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Thread: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBTC View Post
    I grasp your needs because I have a big family

    I'm not a builder so I can't advise on the difficulty of building one or another.

    A prom nose would be great to get volume in a short boat. I just don't know of any in the 14 foot range (they seem to be either shorter, as tenders, or longer as row/sail boats (Seil 18). There is a Nuthatch pram on the Duckworks site but I don't know anything about it.

    I would throw in an Arch Davis Penobscot 14 just because I personally find it so pretty.
    Sounds like what the Sanfancisco Pelican was designed for.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Haven’t read every post here, but Welsford’s Houdini comes to mind. 13’ if I recall and pretty burdensome. Might not fit quite all of your criteria but close.

    edit: just checked, 13’2” loa, 5’10” beam
    You could probably stretch it to 14’
    Last edited by dalekidd; 11-22-2022 at 08:33 AM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    I'll give a little pushback on the thought that 3 on a 14 foot boat is impossible. WI-Tom (whom I admire a ton) is right that 3 in his boat would be miserable. But his boat is made for easy single handed rowing, which is the opposite of having crew. A good suggestion would be to look for a 14 foot boat that would be miserable to row--that's the one you want to sail (occasionally) with a crew of 3 adults.

    We had a farewell sail in our O-Day 15 before we sold her with all 7 of my family in her. I would not want to go out often like that, and certainly not ever in sporty winds, but my experience with my family is that if you want crew, and they want to sail, there are boats for that. If I really want to get on my soapbox, I will point out that people want the small boat world to grow, but then keep indicating that they really prefer to sail alone. Those are contradictory statements. But today is a Monday, so I'll stay away from my soapbox

  4. #39

    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Have you checked out John Welsfords Saturday Night Special?
    Fits your brief very closely though your 3 person capacity is always goin to get crowded in a 14 foot boat.
    Prepared to go outside the box?
    Start with Bolger Catfish plans and knock 6 inches off each end.
    Its got the beam you really need to do your thing inside 14 feet.
    Wayne
    Fremantle
    Australia

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Just an FYI - Chase Small Craft has an exclusive agreement on kits with F. Vivier Architecte Naval - for the ILUR, MORBIC 12, and the JEWELL 6m. This only pertains to US market, of course.

    Thanks,
    Clint Chase

    Quote Originally Posted by Priscilla View Post
    The relative ease of build for the Morbic 12 was a big factor in driving my choice.
    I purchased from Francois the CNC cutting files along with the build instructions I then delivered 8 sheets of marine plywood and 4 sheets of MDF to a local company who did a sterling job with the CNC work and I now have in my workspace a rather large Airfix styled flat pack boat.
    Included in the cutting file pack was a building spine and moulds also handily a cradle to sit her in once upright hence the MDF.
    We sold our cruising yacht a few moons ago and my wife had a series of complex operations with a long period of recuperation attached so we relocated to a lifestyle block with a view of the upper reaches of the local harbour.
    I wanted a smallish light and therefore manageable craft that I can row motor and sail locally but also with an eye to traversing the many available waterways that are on offer here in Aotearoa.
    Verviers Morbic design has its roots as a utilitarian working boat and my efforts will be along those lines too.
    As to the size we are a couple and 3 up in my opinion would really not really be that practicable unless you have a family history stacked with Leprecians.
    Attachment 123627Attachment 123629
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Fun conundrum. If picking the right boat is high on your list of concerns you know life is good!

    I am in the same spot - dazzled by the array of choices. I currently sail/row/paddle a Joel White Shellback. Great boat - but looking for more space. Two designs have been mentioned that I would like to draw focus to.

    1) SCAMP: A group of people far smarter than I asked basically the same question to a modern designer with great talent. He sharpened his pencil and came up with SCAMP. So I keep getting drawn back to that one.
    2) Oonagh by Doug Hylan: Looks simpler than some of the other designs. Width actually lets it possibly sail with 4 - a bit crowded I am sure.

    I like the idea of revisiting or reweighing the length limitation. My boat-de-jour is Vivier's Seil 18. Stemless build, boomless sail, motor friendly stern, room for 6!

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton B Chase View Post
    Just an FYI - Chase Small Craft has an exclusive agreement on kits with F. Vivier Architecte Naval - for the ILUR, MORBIC 12, and the JEWELL 6m. This only pertains to US market, of course.

