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Thread: It's not always a gun!

  1. #1
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    Default It's not always a gun!

    This follows the UVA shooting a few days ago.

    4 college students killed in 'targeted attack,' no suspects in custody

    Four University of Idaho students were killed in "an isolated, targeted attack" with an "edged weapon" like a knife, police revealed on Tuesday.

    The students, who were found dead on Sunday in a house near campus, were identified by the Moscow, Idaho, police as: Ethan Chapin, 20, of Conway, Washington; Madison Mogen, 21, of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho; Xana Kernodle, 20, of Avondale, Arizona; and Kaylee Goncalves, 21, of Rathdrum, Idaho.

    Moscow police Capt. Anthony Dahlinger told the Idaho Statesman that all four students are considered victims, not suspects.

    "We certainly have a crime here, so we are looking for a suspect," he told the newspaper.

    No one is in custody but police said they believe there's "no imminent threat to the community."

    The fatalities appear to be a "one-off crime" that "was very focused and doesn't involve other students or the public in general at all," Moscow Mayor Art Bettge told ABC News.

    It’s believed the crime happened between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. Sunday, the mayor said. The victims were found around noon on Sunday when officers responded to a report of an unconscious person, according to police.

    The weapon wasn't found at the scene, police added.

    Police said they're working to "re-create the victims' activities" on Saturday night and early Sunday morning.

    Chapin, a freshman, was in the Sigma Chi fraternity and was majoring in recreation, sport and tourism management, university president Scott Green said.

    Chapin didn't live in the house but was sleeping over with his girlfriend, Kernodle, according to his mother, Stacy Chapin.

    She said a friend who does not live in the house discovered the victims.

    "Ethan was well-liked, the light of everyone's life," she told ABC News. "These were all-American kids."

    Mogen, a senior, and Kernodle, a junior, were both marketing majors in the Pi Beta Phi sorority, Green said.

    Goncalves, a senior, was majoring in general studies and was in the Alpha Phi sorority, Green said. She was the "ultimate go getter" who was "dedicated, outspoken, motivated & full of life," her family said in a statement.

    "They were smart, they were vigilant, they were careful and this all still happened. No one is in custody and that means no one is safe," Goncalves' family said. "Yes, we are all heartbroken. Yes, we are all grasping. But more strong than any of these feelings is anger. We are angry. You should be angry."

    "And to whomever is responsible, we will find you. We will never stop," the family said. "The pain you caused has fueled our hatred and sealed your fate. Justice will be served."

    Green said in a statement, "The university is working directly with those affected and is committed to supporting all students, families and employees as this event undeniably touches all of us."

    Anyone with information is asked to call the Moscow Police Department at 208-882-2677.

    ABC News' Marilyn Heck and Nicholas Cirone contributed to this report.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...9549b6879aa621
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    It’s almost like violence is the problem.

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    Having seen the portraits of the victims, I’m getting a real “incel” vibe. Three pretty girls and a nice-guy housemate.
    ITS CHAOS, BE KIND

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    It's not always a gun, but it's quicker and easier if you use one. A gun is a carefully-designed tool, made to quickly and efficiently put drippy red holes in living bodies.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    It’s almost like violence is the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    It's not always a gun, but it's quicker and easier if you use one. A gun is a carefully-designed tool, made to quickly and efficiently put drippy red holes in living bodies.
    Exactly. Laws are made for the lowest common denominator, not for the responsible adult, and that is how it will always be.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    This follows the UVA shooting a few days ago.



    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...9549b6879aa621

    It's being described as a "crime of passion", so I'm assuming there was some sort of romantic entanglement involved.
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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    It's not always a gun, but it's quicker and easier if you use one. A gun is a carefully-designed tool, made to quickly and efficiently put drippy red holes in living bodies.
    Knives and other sharp instruments aren't too far behind.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    You can certainly kill people with sharp bits of metal; people did it for thousands of years - but there's an excellent reason that armies all now use guns.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    A friend of mine has studied martial arts for a long time. After 9-11 his sons were worried about it happening to them, even going to school. He taught them how to take a book and disarm someone with a knife.

