sitting vs standing and steering in sailboats under 20 feet

[gray duck]

Recently there was a thread about sitting comfortably in "very small boats". I often need to stand for back, butt whatever reason and have been wondering about cockpit design to allow seating and standing. I have steered standing up in sunfish, lasers, my shellback but that's usually only when going downwind and just for short periods. I'm working on an 18' design (yawl) but not totally committed - ie keeping other options open - Pathfinder for example. I've made three half models and three floating models and have lofted the lines of one of them. Basically, what I'm trying to do is make an 18'-foot boat that looks like a Bristol pilot cutter - think quest - DonQ. Basically, what I'm trying to do is make an 18' foot boat that looks like a Bristol pilot cutter - tiller steering.

Is there a waterline threshold for standing and steering? I rarely stand in our Catalina 22 but I think that's more because the seats are in the way.
Is there a type of hull and rig design (and length) that makes standing more plausible. I was thinking the yawl would give space to stand in front of the mizzen and I could make a curved well for different heeling angles.

Thanks

[StevenBauer]

My friend Chris almost always stood sailing his Caladonia Yawl. Same with callsign22 in his Goat Island Skiff and Sea Pearl.

[WI-Tom]

I stand and steer in my Alaska (18' whitehall) sometimes. Not a lot of initial stability--fairly slack bilges--so I don't stand when it's real wavy. But it's a nice option to have for long days aboard.

Tom

[Hugh MacD]

I used to stand steering a Thistle. Not while racing, of course, but sometimes ya just gotta get off your butt

[stromborg]

I frequently stand while sailing my Eun Mara (19'-9" LOD) and used to bring my Deer Isle Koster to the dock SUP-style. I think you want to look at form stabilty/beam at waterline not just length.

[AJZimm]

I don’t think there is a minimum length threshold for standing to steer a small boat. Howard Rice routinely stands to steer his 11’9” SCAMP, which he has rigged as a yawl. He is a big proponent of standing while steering to get a better feel for the balance of the boat.

I think you have touched on a few key considerations:
1. Being able to have a clear space to stand in a cockpit (or equivalent) area
2. Being comfortable while standing
3. Being able to comfortably reach the tiller while standing

My 18’ open sail and oar boat, Fire-Drake, was rigged as a standing lug yawl with a long push-pull tiller that allowed me to get forward and still reach the tiller while standing.

For what you are proposing, a yawl rig sounds good, and confers other handling benefits.

Not sure about the need for a curved cockpit sole. What angle of heel do you realistically plan to sail at? Most small boats unless they have heavy ballast keels, are unlikely to be sailed at much over 15 degrees. Do you need a curved sole for that? I’d be inclined, if you think you need it, to have a flat in the centre of the cockpit sole with a couple of foot-width flats at the right angle outboard of that. You’d have to think about how wide that sole is, as well.

Depending on the tiller arrangement, you might need an extension to use when standing

[wizbang 13]

You need to stand because of back/butt pain? Is that right ?
I think there is no "thresh hold". Sometimes I stand in our 8 foot pram .
Perhaps a steering system with a line that goes 'round the cockpit might help? Steer from most any place/position on the boat.
Or a spoonful of chopped tumeric on sailing days?

[John hartmann]

It is a most enjoyable way to sail, especially if there is room to stand without ducking under sails, sheets and such.
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[JimConlin]

I note that all the above photos show flat water.
Standing while sailing a small boat is a good way to get conked by a boom or fall overboard.

[stromborg]

I note that all the above photos show flat water.
Standing while sailing a small boat is a good way to get conked by a boom or fall overboard.

Good point

Caught while heading out for a mid-pandemic cruise. Note that my feet are about 12" below the waterline and my head would be 12" above the boom if I wasn't ducking under it.

[gray duck]

Wow! Thanks for all of the great responses and photos!
I will have to give the push pull steering more consideration. Safety points noted too.
Many thanks!

[John Meachen]

Have you taken a look at the Golant Gaffer?Not too far from the notion of a small pilot cutter and reasonably capacious,all things considered.

[Toxophilite]

I realized recently that I can easily stand while sailing my 12' Gartside 130 (weighs 180 lbs). I quite enjoy it. I probably wouldn't do it in challenging conditions as it be too much weight up high.

[gray duck]

JM - I had seen pics of the GG years ago but it had fallen off my radar - thanks!