    Thanks,
    Clint Chase
    Hi Clint, thanks for the information about your kits.
    FYI the costs for the DIY Morbic 12 kit including purchasing the build plans and CNC files from Francois V, marine plywood, MDF for the mould and CNC machining amounted to $2500.00 Kiwi roubles excl tax and a bit of running around.
    Last edited by Priscilla; 11-22-2022 at 02:15 PM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Lots of great suggestions above but if you're looking for one that will be a quick build and checks off all your boxes, take a look at Jimmy Skiff II from CLC. Available in a kit or plans. I bet you could get this done in less than a hundred hours, depending on finish. This all-rounder is high on my build list.

    https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/...-Skiff-II.html

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    This is the unavoidable inevitable truth of it in my experience.

    Another one:

    You may be fooling yourself that you can even find one or two adults to sail with you, or that you will be happy that you did find them, if you do. I've found that most people think "sailing" means you take them out for a ride in your boat, and they sit there and enjoy the ride, while you do all the sailing. Then they quickly discover:

    In boats of this size, "comfort" is a relative term. If there are seats at all--often it's best to sail small boats sitting on a cushion on the bottom of the boat--they will be low, and narrow. And there will be very little room aboard to stretch out and sit in comfort. The sail will be in the way, flopping and waving around and getting in their face at (for them) unexpected moments. If the rig has a boom, they'll be worrying about it hitting their head. Or worse, they'll be oblivious to the fact that there are times when it probably will hit them in the head if they are in the wrong place.

    They will also quickly discover that sailing can be hot. A bimini or sunshade on a small boat is an extreme rarity. Conversely, it can be very cold and windy. In Texas, it can be very very hot and very very windy, a combination that can really take a toll on people.

    They will also quickly discover that sailing in small boats is boring, unless you are at the tiller. (This isn't so bad if your crew will be experienced sailors, as in that case they can at least watch you at the tiller and think about--or TALK about--how much better they'd be doing it if they were at the tiller). On light-wind days there is not much happening. Conversely, on big-wind days, there is too much happening, and it will be very scary. And again, unless they are experienced sailors, everything the boat does will be scary and unpredictable and unconducive to comfort. They will be thinking "Is the boat supposed to lean that much? Is the sail supposed to do that? Why is the sail moving from this side to that side now?" and many many other things.

    They will get wet, and they won't like it. Because sailing in small boats is SLOW. Slow as in "that old lady on shore with her walker is going faster than we are" kind of slow. Which is too bad, because they will realize that this sailing business is going to go on a LOT longer than they had imagined when you invited them. And they won't like it. And they will have to go to the bathroom. And there are no bathrooms on small boats.

    They will sit in the wrong place, throwing off the boat's trim in a way that is utterly maddening to you, and they will be completely oblivious to it because they have no idea what a properly trimmed boat should feel like. They will be annoyed when you ask them to shift one way or another, and they do, and you tell them "No, that's too far" and they move back a bit and now it's too far the other way and you tell them and this gets repeated a few times and by then you are both annoyed.

    If your passengers are the type who want to try being at the tiller themselves, they will get everything wrong at first. And they won't know it. But you will. And it will be annoying.

    If you are not already a fairly experienced sailor, you will quickly find that those little things you aren't quite sure about what to do, or how to do it, or when, become MUCH more difficult with a passenger on board. And while you are trying to figure out the best way to do them without clobbering your passengers with the boom or capsizing the boat, your passengers will either be getting in the way or making things more difficult, or they will be scared because it will be obvious even to them that you aren't quite sure about these things, and they will begin to pepper you with fearful questions at exactly the wrong time. And those questions will increase your own uncertainties about your abilities. Just as meekness enrages bees, uncertainty angers the gods of the sea, and you and your passengers may invite a smiting.

    And by now your passengers are ready to be done sailing, and want to be back at the dock. Now. But you've just spent 45 minutes sailing and are now a half mile away from the dock (did I mention that sailing is slow), and because you started out with the downwind leg, or the wind shifted, or whatever, it will now be 2 hours before you are back at the ramp.

    By the time you do get back, you will find that you no longer need a boat that holds 2-3 adults.

    A far better plan, in my estimation, is to get your friends to build their own d@mn boats. Then you'll have people to sail with but you won't be stuck with being responsible for passengers who don't really like sailing anyway, at least not as passengers.