    That's the thing. Yes, knives can kill, but guns are too easy.
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    Of about 14,000 murders in the US in 2021, +/- 2,500 were done with weapons other than guns. 2,500 people. No small number.

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    Kevin 10,752 people were killed with firearms not a small number.

    Also I’m not seeing a #2 Pencil on that list
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    It’s right around rifles.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    What is the difference between "Firearms, type not stated" and "Other guns"?
    "Where you live in the world should not determine whether you live in the world." - Bono

    "Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip." - Will Rogers

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    What is the difference between "Firearms, type not stated" and "Other guns"?
    I can't speak for those who created this survey. I can say that a bow and arrow is considered a firearm in NY state.
    On that logic, I imagine crossbows, zip guns, spear guns and other miscellaneous projectile projectors might be included in this group. And, perhaps in some cases the authorities somehow determine death by gunshot, but find no round or shell casing, and so cannot state with surety what type of gun.
    Hope that helps.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    I can't speak for those who created this survey. I can say that a bow and arrow is considered a firearm in NY state.
    Bows and arrows not a firearm, in NY (or any other state).

    A firearm requires shot propelled by an explosive charge. A bow and arrow, or a crossbow and bolt, though, is a deadly weapon and/or dangerous instrument, as is your sailboat (but not your rowboat):

    https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/10.00

    12. "Deadly weapon" means any loaded weapon from which a shot, readily capable of producing death or other serious physical injury, may be discharged, or a switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, dagger, billy, blackjack, plastic knuckles, or metal knuckles.

    13. "Dangerous instrument" means any instrument, article or substance, including a "vehicle" as that term is defined in this section, which, under the circumstances in which it is used, attempted to be used or threatened to be used, is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury.

    14. "Vehicle" means a "motor vehicle", "trailer" or "semi-trailer," as
    defined in the vehicle and traffic law, any snowmobile as defined in the parks and recreation law, any aircraft, or any vessel equipped for propulsion by mechanical means or by sail.

    NY State Law's definition of "firearm":

    https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/265.00

    3. "Firearm" means

    (a) any pistol or revolver; or

    (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or

    (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or

    (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
    modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
    otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or

    (e) an assault weapon; or

    (f) any other weapon that is not otherwise defined in this section containing any component that provides housing or a structure designed to hold or integrate any fire control component that
    is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by
    action of explosive.

    For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

    Firearm does not include an antique firearm.

    [Sections 4 - 10 elided for brevity]

    11. "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger using either:

    (a) fixed metallic cartridge; or

    (b) each projectile and explosive charge are loaded individually for each shot discharged.

    In addition to common, modern usage, rifles include those using obsolete ammunition not commonly available in commercial trade, or that load through the muzzle and fire a single projectile with each discharge, or loading, including muzzle loading rifles, flintlock rifles, and black powder rifles.

    12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive to fire through a smooth or rifled bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger using either:

    (a) a fixed shotgun shell; or

    (b) a projectile or number of ball shot and explosive charge are loaded individually for each shot discharged.

    In addition to common, modern usage, shotguns include those using obsolete ammunition not commonly available in commercial trade, or that load through the muzzle and fires ball shot with each discharge, or loading, including muzzle loading shotguns, flintlock shotguns, and black powder shotguns.

    [elided]

    * 14. "Antique firearm" means:

    Any unloaded muzzle loading pistol or revolver with a matchlock,
    flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system, or a
    pistol or revolver which uses fixed cartridges which are no longer
    available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    * NB There are 2 sb 14's
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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    ^ That's new, as of earlier this year.
    Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
    I haven't hunted in a few years and am out of the loop.

    https://www.bowhunting.com/article/b...%20this%20fact.

    Excerpt:

    New York State’s top court recently told the Town of Smithtown that a bow is not a firearm. The ruling undermines one basis for the town’s regulation of deer hunting within its borders.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    Modern bows are pretty freaky, they have all sorts of assists to make it easier to be good enough to be deadly (for hunting of course).
    I've made traditional wooden bows for quite a while, one piece not laminated (except sometimes handles or tips on recurves) and they can be just as deadly but require more skill to use. I'm always baffled by people that think a wooden bow is not an effective weapon.

