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Thread: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Our local tire store known for very affordable and sometimes cheap tires has been inconsistent in tightening lug nuts. That’s the last of my tangents today.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    This thread is a great example of what is wrong with The Bilge.

    Some men are pigs. Some bend over backwards to appease people who are looking for an excuse to accuse them of being pigs. Most men actually treat women with respect and ignore both extremes.

    Some women lie and cheat on their husbands, having sex with other men and passing off their kids as his. Do we say, "Women are sluts?" No, we don't!

    Please, this over-the-top labeling is nauseating. And the next time someone says, "Humans are a blight on the Earth and it will be better when we are all gone." I'll just say, "You first."
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Hmmmm.....
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    This thread is a great example of what is wrong with The Bilge.

    Some men are pigs. Some bend over backwards to appease people who are looking for an excuse to accuse them of being pigs. Most men actually treat women with respect and ignore both extremes.

    Some women lie and cheat on their husbands, having sex with other men and passing off their kids as his. Do we say, "Women are sluts?" No, we don't!

    Please, this over-the-top labeling is nauseating. And the next time someone says, "Humans are a blight on the Earth and it will be better when we are all gone." I'll just say, "You first."
    Hmmm indeed.

    I think what Rebecca Solnit is writing about is how invisible this kind of sexism is. To men. And that women have to put up with it all the time, from many many men. The vast majority of whom are unaware of it. Because they can afford to be. So I don't think your belief that this is just "some men" matches reality as women live it. The patriarchy has been around a long long time. It's deeply entrenched. And it's in the (perceived) interest of men for it to stay in place. Which means it's very likely that men will tend to be unaware of the many small acts that reinforce it. But women aren't so likely to remain unaware of it.

    While it's comforting to believe that "most men are decent" (I tend to agree with that) means that "most men don't treat women in a sexist manner as described"--I think there's plenty of reason to doubt that claim.

    Also, pay attention to what she is saying about the cumulative nature of the many many small incidences--how they add up to something that is no longer small, in any way whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    There's a simple solution for Detweiler, she can simply tell the interfering man to f*ck off, and go about her business.
    Yep. She can. She can do that once. Twice. Maybe a hundred times. But are you paying any attention at all to this?

    They discussed the defensiveness belittlement generates, the sense that you need to brandish your credentials and qualifications in the face of this, which happens when you’re treated over and over as incompetent, and of how a lifetime of it can breed undeserved self-doubt. One wondered if other women get, “an additional sense of demoralised deflation afterwards, even though the intellect tells you to ignore the subtle put down?,” adding that “sometimes it just wipes me out even though I know I’m capable and accomplished”.
    Men don't face that kind of cumulative belittlement. So, they tend to have little awareness of how it can and does affect people in the long run.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Where’s Bernadette, with all the mansplaining going on in this thread?
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post

    Men don't face that kind of cumulative belittlement. So, they tend to have little awareness of how it can and does affect people in the long run.

    Tom
    Not entirely true - at least my experience. In medicine, you will always find someone who 'looks down on' just about everyone else, including other docs. Talks down to them. Corrects them. Believe themselves 'just a bit/lot better'. It's not the 'same' - but it's a cousin. And it can be an eye-opener (in a good way), if we're paying attention.

    Just about everyone needs a lil' help with awareness, in one thing or another.
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Not entirely true - at least my experience. In medicine, you will always find someone who 'looks down on' just about everyone else, including other docs. Talks down to them. Corrects them. Believe themselves 'just a bit/lot better'. It's not the 'same' - but it's a cousin. And it can be an eye-opener (in a good way), if we're paying attention.

    Just about everyone needs a lil' help with awareness, in one thing or another.
    I pretty much agree about the need for awareness, George, but I don't think having "someone" always belittling you is the same as what Solnit is writing about. She's talking about that kind thing coming at you from many many people, all the time, aimed at you not because the person doing the aiming looks down on everyone around them, but specifically because of your gender.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    I know; I agree. Just saying - that experience is likely as close to experiencing, as a guy is going to get. Maybe it results in awareness, if not epiphany.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    I was raised to open doors for women (and Men). This discussion makes me think maybe I should stop opening them for women, since they may think I’m making some sort of derogatory statement on their ability?

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    I think Detweiler has a choice here, she can play the victim, or she can get on with her life. If the oppression is so overwhelming then what chance does she have of eliminating it without lots of personal inconvenience? As George mentions, men often experience the same thing, if to a lesser degree.

    Doesn't the solution lie within?