    The real truth is, being a passenger on a small boat is BORING. And if your friends are going to be more than passive freight, then they need their own boats anyway.

    Just one opinion. But an opinion based on (at this point) a fair number of miles sailing. Mostly alone. (I wonder why that is?)

    Best of luck!

    Tom
    This is one of the best and funniest posts I have read in a long time!! Good one, Tom.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario


    Oonagh/Arriba as seen in the September issue of Small Boats. 11'-8"x5'-0". Looks to me like you could easily have a couple of friends along. If I was thinking about building another small boat instead of a big one, this would be a real contender.
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by dalekidd View Post
    This is one of the best and funniest posts I have read in a long time!! Good one, Tom.

    I completely agree, it's not only completely true but also hilarious.

    Passengers in small boats are generally a pain in the @$$ and they generally don't enjoy it unless they are unusually patient, understanding , flexible and really want to enjoy it. Which my girlfriend was (she was never going to learn anything but she had grown to be a little aware and enjoythe experience) till we were almost run down on her birthday.
    Now my sailing no longer involves huge spikes in my already high blood pressure.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Yes, it can be soul crushingly dull to be passengers. These poor folk are bored to tears!
    F54FE0FB-3FEF-46ED-9A3E-F96DFFFB1FFB.jpg
    5840AB7E-CC5E-4528-960D-C920591081FE.jpg
    24FB92E6-3F02-4671-9A01-2D7047582669.jpg
    EA39C26A-1BCB-4205-AD3B-2088723F5829.jpg
    Just press them into service, and settle back to have a seltzer and a biscuit, or take some pictures.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Here, the fellow in the top photo of my last post is at the helm of Scout while her owner goes forward. The poor helmsman is having trouble staying awake, he’s so bored.33EA751F-E470-4CDE-AA60-EFE01138C87C.jpg

    And these poor souls, all sorry they were invited and wishing they were elsewhere:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by John hartmann; 11-23-2022 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Image added

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    So this thread is devolving into a discussion of what it is like to sail a small boat with passengers. Very interesting.

    I finished a Penobscot 14 about one year ago and have completed two sailing "seasons," which where I live is late March to end of May, and the fall equivalent. The boat is stored indoors other times. Basically we went sailing whenever it was dry and just a little windy. Lots of times it is too windy or not at all windy. So we have been out in it about 30 times and have learned to sail it now.

    What we found (wife and I) is that the passenger's function is to be movable ballast. This boat only weighs 175 pounds, so shifting one of the people a few inches laterally trims or untrims the boat by 10 or 15 degrees. All movements have to be coordinated, like, "I'm moving to be here, so you compensate by moving there, 1-2-3 go." The key to sailing with passengers is sailing upwind from your launch spot then letting them call when it is time to head back to the dock. At that point you can get back pretty quick on a straight downwind or broad reach from wherever you are. One guy I have sailed with a few times loves it, and it is me who gets done first and decides to call it.

    We also found out it is very difficult to recover from a capsize, so the Prime Directive is to never do that. We did spend a day drilling capsize and recover, and the boat is equipped for it and we know the procedure.

    MakoShark check your PMs.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by dt123 View Post
    So this thread is devolving into a discussion of what it is like to sail a small boat with passengers. Very interesting.

    I finished a Penobscot 14 about one year ago and have completed two sailing "seasons," which where I live is late March to end of May, and the fall equivalent. The boat is stored indoors other times. Basically we went sailing whenever it was dry and just a little windy. Lots of times it is too windy or not at all windy. So we have been out in it about 30 times and have learned to sail it now.

    What we found (wife and I) is that the passenger's function is to be movable ballast. This boat only weighs 175 pounds, so shifting one of the people a few inches laterally trims or untrims the boat by 10 or 15 degrees. All movements have to be coordinated, like, "I'm moving to be here, so you compensate by moving there, 1-2-3 go." The key to sailing with passengers is sailing upwind from your launch spot then letting them call when it is time to head back to the dock. At that point you can get back pretty quick on a straight downwind or broad reach from wherever you are. One guy I have sailed with a few times loves it, and it is me who gets done first and decides to call it.

    We also found out it is very difficult to recover from a capsize, so the Prime Directive is to never do that. We did spend a day drilling capsize and recover, and the boat is equipped for it and we know the procedure.

