The country is aching for reform . . . Trump was their last chance since Obama failed them. I'm looking forward to the next iteration of the Tea Party/MAGA, should be fun.

it was a real plan, mike, with real provisions that would have really worked. hillary has always had a path forward, a real path, through the people with the votes and the power, for any idea she championed.

remember the super delegates? that is your path.

the smoke and mirrors has been on the populist left, where ideas abound, but nobody does the work to bring them to fruition. the student debt debacle being a tidy illustration. ideology driving proclamations with no logic, no form, no champion. oregon's gun control ballot measure creates a whole new burden of bureaucracy for our state police--much of it redundant with existing federal law!--with a wave of the hand. no work done. smoke and mirrors.

[McMike]

it was a real plan, mike, with real provisions that would have really worked. hillary has always had a path forward, a real path, through the people with the votes and the power, for any idea she championed.

remember the super delegates? that is your path.

the smoke and mirrors has been on the populist left, where ideas abound, but nobody does the work to bring them to fruition. the student debt debacle being a tidy illustration. ideology driving proclamations with no logic, no form, no champion. oregon's gun control ballot measure creates a whole new burden of bureaucracy for our state police--much of it redundant with existing federal law!--with a wave of the hand. no work done. smoke and mirrors.

Really. Then why didn't even receive a floor vote though Democrats had majorities in both the house and senate? And then she leaned into the ACA in 16, forgoing "universal Healthcare". When the rubber met the road, she veered off. It's clear the Democrats are against it and they bought another decade with the battle against MAGA. She gives their paper tiger credibility. It's all bullsh17.

[JimD]

Any kind of defensive spray in an enclosed area is a really bad idea, you will always get yourself. You can purchase the gel stuff, which is a bit better, but I'd stick with a good ol claw hammer, short, so it's easy to swing in a hall way, and no one, and I mean no one will enjoy getting even a glancing blow from one. At work, we have a rowdy bunch, we don't allow guns in house but each of the office workers has a gel pepper spray at their desk. We've had two cases of workplace violence, more than likely a few we don't know about, and it's nice to have an option other than letting them fight it out.

I'm not sure I could swing a hammer fast enough and feel more comfortable with a length of hardwood that I can use the wrist in a that sort of snapping, whipping motion, whereas the weight of a hammer would require more of a (slower) arm swing. As you might imagine I am not a very big strong guy. As for the bear spray, for sure one would want to use it very judiciously indoors. I certainly wouldn't empty the can in my living room or bedroom. Edited to add: My wife just has to sprinkle a little cayenne into a hot dish on the stove and I'm coughing and gasping. So I hear ya.

[CK 17]

FYI Paul, added to the list on the assault rifle ban coming down the pipe in Canada are such guns as the SKS, the Garand, and in fact a number of hunting rifles including some ruger no1’s and wetherby’s etc.

Liberals have interesting definitions as well

a well thought out gun ban north of the border, more doing nothing south of the border. I’ll be eagerly watching the results of this experiment

[Decourcy]

a well thought out gun ban north of the border, more doing nothing south of the border. I’ll be eagerly watching the results of this experiment

Won’t work specifically because it’s not well thought out.

[David W Pratt]

It stands to reason that if the left is "bold" enough to scream and yell about gun control, they'd scream and yell about something that most Americans care about and arguably will save more lives.

Wasn't there a recent news story to the effect that something like six figures worth of lives per year are lost to direct effects of alcohol?
Intervention there might save more lives.

[JimD]

Wasn't there a recent news story to the effect that something like six figures worth of lives per year are lost to direct effects of alcohol?
Intervention there might save more lives.

Prohibition coupled with a semi-auto ban covered by a single piece of legislation. I like it. If only they'd done that before the midterms. Dems woulda kept the house for sure. Edited to add: But as long as they're going after both your guns and your booze they may as well throw in smokes and high fructose snacks and beverages.

[LeeG]

I’d rather fight for universal health care. On the gun control side of things focusing on restricting types of guns is kinda too late. Instead focus on making gun ownership like driving a car. Eff the dumbass 2 nd fundamentalists and their quasi religious delusions. You want to use or own a killing device then get tested,licensed and pay insurance. Moreso for pistols than long guns and sure, eventually phase out semi autos and restrict magazine size but the culture of America is steeped in fantasy violence without consequences. Our CMIC being a prime example.

[McMike]

Wasn't there a recent news story to the effect that something like six figures worth of lives per year are lost to direct effects of alcohol?
Intervention there might save more lives.

I suspect there are a lot more lives to be saved if we pass universal healthcare that includes dental, vision, and mental. If people could get proper intervention in hard times, imagine the amount of stress that can be mitigated, and therefor, less self-medicating and far fewer gun deaths I suspect. And for the record, I'm not advocating mental healthcare as a diversion from good gun control measures.