Men are pigs, especially boat builders

[Osborne Russell]

‘We are outsiders’: the female boatbuilders of Instagram
Building, fixing, de-rusting and refitting – women are making waves in the traditionally male-dominated boatbuilding industry and supporting each other on social media

Even where there is gender parity, she says, it can still be more of a struggle for women – tools and workwear are often designed for men: “We need modifications but it doesn’t make us useless or weak.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-of-instagram

But remember, don't you dare offer unsolicited help!

Which woman hasn’t been bombarded by unsolicited help from men?
Rebecca Solnit


. . . what it brings to mind is the time when, as a young grad student, I had a flat tire outside my apartment. I dug out the car manual, read the instructions on changing a flat, pulled out the spare and the jack, and began working through the steps, feeling capable and proud of myself for doing it. Just as I was tightening the last lug nuts – in the proper cross pattern, just like the manual said – my middle-aged-dude neighbor came out and gestured for me to hand him the wrench. I kick myself for it now, but at the time I automatically responded to the gesture by handing him the wrench, and he proceeded to go through the motions as if tightening the bolts himself, though they were already fully tightened. He said, ‘Good job’ and handed me back the damned wrench as if he were a priest conferring some kind of patriarchal benediction I never asked for. Decades later it still rankles, because it was the first time I’d ever changed a flat and I was enjoying the feeling of accomplishment before he inserted himself.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...solicited-help

Poor thing changed her first tire in grad school. Some guy checked and said good job. What a swine. Can't you see how you hurt her so?

[Jimmy W]

My father had each of my sisters change a tire by herself before they started driving alone to make sure they wouldn't get stuck out somewhere with a flat.

[JayInOz]

My youngest daughter- then quite an inexperienced driver- pulled over to the side of a country road just on dark to look for something in the glovebox and as she did she drove against a big rock and pushed the tubeless tyre off the rim. No spare, and no phone reception. Eventually someone stopped and offered to call help for her as soon as they could get mobile reception. An hour later a tow truck showed up and took her and her car to the nearest small town, where everything was closed. He then refused to unload her car off his tow truck until she paid him seven hundred dollars. And then she had to sleep in her car and wait for the shop to open at 8.30 the next morning. I wish she'd just got someone to call me. It would have taken me a couple of hours to get there but it wouldn't have cost her a cent and she would have a bed here at home and a feed. Next time she'll do better. And I'd still like to have a little chat with that tow truck driver. JayInOz

[Decourcy]

My youngest daughter- then quite an inexperienced driver- pulled over to the side of a country road just on dark to look for something in the glovebox and as she did she drove against a big rock and pushed the tubeless tyre off the rim. No spare, and no phone reception. Eventually someone stopped and offered to call help for her as soon as they could get mobile reception. An hour later a tow truck showed up and took her and her car to the nearest small town, where everything was closed. He then refused to unload her car off his tow truck until she paid him seven hundred dollars. And then she had to sleep in her car and wait for the shop to open at 8.30 the next morning. I wish she'd just got someone to call me. It would have taken me a couple of hours to get there but it wouldn't have cost her a cent and she would have a bed here at home and a feed. Next time she'll do better. And I'd still like to have a little chat with that tow truck driver. JayInOz

If I was there, I’d join you in your chat with the driver.

[wizbang 13]

I never asked for. Decades later it still rankles, because it was the first time I’d ever changed a flat and I was enjoying the feeling of accomplishment before he inserted himself.”
he inserted himself ?

[WI-Tom]

I never asked for. Decades later it still rankles, because it was the first time I’d ever changed a flat and I was enjoying the feeling of accomplishment before he inserted himself.”
he inserted himself ?

Rebecca Solnit is a good writer, quite well known. Her word choice there was quite intentional.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

Poor thing changed her first tire in grad school. Some guy checked and said good job. What a swine. Can't you see how you hurt her so?

I must have missed the part where she wrote that it "hurt her so." (Probably because it's not there, eh?)

Can you really not see why it "rankles" for her? (Look that word up if you think it has anything to do with being hurt). I"d suggest that if you can't see what she means, you are almost certainly part of the problem, OR.

Tom

[StevenBauer]

My father had each of my sisters change a tire by herself before they started driving alone to make sure they wouldn't get stuck out somewhere with a flat.

We did that with our kids, too. And Mary made damn sure they could all drive a stick shift after an unpleasant situation she was in when she was a teenager.

[Bernadette]

there may be sexism but then there's "reverse stupidity" for sure...I was living aboard Decatur in SE Qld. Guy off the boat in the adjoining slip made the comment that I was "too talented" when he was looking over the mast and boom coverings. he knew I had also built the boat. Couldn't he figure out that sewing up awnings and the such like is a pretty simple thing being all straight lines etc.?
I took him to task over it and he offered me coffee by way of a peace offering. I dented his feelings just that bit more buy telling him I dont drink coffee...meh...the guy was doomed from the moment he opened his mouth.