    MakoShark check your PMs.
    I think the passenger discussion was inevitable when two factors for the boat are under 14 and an occasional crew of a wife and two kids.

    I love the Penobscot 14, but it was meant to be a good rowing craft. I think those characteristics make it tippier to sail, even with 1 or 2. I would not suggest it to the OP, even though he would have a grin every time he saw it because it is so beautiful. It seems to me that a lot of sailors pick a boat that is only meant for 1 or 2 and then declare that small sailboats can't handle a crew. I think that is false, just as it would be false if I had a Hartley TS-16 or Devon yawl and said that all 16 foot sailboats cannot be easily rowed.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    Yes, it can be soul crushingly dull to be passengers. These poor folk are bored to tears!
    Ah, yes, another inevitable truth about sailing: no one person's experience is indicative of the whole. And no way can sailing be as un-fun as my comments on this thread suggest, or none of us would be doing it, right?

    Thanks for the reminder about the good side of passengers aboard, John. Looks like a lot of fun. Even I have had a few people aboard with me who have enjoyed themselves.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    I completely agree, it's not only completely true but also hilarious.

    Passengers in small boats are generally a pain in the @$$ and they generally don't enjoy it unless they are unusually patient, understanding , flexible and really want to enjoy it. Which my girlfriend was (she was never going to learn anything but she had grown to be a little aware and enjoythe experience) till we were almost run down on her birthday.
    Now my sailing no longer involves huge spikes in my already high blood pressure.
    Quote Originally Posted by dalekidd View Post
    This is one of the best and funniest posts I have read in a long time!! Good one, Tom.
    Thanks for the comments. I had a lot of fun writing that--it certainly seems to be a pretty good description of how things tend to go aboard my boats.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBTC View Post
    I'll give a little pushback on the thought that 3 on a 14 foot boat is impossible. WI-Tom (whom I admire a ton) is right that 3 in his boat would be miserable. But his boat is made for easy single handed rowing, which is the opposite of having crew. A good suggestion would be to look for a 14 foot boat that would be miserable to row--that's the one you want to sail (occasionally) with a crew of 3 adults.

    We had a farewell sail in our O-Day 15 before we sold her with all 7 of my family in her. I would not want to go out often like that, and certainly not ever in sporty winds, but my experience with my family is that if you want crew, and they want to sail, there are boats for that. If I really want to get on my soapbox, I will point out that people want the small boat world to grow, but then keep indicating that they really prefer to sail alone. Those are contradictory statements. But today is a Monday, so I'll stay away from my soapbox
    And the comments about "miserable to row" for a larger crew seem like a great starting point. Not only Houdini, but possibly also Welsford's Truant design? A big beamy tubby short fat boat with high freeboard might be just the ticket.

    I found Scamp to be good for 2 people, crowded with more. My boat's actually pretty good for 3 people (it's long enough to stay out of each other's way), but two of them really do have to kind of know what they're doing.

    Tom
    Ponoszenie konsekwencji!

    www.tompamperin.com

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    The requirements make me think of a Göteborgeseka. Designed just after the war as an easy and cheap to build yet reasonably capable sailboat for two though they are said to carry three. Solid softwood possibly with oak transoms. No plank that cannot be cut from an 8 inch board. Hot water and rags are enough for the moderate bend of the planking.
    The design was ordered by the Sailing Club of Gothenburg as a means of recruiting new members among the less wealthy and to get youngsters into sailing. As cheap and simple as possible was the key.

    Drawings available for free
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a8kzg4ooptbrigg/AAB868eqgJrqpc2H3YDLbvRDa?dl=0


    In those days no scantlings and few construction details were given in the drawings but I just rebuilt a well made Göteborgseka för a customer so I can supply you with all measurements and photos of construction details you want.
    Last edited by heimlaga; 11-24-2022 at 04:14 PM.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Apologies for leaving the thread for so long! Came down with a nasty seasonal bug Friday that pretty much wiped me out over the weekend!

    Not going to try to answer every post, but thanks so much for all the great responses, guys! A wealth of information, for sure!

    Cason, Tx is about 2 hrs east of the Dallas-Fortworth Metro, about an hour south of the Arkansas-Texas border. Piney Woods area, with lots of little lakes (and a few big ones).


    Judging from the discussion, it looks like I may be hunting a white whale here! Glad I started it, though; I've gotten a lot of links to great boats and a few designers I'd never heard of before. I'm really loving the number of "quick-and-dirty" boats alongside absolutely gorgeous traditional craft!

