Why does the the right hate Nancy Pelosi?

[Durnik]

^ we already have 'Gov by Lobbyist' - as I pointed out, ALEX... they write laws, and Pols pass them.

I'm for changing that.. but pretending we don't already have it is self defeating.

[David G]

so how do you feel about presidential term limits?

as to term limits in Congress, perhaps yes, certainly eliminate federal retirement for elected positions.

one counter to your anti term limits argument is the so -called deep state, all the Hired people who know how the system works and keep it going. as to lobbyist 'writing laws', ALEX anyone? it's already that way... so I call strawman.

meanwhile, people like esp McConnell learn the system too well and warp it to their - not our - benefit.. so term limits are looking better all the time.

I'm fine with term limits for executives: president; governor; etc.

You seem to have strong opinions on such matters. Can I ask you the same questions I asked in #108?

[sandtown]

^ we already have 'Gov by Lobbyist' - as I pointed out, ALEX... they write laws, and Pols pass them..

It is a question of degree. Did you read the VOX article ??

Lobbyists have even more influence with term limits.

[sandtown]

Here is an experiment that you can try . . .

next time you are chatting with a right wing person who despises Pelosi ask them . .

"What policies did she pursue with which you disagree?"

They cannot tell you because they do not know . .

They despise her solely because they have been told to do so by the Reich Wing media.

[Durnik]

^ hell, I do one better.. I point out Pelosi is the person who in the House started the $2.1 trillion (which is really ultimately $6 trillion?) bill that went to McConnell and then 45 giving a Uge 'stimulus' to the ATFW/Ultra rich - who couldn't run out of money in 10 lifetimes with no further income - while giving next nothing to workers, meaning 'she was their gal, they should Love her'.. but of course, the truth is it's all identity politics.. Skins against the Shirts, Reds against the Blues, Reps against the Dems..

and that should help you too, David. half a century of watching the working/middle classes become the serf class while the ATFW (Skins & Shirts) profited by trillions even thru The Pandemic - ntm a runaway environmental mess essentially ignored by all - and there are still people who think 'our system is good'?

Damn, don't bogart that joint!

[David G]

I have questions for you. What life experience has formed such a pessimistic view? How closely involved have you personally been in the political process? Have you been an activist of some sort? A lobbyist? A volunteer in a political campaign? A legislative staffer? Worked in a govt. agency?

I've done several of those. And I've paid attention since 1966. And... unless Australia is WAY more corrupt than the U.S.... I can tell you that there are plenty of Dems who would agree to some or all of those changes. And maybe even a few R's.

I'm fine with term limits for executives: president; governor; etc.

You seem to have strong opinions on such matters. Can I ask you the same questions I asked in #108?

^ hell, I do one better.. I point out Pelosi is the person who in the House started the $2.1 trillion (which is really ultimately $6 trillion?) bill that went to McConnell and then 45 giving a Uge 'stimulus' to the ATFW/Ultra rich - who couldn't run out of money in 10 lifetimes with no further income - while giving next nothing to workers, meaning 'she was their gal, they should Love her'.. but of course, the truth is it's all identity politics.. Skins against the Shirts, Reds against the Blues, Reps against the Dems..

and that should help you too, David. half a century of watching the working/middle classes become the serf class while the ATFW (Skins & Shirts) profited by trillions even thru The Pandemic - ntm a runaway environmental mess essentially ignored by all - and there are still people who think 'our system is good'?

Damn, don't bogart that joint!

OK... 'watching' from what perspective?

I read a newspaper once? I served as a State Senator for a decade? My day job is Chief Of Staff for AOC? Something in between?

Right now, my impression is, you have little experience, perspective, or insight into the history or process. I agree with you that we're in a downward spiral. And that the wealthy & powerful are getting more so. And that this trend is toxic - in general and for a Republic in particular. Acton Dictum, and all of that. From what I can tell, however, we disagree about the depth of the rot, and the prognosis for recovery.

But I don't want to assume. I asked the specific questions so I'd get some idea of how you came to the worldview you have. Maybe you have more insight/perspective than I realize, and that would make me want to give more weight to your grumpiness. I always hold open the possibility that my interpretation of things is incorrect. Possibly over-optimistic. But your dodging those questions instead of answering straight up suggests not.

And how about you, sku? You haven't responded either.

[Keith Wilson]

I asked the specific questions so I'd get some idea of how you came to the worldview you have. Maybe you have more insight/perspective than I realize, and that would make me want to give more weight to your grumpiness. I always hold open the possibility that my interpretation of things is incorrect. Possibly over-optimistic. . . .

Or maybe not.