    The oppression is not physical and she can quietly rejoice in her competence, ignoring the "oppression" and excelling at whatever task she wishes to complete. This is what many, many competent women do, from welders, doctors, and engineers, to astrophysicists. They do it in spite of obstacles, and their example provides encouragement to others. Of course if you want to write popular magazine articles you might have different motives.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    I think Detweiler has a choice here, she can play the victim, or she can get on with her life. If the oppression is so overwhelming then what chance does she have of eliminating it without lots of personal inconvenience? As George mentions, men often experience the same thing, if to a lesser degree.

    Doesn't the solution lie within?

    The oppression is not physical and she can quietly rejoice in her competence, ignoring the "oppression" and excelling at whatever task she wishes to complete. This is what many, many competent women do, from welders, doctors, and engineers, to astrophysicists. They do it in spite of obstacles, and their example provides encouragement to others. Of course if you want to write popular magazine articles you might have different motives.
    Meh. I don't find your response persuasive, particularly your cynicism about the motivations of writers.

    Do you question the motivations and perspectives of doctors because they get paid for their work, too? Or firemen? Or park rangers? Or airline pilots? Or is it just writers (especially writers telling you things you are not pre-disposed to believe) that you single out for that kind of thing?

    Sure, women can ignore the unfair sexist treatment they experience. Just turn their heads and do what they want to do, and let it happen because, after all, "the oppression is not physical." (That would sure be convenient for men, eh?) Or they can stand up to it. Solnit is standing up to it. I admire that.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    I was raised to open doors for women (and Men). This discussion makes me think maybe I should stop opening them for women, since they may think I’m making some sort of derogatory statement on their ability?
    I took a young woman out for dinner when I was in my late twenties. Parked in front of the restaurant, walked around and opened her car door for her. She stepped out, gave me a funny look and said I'm not a cripple you know. We walked to the restaurant door. I hesitated. She stood at the door and said Well? and waited for me to open it. I thought What the F##k are we supposed to do? I know I had been trying hard because I really liked her and she was so cute. A few years later I was talking to Buck, a friend of mine, and he said remember that pretty little teacher you were going out with a while back? I saw her over in Cowra the other day. He held his arms out as wide as he could and said She's this big now! I wondered if she was still a pain JayInOz

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Meh. I don't find your response persuasive, particularly your cynicism about the motivations of writers.

    Do you question the motivations and perspectives of doctors because they get paid for their work, too? Or firemen? Or park rangers? Or airline pilots? Or is it just writers (especially writers telling you things you are not pre-disposed to believe) that you single out for that kind of thing?

    Sure, women can ignore the unfair sexist treatment they experience. Just turn their heads and do what they want to do, and let it happen because, after all, "the oppression is not physical." (That would sure be convenient for men, eh?) Or they can stand up to it. Solnit is standing up to it. I admire that.

    Tom
    Where have you been the past 10 years? The internet and popular magazines are teeming with the products of millions of "writers." Sure, I'm cynical about SOME popular writers, trying to make a buck with horsesh!t and old news. What's wrong with you, where did I condemn ALL writers?

    Where have you been the past 30 years? Things have changed significantly for the better for women, and that's a good thing. Competently and successfully getting on with their expertise and achievement is not just letting oppression happen, it's beating oppression.

    You wallow in a society of victims, the secret is simply getting on with life.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    My daughter finally a dim bulb boyfriend when she had to show him how to change his oil.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    My daughter finally dumped a dim bulb boyfriend when she had to show him how to change his oil.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    While it's comforting to believe that "most men are decent" (I tend to agree with that) means that "most men don't treat women in a sexist manner as described"--I think there's plenty of reason to doubt that claim.
    I don't know about you, but every day I work to give the young women that work for me the chance to shine, to grow, to advance their professional aspirations. I do the same for the young men. Now, either you do the same, in which case the sweeping generalizations here should offend you personally, or you don't. That's on you, but I suspect that you do.

    I don't claim that there aren't sexist little turds out there trying to make themselves more important at the expense of whoever they view as being vulnerable. I do object when sweeping generalizations are made and the rest of us are expected to go along with it. I reject that and you should, too.

    Also, pay attention to what she is saying about the cumulative nature of the many many small incidences--how they add up to something that is no longer small, in any way whatsoever.

    Tom
    You mean like high school? Yes, nothing new there. The question is whether you grow up and put that stupidity behind you, or choose to carry it forward for the rest of your life.
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Gray View Post
    What is the point of this thread?
    When I clicked on it, I was expecting it to be about messy workshops.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    OK, so in the male-dominated boatbuilding world, if a female enrolls at the school, is it patriarchal to ask her if she knows how to sharpen a plane blade?
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Where have you been the past 10 years? The internet and popular magazines are teeming with the products of millions of "writers." Sure, I'm cynical about SOME popular writers, trying to make a buck with horsesh!t and old news. What's wrong with you, where did I condemn ALL writers?
    What's "wrong" with me is that I appear to know a heck of a lot more than you do about what kind of writer Rebecca Solnit is. Might want to do a bit more reading before deciding she can be safely lumped in with the bloggers and popular writers. Or, you might want to keep posting things that reveal your ignorance. Your choice, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Where have you been the past 30 years? Things have changed significantly for the better for women, and that's a good thing. Competently and successfully getting on with their expertise and achievement is not just letting oppression happen, it's beating oppression.

