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Thread: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

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    Default NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    "The Supreme Court has granted an appeal which could see the voting age lowered to 16.After failing in the High Court and the Court of Appeal, the Make it 16 group took their case to the Supreme Court earlier this year.
    They argue that the voting laws are inconsistent with the Bill of Rights Act on the basis of age discrimination, and wanted the Courts to make a declaration of inconsistency.
    Justice Ellen France said the Court of Appeal was wrong not to make a declaration and have granted the appeal.
    Parliament recently passed a bill which means that any declaration of inconsistency that comes from the courts gets put up to special debate"

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...wer-voting-age

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Although the results of the case are required to be reviewed (as per the New Zealand Bill of Rights (Declarations of Inconsistency) Amendment Bill) by the Attorney General and the minister responsible (in this case Kiri Allan - Justice Minister, I believe), there's no way there will be a change to the law.

    Changes to electoral law require a 75% majority, and the current coalition do not enjoy that kind parliamentary advantage, and the two main opposition parties have said they would oppose any such change.

    There's a pretty good discussion about the process, but also the pros and cons of allowing 16 and 17 year-olds the vote in this article:

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/22...hat-comes-next

    I'm inclined to think that the younger population has more of a vested interest in the long-term decision-making of their government than those longer-in-the-tooth citizens that would likely oppose their inclusion. I'm also inclined to think that given the right, few would use it, the younger age groups typically having low levels of voter turnout.
    'When I leave I don't know what I'm hoping to find. When I leave I don't know what I'm leaving behind...'

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    "longer-in-the-tooth citizens" are prone to oppose most any reform regardless of the cause.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    The older I get the more my left leaning politics get tested.
    To some degree this ruling is an unintended consequence of the Bill of Rights act.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    I think it's because they(we) are so mentally and financially committed to the status quo they are scared of or cannot be fussed to think of changes.
    Conservative parties rely on it for thrie existence to an extent.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Our Green Party floated the idea of lowering the voting age to 16, assuming it would get them more votes. I'm against the idea. 16 is too young. Barely out of childhood. Some experience with adult responsibilities is required to make political decisions.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Our Green Party floated the idea of lowering the voting age to 16, assuming it would get them more votes. I'm against the idea. 16 is too young. Barely out of childhood. Some experience with adult responsibilities is required to make political decisions.
    I agree. But I also don’t think you should be allowed to vote when older. Let’s say 18-50 are the voting years. Too young=no knowledge. Too old=too much interest in keeping things the same.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    I agree. But I also don’t think you should be allowed to vote when older. Let’s say 18-50 are the voting years. Too young=no knowledge. Too old=too much interest in keeping things the same.
    50? No way. Far too young. I'd have lost the right to vote 17 years ago and I'm all (well mostly) about change. Many older people are fully capable of looking at the world as it is and seeing how much many things need to change. And many young people are incapable of appreciating the legitimate needs of the elderly.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    50? No way. Far too young. I'd have lost the right to vote 17 years ago and I'm all (well mostly) about change. Many older people are fully capable of looking at the world as it is and seeing how much many things need to change. And many young people are incapable of appreciating the legitimate needs of the elderly.

    And people below 16 say they are capable of making rational decisions. Same same.

    The reality is that most older people are mostly set in their ways, and more concerned about their pensions and lifestyle preservation than progress. Progress mostly comes from youth.

    Oh, and I’m aged out too.

    I see you edited the last sentence out because it mostly supports my point. (And now it’s back in)
    Last edited by Decourcy; 11-21-2022 at 11:09 PM.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by Stiletto View Post
    The older I get the more my left leaning politics get tested.
    To some degree this ruling is an unintended consequence of the Bill of Rights act.
    I would trust in the voting wisdom of most any 16 year old as opposed to

    the Q-Anon, MAGA, insurrectionist loony tunes that make up a good 45% of the US electorate.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Changing the rule is one thing, getting the young actually to vote - well that's something different.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    I was going to say that the job of Civics in education………… but then I'm talking about rthe Dis-United States………..

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    That age (16) is all about hormones, nothing else. Crazy idea.