A Thanksgiving song for the occasion:

[David G]

<snort>

"We gather together to ask the Lord's blessing"

Thanksgiving day, Uncle Dave was our guest
He reads The Progressive which makes him depressed
We asked Uncle Dave if he'd like to say grace
A dark desolation crept over his face
"Thanks," he began as he gazed at his knife
"To poor Mr. Turkey for living his life
All crowded and cramped in a great metal shed
Where life was a drag then they cut off his head

"Thanks," he went on, "for the grapes in my wine
Picked by sick women of seventy-nine
Scrambling all morning for bunch after bunch
Then brushing the pesticides off of their lunch
Thanks for the stuffing all heaped on my fork
Shiny with sausage descended from pork
I think of the trucks full of full of pigs that I see
And can't help imagine what they think of me"

Continuing, "I'd like to thank if you please
Our salad bowl hacked out of tropical trees
And for this mahogany table and chair
We thank all the jungles that used to be there
For cream in our coffee and milk in our mugs
We thank all the cows full of hormones and drugs
Whose calves are removed at a very young age
And force-fed as veal in a minuscule cage

"Oh thanks for the furnace that heats up these rooms
And thanks for the rich fossil fuel it consumes
Corrupting the atmosphere ounce after ounce
But we're warm and toasty and that is what counts
I'm grateful," he said, "for these clothes on my back
Lovely and comfy and cheap off the rack
Fashioned in warehouses noisy and cold
In China by seamstresses seven years old

"And thanks for my silverware setting that shines
In memory of miners who died in the mines
Worn down by the shoveling of tailings in piles
Whose runoff destroys all the rivers for miles
We thank the reactors for our chandelier
Although the plutonium won't disappear
For hundreds of decades it still will be there
But a few more Chernobyls and who's gonna care?"

Sighed Uncle Dave, "though there's more to be told
The wine's getting warm and the bird's getting cold"
And with that he sat down as he mumbled again
"Thank you for everything, amen"
We felt so guilty when he was all thru
It seemed there was one of two things we could do
Live without food, in the nude, in a cave
Or next year have someone say grace besides Dave

[Durnik]

Thanks (for not a thing), Keith.. as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez replied to a likewise extreme 'well, what do you want', - 'somewhere between this extreme and that extreme might be nice'.

I've lived around and with many in the last half century David.. those with literally nothing.. and those with overwhelmingly too much. and all exist here in these not so united states. in AOC's life's experiences I see possibility. let that be your guide.. or not.

so we've seen a case of lobbyist getting too much power when we act to control out of control power by legislators.. that's a separate point, needing its own solution. failing to act on what gifted the likes of McConnell with too much power has given us our present calamitous situation.

So, what say YOU? do note I offer no strawman.

[sandtown]

I would say that a bigger problem in the US is that the Exec branch is the one with too much power . .

in fact, there is a literature on that very subject.

[David G]

I would say that a bigger problem in the US is that the Exec branch is the one with too much power . .

in fact, there is a literature on that very subject.

Does the literature suggest that it's am imbalance baked in by the founding documents... or developed by a slow abdication by elected politicians... or something else?

[sandtown]

Does the literature suggest that it's am imbalance baked in by the founding documents... or developed by a slow abdication by elected politicians...

The latter, partly due to the expansion of the size of the Exec branch under FDR, but mostly as a result of the rise of the Military-Industrial Complex.

Google "imperial presidency" for a look at the lit on the subject.

Of course, the Drumph took it to a whole new and dangerous level.

[skuthorp]

Power once assumed is seldom relinquished.

[John Smith]

I've been thinking about this thread. I think hate needs a target, and Pelosi became that target for the right. Being a competent woman made her a pretty good pick for being that target.

[LeeG]

Here’s one example how some capitalize on binary thinking and fomenting division. TFG former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Pg4QI5H4M

[David G]

Power once assumed is seldom willingly relinquished.

ftfy

[David G]

The latter, partly due to the expansion of the size of the Exec branch under FDR, but mostly as a result of the rise of the Military-Industrial Complex.

Google "imperial presidency" for a look at the lit on the subject.

Of course, the Drumph took it to a whole new and dangerous level.

Thanks. From what little I know on the topic, there are various academics taking various positions on the topic, the causes, and the ramifications. So you subscribe to the 'imperial presidency' school of thought?

[David G]

I've been thinking about this thread. I think hate needs a target, and Pelosi became that target for the right. Being a competent woman made her a pretty good pick for being that target.

True. But the reality is... they could gin up something to focus on for pretty much any target. And they'd be successful. Because propaganda works. Because 'true believers' (have you read Eric Hoffer?) have a certain sort of psychology that makes them susceptible to such misinformation. Because people in general are prone to tribalism, and we tend to be receptive to what OUR side says, and skeptical of what the OTHER says.

[David G]

Study The Past.jpg

[CWSmith]

True. But the reality is... they could gin up something to focus on for pretty much any target. And they'd be successful. Because propaganda works. Because 'true believers' (have you read Eric Hoffer?) have a certain sort of psychology that makes them susceptible to such misinformation. Because people in general are prone to tribalism, and we tend to be receptive to what OUR side says, and skeptical of what the OTHER says.

This is the basic truth of today's political system. When imperfect human beings try to work together, it becomes easy for someone to use various forms of character assassination. The question should be "Do we understand imperfection?" and I'm afraid we don't.

Let's not forget what happened to Al Franken. That was a case of the left turning on their own and I still have not seen any evidence of real wrongdoing.

[sandtown]

Thanks. From what little I know on the topic, there are various academics taking various positions on the topic, the causes, and the ramifications. So you subscribe to the 'imperial presidency' school of thought?