[Dave Gray]

What is the point of this thread?

[PatrickXavier]

What is the point of this thread?

Trying to get people to read the excellent article at its head: https://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-of-instagram

[Jim Bow]

Perhaps, instead of just taking the wrench, hr might have asked, “Need any help?”

[sandtown]

What is the point of this thread?

misogyny . . . and the OP poster's insufferable arrogance.

Other than that it's a hoot !!

[heimfried]

I must have missed the part where she wrote that it "hurt her so." (Probably because it's not there, eh?)

Can you really not see why it "rankles" for her? (Look that word up if you think it has anything to do with being hurt). I"d suggest that if you can't see what she means, you are almost certainly part of the problem, OR.

Tom

I second that Tom.

[Robbie 2]

I taught both of our boys to drive.
BUT, before they ever got behind the wheel I pointed to a wheel and said..............
"Take it off the car, then put it back on again".
I don't think either one has had to change a tyre since, but at least they know how to.

[epoxyboy]

there may be sexism but then there's "reverse stupidity" for sure...I was living aboard Decatur in SE Qld. Guy off the boat in the adjoining slip made the comment that I was "too talented" when he was looking over the mast and boom coverings. he knew I had also built the boat. Couldn't he figure out that sewing up awnings and the such like is a pretty simple thing being all straight lines etc.?
I took him to task over it and he offered me coffee by way of a peace offering. I dented his feelings just that bit more buy telling him I dont drink coffee...meh...the guy was doomed from the moment he opened his mouth.

I have used that exact phrase (most definitely intended) as a compliment to people who have shown ridiculous amounts of skill and craftsmanship across a range of disciplines - as you've done with your builds. If I got taken to task for that, I'd be having a serious WTF moment! What am I missing?

I have committed the cardinal sin of checking a young lady's wheel nuts after she'd done the business, and rather chauvinistically found that the wheel probably would have fallen off a short distance down the road - inadequately torqued, and not properly seated on the hub. I've done the same for a guy who looked like he was struggling with a wheel change. Should I just walk past something like that in the future - and hope nobody gets killed?

Pete

[Nicholas Scheuer]

My Oregon daughter can slap a set of tire chains on quicker than I can.

[Garret]

The OP is precisely the attitude (condescending, patronizing, & arrogant) that's pissing these women off & I don't blame 'em a bit for that reaction.

Who cares what the gender of a person doing a job is? Skill is skill & if anyone here will be honest, we've seen plenty of skilled women working alongside unskilled men - and getting paid less for the better work.

On the tire - all you have to do is say "Hey - bummer on the tire - need a hand?"

[Figment]

I taught both of our boys to drive.
BUT, before they ever got behind the wheel I pointed to a wheel and said..............
"Take it off the car, then put it back on again".
I don't think either one has had to change a tyre since, but at least they know how to.

I did same with the boy. When he finished I gave him a AAA card (common roadside assistance here in USA) and told him not to ever change a tire on the side of the road, call for help. Parking lot or flat level driveway ok but not on the roadside.
Of course flats in modern tires are increasingly rare, but its a rite of passage sort of thing.

[Dave Hadfield]

Yeah, women are so touchy touchy touchy, but they still generally expect the man to take the garbage out.

[LeeG]

What is the point of this thread?

Osborne is feeling social.

[WI-Tom]

The OP is precisely the attitude (condescending, patronizing, & arrogant) that's pissing these women off & I don't blame 'em a bit for that reaction.

Who cares what the gender of a person doing a job is? Skill is skill & if anyone here will be honest, we've seen plenty of skilled women working alongside unskilled men - and getting paid less for the better work.

On the tire - all you have to do is say "Hey - bummer on the tire - need a hand?"

Yep--that's it exactly. Offering help is probably going to be appreciated even if not needed. "Offering" help in a way that indicates "because you're a female and you know it takes a Man to do that" is probably going to piss some people off.

Tom

[George Jung]

Yeah, suspect we're all guilty... of something. Maybe too full of ourselves; maybe insecure, eh?

Of course - this is just self-analysis.

[LeeG]

Yeah, suspect we're all guilty... of something. Maybe too full of ourselves; maybe insecure, eh?

Of course - this is just self-analysis.

I remember when I was a young guy living in a house with other young folks one female housemate said “men are such pigs” after a stretch of dificult situations. I was so offended. Then proceeded to do many of the things that would validate that view in the decade to come. I’m not a work in progress anymore.

[George Jung]

Four daughters (the beatings will continue until morale improves) have proven.... therapeutic.

[Osborne Russell]

I have committed the cardinal sin of checking a young lady's wheel nuts after she'd done the business, and rather chauvinistically found that the wheel probably would have fallen off a short distance down the road - inadequately torqued, and not properly seated on the hub. I've done the same for a guy who looked like he was struggling with a wheel change. Should I just walk past something like that in the future - and hope nobody gets killed?

