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Thread: EVís are becoming mainstream

  1. #106
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Of course,Consumer Reports is the only US magazine maintaining its own independent test track, and buys the cars it tests.
    Then how come they always recommend something boring like a Sh!t Brown Toyota Camry ? Oh excuse me a Sh!t Brown Toyota Camry HYBRED.
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    As I've argued before, EV's are not really ready for prime time. Anyone who buys one now is paying a premium for the privilege of doing beta testing for the mfgr/industry. And 'becoming mainstream'? Not so much. Growing in market share, yes... but even there, not as much as hybrids. And for good reason. Reliability. And this article doesn't even get into the issues around the present charging networks --


    Consumer Reports Has Some Surprising News About Hybrids & EV's



    As most of the major automakers play catch-up with Tesla (TSLA) - Get Free Report and make the move to fully electrify their fleets, some people might think it would be lights out for the hybrid.

    However, the hybrid doesn't seem to be taking the hint.

    Hybrids captured 3.2% of the light vehicle market in 2013 and 5.5% in 2021, according to U.S. Department of Transportation statistics, while all-electric vehicles accounted for 3.2% of the light vehicle market in 2021.

    And Toyota (TOYOF) just unveiled its newest version of the Prius, which the Japanese vehicle maker introduced in 1997.

    JD Power and Associates said in a report last year that "hybrid cars work best in urban areas and warmer temperatures."

    "Their level of complexity, added weight, and higher purchase price presents an apparent downside," the report said, "but higher fuel efficiency in urban driving conditions and comprehensive warranty coverage can offset these disadvantages."

    Now a study has found that hybrid vehicles and midsized or large sedans may not be the most popular new vehicles sold, but they are among the most reliable.

    The advocacy organization Consumer Reports said that its latest Annual Auto Reliability data also shows that electric vehicles and full-size pickup trucks are the two most troublesome categories.


    https://www.thestreet.com/electric-v...o&cm_ven=YAHOO
    Perhaps. But charging is moving forward. ( actually the Tesla system is working quite well across the country and it is expanding) Federal money is now headed to states for building up fast EV chargers on highways https://www.npr.org/2022/09/27/11253...gers-on-highwa







    Last edited by sonofswen; 11-18-2022 at 12:12 PM.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    A bigger question: production of electricity and the grid.

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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Then how come they always recommend something boring like a Sh!t Brown Toyota Camry ? Oh excuse me a Sh!t Brown Toyota Camry HYBRED.
    Why did you buy a Jeep Compass? FWIW, they don't "recommend" they report on the results of a consumer survey of car owners experience. The Camry has a great reputation for reliability, which translates to high trade-in value. The OP was about entering the "mainstream", which seems to mean additional new-car sales that amount to some two percent of the new-car market. I wouldn't call that mainstream. Going from about three and a half percent to five percent is significant, but hardly what I would call mainstream. As for "hybrid", the new Prius rates at 57 mpg, plus about 30 miles of all-electric driving range. Emptying the gas tank would be problematic-- the gas could go stale before it is used.

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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Why did you buy a Jeep Compass? FWIW, they don't "recommend" they report on the results of a consumer survey of car owners experience. The Camry has a great reputation for reliability, which translates to high trade-in value. The OP was about entering the "mainstream", which seems to mean additional new-car sales that amount to some two percent of the new-car market. I wouldn't call that mainstream. Going from about three and a half percent to five percent is significant, but hardly what I would call mainstream. As for "hybrid", the new Prius rates at 57 mpg, plus about 30 miles of all-electric driving range. Emptying the gas tank would be problematic-- the gas could go stale before it is used.
    I didn't BUY the Jeep Compass I leased it. The reason I leased it was because we leased a Jeep Cherokee 3 years previous and it was actually a great car, we drove cross country with the large U-Hall trailer on the back. So when we turned it in we just traded it out for another Jeep because it was easy. Big mistake.

    Oh and read the OP it doesn't say EV's are now mainstream it says EV’s are becoming mainstream.