    Just in the last century , guns have become a sort of fetish culture based largely in urban areas rather than in rural areas where a gun is a tool, practically used.

    And as was said above they make killing a lot easier, especially in large numbers.
    I imagine killing someone face to face with a knife takes a lot more motivation(of the wrong sort obviously) than standing back and effectively having an off button for life.

    Handguns and assault rifles are meant solely for killing other humans.

    Unfortunately Canada is also developing a gun fetish culture .

    In my opinion no average citizens outside isolated rural areas, really needs a gun.

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Exactly. Laws are made for the lowest common denominator, not for the responsible adult, and that is how it will always be.
    That's the fast lane to Idiocracy....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy
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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    "…….awakens in the year 2505, in a dystopian[3] world dumbed-down by mass commercialism, rampant anti-intellectualism and the domination of low culture,…………"

    Sounds on the money to me , Texas education system and a few others anyone?

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    For intent to purchase, use, and license, anything that launches a projectile in NJ is considered a firearm. This includes Crossbows, pellet, and BB guns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    For intent to purchase, use, and license, anything that launches a projectile in NJ is considered a firearm. This includes Crossbows, pellet, and BB guns.

    Not a crossbow. Spearguns, yes (an "elastic band" being the motive force), crossbows not so much.

    https://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pd...tle13-ch54.pdf

    "Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, assault firearm, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectile, ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances.

    It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas, or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.
    Crossbows and bows/arrows are still deadly weapons, but not regulated as a firearms.

    "Weapon" means anything readily capable of lethal use or of inflicting serious bodily injury. The term includes, but is not limited to, all:

    1. Firearms, even though not loaded or lacking a clip or other component to render them immediately operable; 2. Components which can be readily assembled into a weapon;

    3. Gravity knives, switch-blades, knives, daggers, dirks, stilettos, or other dangerous knives, billies, blackjacks, bludgeons, metal knuckles, sandclubs, slingshots, cestus or similar leather bands studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood; and

    4. Stun guns and any other weapon or other device which projects, releases or emits tear gas or any other substance intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or permanent injury through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air.
    It is interesting to me, that in New Jersey, Brown Bess/Land Pattern and Charleville muskets are regulated as an "antique cannon", they being .75 caliber (or "12 gauge", meaning 12 lead balls to the pound):

    "Antique cannon" means any weapon which satisfies the definition of an antique firearm and which is also capable of firing a projectile of a caliber greater than .60 caliber, except a shotgun or shotgun ammunition generally recognized as suitable for sporting purposes.

    "Antique firearm" means any firearm which is incapable of being fired or discharged, or which does not fire fixed ammunition regardless of date of manufacture, or was manufactured before 1898 for which cartridge ammunition is not commercially available, and is possessed as a curiosity or ornament or for its historical significance or value.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  22. #22
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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    A bow is a leaf spring.
    Arrows and bolts are driven by springs.
    R
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Williamson View Post
    A bow is a leaf spring.
    Arrows and bolts are driven by springs.
    R

    Still not considered a firearm in NJ.

    https://criminallawyerinnj.com/nj-gu...-need-to-know/

    Many people are surprised by what the state considers to be a “firearm”. If it shoots a projectile, and it can possibly hurt someone, it might be considered a firearm in NJ. That said, bows and crossbows are not considered firearms… despite the fact that they can kill people. An airsoft gun, which shoots tiny plastic pellets, is considered to be a firearm. Being caught with one unregistered will have you facing 5-10 years in New Jersey state prison.

    Also, the rule is that it includes "any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, ..."

    A bow is not in the nature of any of those. Also doesn't shoot a projectile less than 3/8 inch in diameter.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: It's not always a gun!

    Meantime the 4 young people butchered to death seem to be forgotten in yet another gun thread………….

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