    The variation of opinions on the "boats with passengers" is cracking me up. I'm a loner by nature, but part of a huge family by raising, so I'm perfectly happy off by myself or packed in with fellow passengers like sardines. I guess at the end of the day it's just down to how each design will handle it's load. It mostly boils down to my attitude "passengers are either crew or cargo". Help, sit still, or get tossed overboard when it's convenient for the captain!

    All in all, I think I'm leaning toward one of the simpler to build boats to get me on the water quick, then build a longer (larger) traditional-style boat for my longer term goals.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    if you want to get on the water quick, then buy a used boat. They are a dime a dozen. Primarily I believe of the fantasy of sailing vs the passenger, cargo issues laid out here.

    Get out on the water quick then spend your boat building time on the boat you want, or not. You may decide it’s not for you or you like the used boat.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    if you want to get on the water quick, then buy a used boat. They are a dime a dozen. Primarily I believe of the fantasy of sailing vs the passenger, cargo issues laid out here.

    Get out on the water quick then spend your boat building time on the boat you want, or not. You may decide it’s not for you or you like the used boat.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    i don’t know that reply was posted twice.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Another boat on the simple/quick build end of the spectrum which might fit the bill—Mik Storer’s Oz Goose:
    https://www.opengoose.com/

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    I had to think about this requirement for a few days before answering. Let's see -

    1) Sailboat.

    2) Easy build

    3) Under 14 feet.

    4) Simple rig, shallow draft.

    5) Carries three adults.

    6) No cabin, but dry, comfortable and can be used as a camp cruiser.

    Simple!

    Bolgers Old Shoe.

    Many reports have this little boat holding up to four adults comfortably, and she is safe, dry and a surprising good sailor.




    Product (common-sense-boats.com)

    PICTURES - LINES
    PLANS PAGE
    DESCRIPTION

    • LENGTH - 11'7"
    • BEAM - 5'1"
    • EMPTY WEIGHT - 450 lbs
    • DRAFT - 1'3"
    • BALLAST - 200 lb Lead
    • DISPLACEMENT - 821 lbs
    • SAIL AREA - 91 SQ FT
    • SLEEPS - 2 Adults on Seats
    • DAY SAILS - Up to 3 Adults
    • POWER - Sail, Row, 1-3 HP Outboard
    • BUILDING TECHNIQUE - Instant Boat Building
    • MATERIAL - 9 Sheets 1/4" Plywood, Framing Lumber, Epoxy, Fiberglass Tape
    • WHAT YOU RECEIVE (PDF) - Plans and Manual sent by E-Mail. Take to printer and have them printed out.
    • PRICE PDF - $80.00

    -----



    Background: The boat is kept in a slip on Lake Champlain. This lake is big: about 10 miles across and 100 miles long (but very skinny at the ends). It is deep (400'), bordered by mountains in some areas; has few sandy beaches and many solid rock shores. Winds above 35Kt are very rare, total calm is common. The prevailing winds tend to blow lengthwise, so it can build up large waves. As the reviewer/builder/owner I sailed this boat for three months, but have owned a variety of sailboats for more years than I like to count. I occasionally race and cruise in larger boats. I tend to sail alone, and at 145lb am fairly light, but on several occasions have had three adults or two adults plus two kids onboard. I keep a Danforth anchor, chain, and 200' of 3/8 nylon line in the forward well, and a gallon of spare gas for the outboard in the after well.


    Bill's Oldshoe Report (duckworksmagazine.com)

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Best Boat... For This Specific Scenario

    Buying a boat in this area means either a jon-boat or a speed boat. It's possible to buy sailboats (usually up near Dallas) but they're invariably "plastic-fantastic" production boats that generally sail wet and are heavily overpriced. I've seen a few nice boats over the years, but they're insanely expensive and/or sold too fast for me to get an offer in.

    I'm probably going to build a PDr or OzGoose soon, just for the racing aspect. They're remarkable boats, regardless of your preferences in a sailing craft.

    Old Shoe! I think that may be the closest to my requirements brought to this thread yet. I've seen that design a time or two and her owners always seem to rave about it. She appears to be quite sensitive to sail trim for her behavior; almost seems to be a common theme amongst Bolger's sailing craft.

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