    During Parizeau's time in Quebec he tried to lower the voting age to 16 too. It would have resulted in change all right -- separation, and the break-up of the country.

    I like Nevil Shute's idea of multiple votes.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    given the current trajectory of our corporatocracy it won't be long before corporations can vote here in the united states
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    And people below 16 say they are capable of making rational decisions. Same same.

    The reality is that most older people are mostly set in their ways, and more concerned about their pensions and lifestyle preservation than progress. Progress mostly comes from youth.

    Oh, and I’m aged out too.

    I see you edited the last sentence out because it mostly supports my point. (And now it’s back in)
    You need to get your eyes checked Edited to add: And I reiterate that I think a cap at 50 would be a tragic mistake for any democracy.
    Last edited by JimD; 11-22-2022 at 12:57 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    ^ And I assure you my edits are either to correct typos or to clarify what I meant to say. It's not all about you, neighbour. Seriously.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    That age (16) is all about hormones, nothing else. Crazy idea. .
    But you have to take into account that Aotearoa yoot are more mature and smarter than US or Canadian adults.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    More supreme court madness is all.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    ^ And I assure you my edits are either to correct typos or to clarify what I meant to say. It's not all about you, neighbour. Seriously.
    When I was composing, but before I posted my response, your original post, just above, had the last line clipped out. My assumption was that you had edited it just after I had quoted you.

    and you’re wrong. It is about me, always



    And people start losing their marbles starting around 40 or 45, so 50 was pretty generous, I thought.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    How about this instead:

    Anyone that shows up at a voting booth and can answer a couple of simple questions about all the candidates and their policies gets to vote. Don’t know anything other than who has the best hair? No vote for you.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    I sure as hell wouldn't do it. 16 year olds barely know their butts from their elbows.

    However, I was all in favor of lowering the voting age from 21 to 18 years ago, for the very cogent reason that if they can be drafted and sent off to war, then they damn well better have a say about it.

    Other than 16 yr olds being allowed driver's permits, I don't get it.
    Gerard>
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    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Are 16 year olds eligible for voluntary euthanasia in New Zeland?

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    When I was composing, but before I posted my response, your original post, just above, had the last line clipped out. My assumption was that you had edited it just after I had quoted you.

    and you’re wrong. It is about me, always



    And people start losing their marbles starting around 40 or 45, so 50 was pretty generous, I thought.
    Hmmmm, I don't think I even started finding my marbles until I was around 40 or 45. It was the previous 20 or 25 years they shouldn't have let me vote.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Hmmmm, I don't think I even started finding my marbles until I was around 40 or 45. It was the previous 20 or 25 years they shouldn't have let me vote.
    Well, you see….you think you found your marbles because you’ve forgotten what you used to know!

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Well, there's the small issue that at 16 you can leave school, get a job and pay tax.

    What was that thing about taxation without representation?
    'When I leave I don't know what I'm hoping to find. When I leave I don't know what I'm leaving behind...'

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    How about this instead:

    Anyone that shows up at a voting booth and can answer a couple of simple questions about all the candidates and their policies gets to vote. Don’t know anything other than who has the best hair? No vote for you.
    That's not a bad idea. Informed citizens get to vote. The rest can go stew in their ignorance and forfeit the opportunity to screw up the country they know nothing about.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    How about this instead:
    Anyone that shows up at a voting booth and can answer a couple of simple questions about all the candidates and their policies gets to vote. Don’t know anything other than who has the best hair? No vote for you.
    That policy part would exclude a solid majority of US Republican voters.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Most voters period actually.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    Quote Originally Posted by Decourcy View Post
    How about this instead:

    Anyone that shows up at a voting booth and can answer a couple of simple questions about all the candidates and their policies gets to vote. Don’t know anything other than who has the best hair? No vote for you.
    I think our southern states used to employ that technique.

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    ^ Well nailed, by a man who knows his history.

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    Default Re: NZ supreme court favours votes for 16 year olds

    My mother in law voted for Trudeau because he had nice hair. I kid you not. Thatís kind of sad.


    I think a 16 year old that knows the policies of the candidates has more right to vote that her. Knowledge, not age, should be the criteria

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