    You wallow in a society of victims, the secret is simply getting on with life.
    Says the privileged white guy.

    And that right there? That's the problem. It's not "wallowing in a society of victims" to point it out.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    OK, so in the male-dominated boatbuilding world, if a female enrolls at the school, is it patriarchal to ask her if she knows how to sharpen a plane blade?
    From the way you opened this thread (and continue it): probably, when you do it, it will be.

    If Garret did it? Nope.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I don't know about you, but every day I work to give the young women that work for me the chance to shine, to grow, to advance their professional aspirations. I do the same for the young men. Now, either you do the same, in which case the sweeping generalizations here should offend you personally, or you don't. That's on you, but I suspect that you do.

    I don't claim that there aren't sexist little turds out there trying to make themselves more important at the expense of whoever they view as being vulnerable. I do object when sweeping generalizations are made and the rest of us are expected to go along with it. I reject that and you should, too.



    You mean like high school? Yes, nothing new there. The question is whether you grow up and put that stupidity behind you, or choose to carry it forward for the rest of your life.
    See, what's I find interesting on this thread is:

    A bunch of white men:

    1. Claiming that they know what it's like for women to face repeated acts of sexism their entire lives because they have been to high school.
    2. Accusing anyone who voices agreement with women about what it's like to be a woman of "wallowing in victimhood."
    3. Suggesting that one of the 20th century's major essayists/writers is somehow failing to "get on with life" when she points out that sexism is still pervasive.
    4. Condemning a woman who points out that women are subjected to continual small acts of sexism of making "sweeping generalizations."
    5. Believe that they know more about how sexist the world still is than the women constantly subjected to sexism.
    6. Believe that they should tell women what the "proper" response to sexism is.
    7. Accusing a woman who points out the sexism that's pervasive in society of "playing the victim."
    8. Intentionally mischaracterizing a thoughtful criticism of sexism as a claim that "All men are pigs."

    If it weren't so sad, and so utterly predictable, it'd be hilarious. But, it's not hilarious. It's just sad and defensive and utterly predictable.

    Wake up! This thread is filled with many white men being contemptuous and dismissive about something that affects the women in their lives--daughters, wives, etc.--regularly and repeatedly. Perhaps every single day. And yet the reaction from so many of you is hostility, ridicule, and defensiveness when reality is pointed out to you by those who know best.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 11-17-2022 at 11:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Wi-Tom, come back after you've read a few critiques of Solnit's work by female authors. I happily note that one of them used my very words: "wallowing in victimhood."

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    The last "Lady" I opened and held open a door for..................
    Stopped, turned to me and asked "What the f..k do you want"?
    "Not a damned thing from you" was my reply.
    That was quite a while ago and I haven't opened a door for a lady since.
    I always hold the door open for my lovely wife!!!
    I once thought I was wrong, but I was wrong, I wasn't wrong.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    From the way you opened this thread (and continue it): probably, when you do it, it will be.

    If Garret did it? Nope.

    Tom
    Thing is, for some reason, I've never been any good at sharpening tools. I can get by for sure, but any # of folks look at the edge I've just made & ask for the stone & fix it so it's much better. Yes, I know that wasn't your point...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Someone shows up and shows me how, I'm grateful. I'm not reduced, I'm enlarged. Some female says flatten your stone on the sidewalk. Did I know that because I'm male, and so, she is patronizing me? No, I didn't know it at all. It would never have occured to me.

    In any case I don't give a S so long as I've got that edge, which you can feel if your mind is cleaned of bull S. The bull S doesn't get the job done; the edge does. Let's build the F ing boat already.
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 11-18-2022 at 09:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Wi-Tom, come back after you've read a few critiques of Solnit's work by female authors. I happily note that one of them used my very words: "wallowing in victimhood."
    Victimhood sells, ask Trump. Very important if your bread comes from writing for the Atlantic, or anyone. For whom are you writing?
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Wi-Tom, come back after you've read a few critiques of Solnit's work by female authors. I happily note that one of them used my very words: "wallowing in victimhood."
    So there's one person who agrees with you--you're not alone!

    Edit to add: And come back after you know what her many other female reviewers have to say about her work.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 11-18-2022 at 09:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Heck I’d just use this thread to brag about my daughters which isnn’t the exercise so off to something else. Live long and prosper all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    See, what's I find interesting on this thread is:...
    I tell you what - I'll keep empowering young women and you can keep creating victims. Then we'll see which group does best in the long run.