It's good to check but not if it comes at the cost of someone's feelings.

This guy didn't know he was dealing with a grad student with a fine sense for torque, who just read the owner's manual prior to changing her first tire.

[George Jung]

Come on, OR - the guy made an assumption, was condescending. He didn't ask; he told.

HOw would you respond?

[Osborne Russell]

Come on, OR - the guy made an assumption, was condescending. He didn't ask; he told.

HOw would you respond?

"Gee, thanks! Never hurts to check again!"

Was the guy's assumption warranted is issue 1; was her response warranted is issue 2.

[George Jung]

#1 no

#2 maybe

How'm I doing? Is this graded on a curve?

[WI-Tom]

"Gee, thanks! Never hurts to check again!"

Was the guy's assumption warranted is issue 1; was her response warranted is issue 2.

1. No.
2. Yes.

Do you get it now?

One more:

Is posting a thread-opener that mischaracterizes one of the best essayists of her generation as a whiny snowflake warranted? And then pretending that arrogant sexist behavior from men ISN'T cause for criticism?

No.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

#1 no

#2 maybe

How'm I doing? Is this graded on a curve?

I'd say you're at 50% correct there, George. Doing better than OR, at least!

Tom

[George Jung]

Thanks. I think.

[Durnik]

Perhaps, instead of just taking the wrench, he might have asked, “Need any help?”

seems so easy, too.. 20 whatever years after the concept of mansplainin', and some men still need it 'splained to them (that _was_ what 'mansplain' meant, riiight? 0-: ). I got lucky, 45 years ago in the military I had the "women can't.." attitude kicked out of me - it opened up my world.

and in this case, she was done.. imma thinking commiseration over the problem - like we'd do with a guy (-: - is better.

I second that Tom.

and carried!

Trying to get people to read the excellent article at its head: https://www.theguardian.com/environm...s-of-instagram

indeed.. and for some (-:, the following article - 'www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/20/rebecca-solnit-unwanted-approval-men-unsolicited-help'

[stromborg]

It's worth reading all of Rebecca Solnit's article. The bit OR pulled out is actually a story related to her by another woman and is used to illustrate a larger problem. The preceding paragraphs:

Professor Sarah Detweiler told me, “I’m an artist. I often need to use hardware stores. I’ll ask, where are the caulk guns or some other such item. I didn’t ask how to use them, wasn’t running my project by anyone, and inevitably I’ll get ‘whatcha gonna do with that’ or ‘what you need that for’ and I’ll smile and say ‘what aisle?’ Male workers have gone so far as to walk me to them, stand in front of them blocking my way asking again what I’m working on as I couldn’t possibly know. I’ve had it happen nearly everywhere and hear it happening to other women all the time.”

They discussed the defensiveness belittlement generates, the sense that you need to brandish your credentials and qualifications in the face of this, which happens when you’re treated over and over as incompetent, and of how a lifetime of it can breed undeserved self-doubt. One wondered if other women get, “an additional sense of demoralised deflation afterwards, even though the intellect tells you to ignore the subtle put down?,” adding that “sometimes it just wipes me out even though I know I’m capable and accomplished”.

Male ego wants to step in a "help out the lil' lady" whether that help is solicited or not. A death by a thousand cuts situation, they all add up but the fragile male ego goes into butt-hurt mode as soon as it is pointed out.

[Dave Wright]

It's worth reading all of Rebecca Solnit's article. The bit OR pulled out is actually a story related to her by another woman and is used to illustrate a larger problem. The preceding paragraphs:

Professor Sarah Detweiler told me, “I’m an artist. I often need to use hardware stores. I’ll ask, where are the caulk guns or some other such item. I didn’t ask how to use them, wasn’t running my project by anyone, and inevitably I’ll get ‘whatcha gonna do with that’ or ‘what you need that for’ and I’ll smile and say ‘what aisle?’ Male workers have gone so far as to walk me to them, stand in front of them blocking my way asking again what I’m working on as I couldn’t possibly know. I’ve had it happen nearly everywhere and hear it happening to other women all the time.”

They discussed the defensiveness belittlement generates, the sense that you need to brandish your credentials and qualifications in the face of this, which happens when you’re treated over and over as incompetent, and of how a lifetime of it can breed undeserved self-doubt. One wondered if other women get, “an additional sense of demoralised deflation afterwards, even though the intellect tells you to ignore the subtle put down?,” adding that “sometimes it just wipes me out even though I know I’m capable and accomplished”.

Male ego wants to step in a "help out the lil' lady" whether that help is solicited or not. A death by a thousand cuts situation, they all add up but the fragile male ego goes into butt-hurt mode as soon as it is pointed out.

There's a simple solution for Detweiler, she can simply tell the interfering man to f*ck off, and go about her business.

True competence gets on with job at hand and is not at all bothered by the momentary interference. Based upon her reaction, I almost think she might really doubt her competence, and that's too bad.