It is clear that the US Exec expanded in both size and power, but there is less agreement as to why.

[sandtown]

This is related, though it is about HRC and not Ms. Peolsi . . .

The New York Times quietly enables the hate . .

https://occupydemocrats.com/2022/02/...9l4XAKpbRuez-E

[HRDavies]

Along with her love of wars - any war will do - this is the kind of thing the two-faced Ms Pelosi historically engages in :

https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...ng-the-workers

if you know anything abouot the situation with railroad workers, you'll understand why this should bring serious discontent with both the Biden and Pelosi people. At the podium they are all power to the people but in that back room, what the heck, money talks.

[George Jung]

Unworkable, for the economy, to allow a railstrike at this juncture - it would be devastating. Explains President Bidens/Pelosi's stance, and response. However - Ms. Pelosi is shining the spotlight on 'the cause' of this issue, disagreement - and forcing a voice vote to an amendment to this bill - recommending paid leave for employees, apparently one of the major sticking points. It is the Republicans who have opposed this. It's important for the workers to know, exactly, who is not supporting their needs.

[Durnik]

Originally Posted by HRDavies

Along with her love of wars - any war will do -

What silly fluffiness.

No, I wouldn't call HRC's love of military action 'fluffiness'..


meanwhile -

"It's important for the workers to know, exactly, who is not supporting their needs."

Joe Biden, the 'union president', is not supporting the unions.

Wait!

Did I say Biden was the 'union president'??

hmmm..

from - "salon.com/2019/06/19/joe-biden-to-rich-donors-nothing-would-fundamentally-change-if-hes-elected/"

“I mean, we may not want to demonize anybody who has made money,” he said. “The truth of the matter is, you all, you all know, you all know in your gut what has to be done. We can disagree in the margins but the truth of the matter is it’s all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No one’s standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change.”

well, that's awkward.

meanwhile the shipping industry is enjoying (y'all might want to sit down for this earth shaker.. 0-: ) record profits (Profits, _not_ revenue..) made on the literal backs of workers.. and it's been calculated that worker offers (not demands.. it is the industry demanding from the workers) would take only a fraction of those profits.. meaning the ATFW 'investors' who suck the life bloo.. er, take the lions share of the wealth in this nation would still take the lions share of the wealth. This is (Surprise!) greed, pure & simple.. & Biden, the 'union president'.. is shafting the union to support the ATFW he previously sold his soul too.

but hey, Too Big To Fail doesn't apply to individuals.. they - we - get to die.

[HRDavies]

Unworkable, for the economy, to allow a railstrike at this juncture - it would be devastating.

Well we certainly wouldn't want to force the railroads to allow days off for sickness ! That would be devastating ! They'd have to hire a few more people !

[sandtown]

Well we certainly wouldn't want to force the railroads to allow days off for sickness ! That would be devastating ! They'd have to hire a few more people !

Oh, the humanity !!

(Insert image of the Hindenburg blowing up . . . )

[Chip-skiff]

It's a longstanding tradition.

[Durnik]

in pic-to-meme form..

20221203_135156.jpg

istr seeing elsewhere 15 sick days would only cost $440m..

[sandtown]

in pic-to-meme form.. .

My main man Bobbie Reich is a national treasure . . .

And BTW, the Econ Dept. at UC Berkeley has a number of other stellar stars with big hearts as well.

[skuthorp]

I have questions for you. What life experience has formed such a pessimistic view? How closely involved have you personally been in the political process? Have you been an activist of some sort? A lobbyist? A volunteer in a political campaign? A legislative staffer? Worked in a govt. agency?

I've done several of those. And I've paid attention since 1966. And... unless Australia is WAY more corrupt than the U.S.... I can tell you that there are plenty of Dems who would agree to some or all of those changes. And maybe even a few R's.

Sorry this has taken a while David, I missed your post.
I have been interested and active in our politics most of my life, and I first joined a Party at 13-14. I have participated in more campaigns than I can remember, been a member of 3-4 parties (the Parties left me not them or disappeared). I wa active in the Union movement for most of my working life, a delegate to conferences both as a union organiser and a member of a political party. All voluntary. But I have never had any delusions about the process or the contradictions of principle involved in any of it. Factionalism and power broking always overode principles except on the rare occasions that they coincided, or that the popular opinion was too strong to be ignored even by the RW press.
Politically I am a cynic because of experience in the machine. I never stood for a major party though the offer was extended because I was not prepared to compromise my principles for self or political advantage.
At just on 80 I am more of a spectator, and a little more hopeful locally than I have been for a long while. But I am very aware that despite the efforts of hundreds of well meaning people, the pirates are still in charge of the treasury, and I wonder why I bothered. Humans are their own worst enemies.

[sandtown]

term limits are looking better all the time.

Only if you want government by lobbyist, as a whole bunch of research has shown.

The right in the US always starts blathering about term limits as a distraction whenever the subject of money in politics comes up.

[Chip-skiff]

Term limits for the Supreme Court might be a good idea.

[Ernest_Voss]

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