    I never said that there aren't sexist men out there that treat women badly. All I ever said is that I resent being painted with the "All men are pigs" brush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie 2 View Post
    The last "Lady" I opened and held open a door for..................
    Stopped, turned to me and asked "What the f..k do you want"?
    "Not a damned thing from you" was my reply.
    That was quite a while ago and I haven't opened a door for a lady since.
    I always hold the door open for my lovely wife!!!
    You may not be old enough to know this name, but my grandfather walked on crutches his whole life (and wouldn't use a handicap parking space because others needed it more). One day as he walked into a building Boog Powell held the door open for him. He told that story for the rest of his life and he was never offended by it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I tell you what - I'll keep empowering young women and you can keep creating victims.
    Bulls-eye.
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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I tell you what - I'll keep empowering young women and you can keep creating victims. Then we'll see which group does best in the long run.

    I never said that there aren't sexist men out there that treat women badly. All I ever said is that I resent being painted with the "All men are pigs" brush.
    Hmm... Another thing I find interesting, I guess--I point out that some of the white men on this thread are reacting very defensively when a woman writes about sexism, and the cumulative effects of repeated sexism, and I am "creating victims."

    You say it's the "all men are pigs" brush that offends you. But the problem is, the "all men are pigs" comment comes from Osborne Russell's OP on this thread, not from the writer he quotes. He intentionally mischaracterized what she wrote. And you fell for it.

    So if it's the "all men are pigs" comment that has you riled up, you should be replying to Osborne Russell and taking him to task for spreading that message. He's the one doing it.

    I have no idea what a baseball player holding open a door for a man on crutches has to do with any of this, I'm afraid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Bulls-eye.
    Says the white man who intentionally mischaracterized a writer's comments about sexism as "all men are pigs."

    Why'd you lie about what she said, OR? Feeling a bit defensive, are you? Did she come a little to close for comfort in how she talks about the sexist ways men treat women, and now you're claiming victim status all for yourself for being "wrongfully" accused?

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    an overreaction to male chauvinism is understandable.

    an overreaction to an overreaction to male chauvinism is of similar quality intellectually, but emotionally lame as hell.

    get over the need of others to get over it, boys.

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    Default Re: Men are pigs, especially boat builders

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-of-instagram

    But remember, don't you dare offer unsolicited help!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...solicited-help

    Poor thing changed her first tire in grad school. Some guy checked and said good job. What a swine. Can't you see how you hurt her so?
    So a quick review of the falsehoods in OR's first post here is probably in order.

    1. There's nothing whatsoever in the first link (an article about women boat builders) that says anything close to "all men are pigs." This is about as harsh as the article gets in its critique of sexism within boatbuilding:

    Boatbuilding is still largely a male preserve. Many of the women have experienced sexism and found they have had to work harder than the men to prove their skills.
    2. Likewise, there's nothing suggesting that sexism is a bigger problem with boat builders than with any other industry. So, the "especially boat builders" bit is another flat lie by OR.

    3. In the second link, again, there's absolutely no claim that "all men" are involved in sexism. And no accusation that men are "pigs." What there is, is this:

    I’ve had hundreds or maybe thousands of experiences like this
    Does anyone doubt that a 61-year-old woman has had the opportunity to experience hundreds, maybe thousands, of examples of sexism in her life?

    And there's this:

    when men assume they know when they don’t and women don’t when they do, or operate on that basis
    ...
    the men who bestow approval, instruction, and aid unsolicited
    Not "when ALL men" do this.

    So, not that Osborne Russell cares about being truthful, but here's what the article actually has to say about THE men (not ALL men) who do these kinds of things:

    I have been instructed on the correct route by men who didn’t inquire if I already knew the way, or inspected for whether I’m doing it right, graded on how far I’m going.
    There’s a deep incuriosity behind this. They apparently don’t want to bother with the inquiry that would ascertain whether the person in question has the knowledge or expertise in question, let alone whether they actually want help, advice or approval.
    ...
    They could lead with questions, or at least not clobber with assumptions, though that would require taking some modicum of interest in the people with whom they’re interacting.
    ...
    These men use women as those mirrors, casting them as best supporting actress to their leading role.
    Critical? Yes.

    But she doesn't call anyone a "pig," nor does she issue a blanket condemnation of "all men."

    It's a pity some posters on this thread fell for OR's falsehoods, and immediately started condemning the author of the article for things she never wrote--although Osborne Russell did.

    Makes me wonder why the guy who said the things you all say you object to gets a free pass, while the woman who never said them gets castigated for "wallowing in victimhood."

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 11-18-2022 at 11:51 AM.
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