[dbp1]

I think I've seen photos of people standing right forward of the mizzen mast on core sound 17s or 20s. I've never seen one in person, so don't actually know if there is clearance for the sprit boom to slam over without clipping you, but maybe?

[Yeadon]

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For small boat safety and handling (particularily in an unballasted boat) I think you need to be able to get up and move around, stand, sit, kneel, move forward, move back, and all very quickly. A push-pull tiller will get you there.

[John hartmann]

Tim, do you have some sort of mechanism to secure the Scandi tiller in place briefly while you are engaged elsewhere in the cockpit? I have used a Huntingford device to good effect on a traditional tiller, and I think I recall Alex arranging something to temporarily hold his push pull tiller on Fire Drake. Seems like it should be pretty easy, but the devil is always in the detail with such refinements.

[timber_cruiser]

For small boat safety and handling (particularily in an unballasted boat) I think you need to be able to get up and move around, stand, sit, kneel, move forward, move back, and all very quickly. A push-pull tiller will get you there.

I agree, and I learned that the length of the push pull rudder is important. I made mine long, but found I needed to trim mine just a bit to make sure I did not interfere with the main sheet. I can still reach forward as much as I need and control the rudder which I think is a big advantage, especially when sailing single handed.

[Yeadon]

Tim, do you have some sort of mechanism to secure the Scandi tiller in place briefly while you are engaged elsewhere in the cockpit? I have used a Huntingford device to good effect on a traditional tiller, and I think I recall Alex arranging something to temporarily hold his push pull tiller on Fire Drake. Seems like it should be pretty easy, but the devil is always in the detail with such refinements.

I do - I mortised out a shallow slot on the underside of the stick for a piece of bronze flatbar that has a series of holes drilled into it. They allow the bar to drop down into a small "saddle" that has a bronze screw with the head ground off. The stick itself is pretty heavy/dense and there's no need for a tie down of any sort. When I first made the keeper, I tried a tie down but didn't like how it added an extra step when I needed to grab the helm in a hurry for a course correction. Overall, it works pretty well and lets you sail hands-off under most points, though when the weather pipes up it's better to have the tiller and the sheet in your hand. But when the wind is 5 knots and you want to make a sandwich it's perfect.

I would venture there are seven or eight holes / positions letting you mess with the helm balance. I carved a small notch over the hole that represents dead center for the rudder.

I looked around for a photo but couldn't find one. If I have time tomorrow I'll get a photo or two.

Full credit of course goes to Eric Hvalsoe who first did this exact same thing on his Hvalsoe 16, Bandwagon.

[John hartmann]

Thanks, Tim. I thought you would have it well sorted. Fitting out the finer points of rigging and cockpit arrangements like this are some of my favorite aspects of dinghy cruising, as they require ample field testing. As practical solutions go, it seems that simple pleasures are often best. Looking forward to pictures as they become available.

[john welsford]

Recently there was a thread about sitting comfortably in "very small boats". I often need to stand for back, butt whatever reason and have been wondering about cockpit design to allow seating and standing. I have steered standing up in sunfish, lasers, my shellback but that's usually only when going downwind and just for short periods. I'm working on an 18' design (yawl) but not totally committed - ie keeping other options open - Pathfinder for example. I've made three half models and three floating models and have lofted the lines of one of them. Basically, what I'm trying to do is make an 18'-foot boat that looks like a Bristol pilot cutter - think quest - DonQ. Basically, what I'm trying to do is make an 18' foot boat that looks like a Bristol pilot cutter - tiller steering.

Is there a waterline threshold for standing and steering? I rarely stand in our Catalina 22 but I think that's more because the seats are in the way.
Is there a type of hull and rig design (and length) that makes standing more plausible. I was thinking the yawl would give space to stand in front of the mizzen and I could make a curved well for different heeling angles.

Thanks

My own current build, and there are around 40 sets of plans out there so far for that design, with at least three sailing, has as I am wont to do, had much thought put into the ergonomics of the cockpit and helm area. Long Steps has an area where its possible to stand at the helm, and even walk around a bit, she has normal seating just forward of that so the hand comes to the tiller naturally and a section of the cockpit floor there lifts, slides forward and leaves a footwell deep enough to be right for sitting at with the boat upright.
I'm planning to do some voyaging in this boat, so having a variety of positions to sit and stand when under way is important to the comfort quotient.

John Welsford