    Now add in that California will ban gas cars ( Hybrid cars like your Prius example still use gas so ???? ) by 2035, and mainstream just got a whole lot closer

    Last month, California regulators passed rules banning the sale of new gas-powered cars by 2035, a move hailed as a significant victory in the fight against climate change.
    https://www.npr.org/2022/08/25/11194...d-cars-by-2035
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  6. #111
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    I didn't BUY the Jeep Compass I leased it. The reason I leased it was because we leased a Jeep Cherokee 3 years previous and it was actually a great car, we drove cross country with the large U-Hall trailer on the back. So when we turned it in we just traded it out for another Jeep because it was easy. Big mistake.

    Oh and read the OP it doesn't say EV's are now mainstream it says EV’s are becoming mainstream.

    Now add in that California will ban gas cars ( Hybrid cars like your Prius example still use gas so ???? ) by 2035, and mainstream just got a whole lot closer



    https://www.npr.org/2022/08/25/11194...d-cars-by-2035
    Sounds like California car dealers will be in tough shape, since you will have to have a gas car delivered from out of state. Probably by Amazon.

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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Sounds like California car dealers will be in tough shape, since you will have to have a gas car delivered from out of state. Probably by Amazon.
    It's gonna be hard for you to buy an ICE car in Michigan after 2035, or for comparison try filling up your ICE with some premium leaded gas today

    Remember California sets the standard for ALL cars in the US since the leaded gasoline days

    In 1992, California under CARB became the first state to fully ban the sale and use of leaded gasoline. Those are just a few of the steps CARB has taken to maintain California's place as the United States leader in clean air standards.
    What is going to happen and IS happening already is EVERY SINGLE AUTO MAKER is switching to fully EV and they all have one or more in there line up NOW. Funny thing they all have huge waitlists so the demand is driving the mainstreem closer and closer
    Last edited by Joe (SoCal); 11-18-2022 at 01:38 PM.
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    The ironic thing is..Joe,is that in a few years..maybe more, electricity my work out to be just about as much money as it is to fuel up an ICE car. Really hope the lithium alternatives that are being worked on pan out. There are downsides on the electric car, may they be ironed out sooner than later.
    ( right now is a good time to won one, I know )

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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    It's gonna be hard for you to buy an ICE car in Michigan after 2035, or for comparison try filling up your ICE with some premium leaded gas today

    Remember California sets the standard for ALL cars in the US since the leaded gasoline days



    What is going to happen and IS happening already is EVERY SINGLE AUTO MAKER is switching to fully EV and they all have one or more in there line up NOW. Funny thing they all have huge waitlists so the demand is driving the mainstreem closer and closer
    Dunno what "setting the standard for all cars in the US" is supposed to mean, or what "leaded gasoline days" means either. The commitment of automakers to EV is what makes current EV sales so critical, let alone the transition needed in the infrastructure. It's been some 50 years since a reasonably useable all-electric was put on the market (discounting the earliest efforts in the early 20th century), and the broad market hasn't embraced them yet.

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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofswen View Post
    The ironic thing is..Joe,is that in a few years..maybe more, electricity my work out to be just about as much money as it is to fuel up an ICE car. Really hope the lithium alternatives that are being worked on pan out. There are downsides on the electric car, may they be ironed out sooner than later.
    ( right now is a good time to won one, I know )

    Actually I was listening to NPR's Fresh air and the guest was David Wallace-Wells, wrote an article in New York magazine called "The Uninhabitable Earth." Six years ago. In it, he laid out some worst-case scenarios of what life on earth might be like if we continued the path we were on, releasing large amounts of carbon into the atmosphere. He described drought and famine, intolerable heat and collapsing economies. Some scientists took issue with his dire depictions of the future. He was called an alarmist. Some denounced his writings as climate porn.

    Wallace-Wells went on to write a bestselling book called "The Uninhabitable Earth," and he continues to believe that we should be alarmed about the climate. But over the past several months, he's had dozens of conversations with climate scientists, economists, policymakers, activists, novelists and philosophers to assess where we are now. And he has some surprising, new findings in a recent article he wrote in The New York Times Magazine called "Beyond Catastrophe: A New Climate Reality Is Coming Into View." David Wallace-Wells is a staff writer for the magazine and for the Times Opinion pages.

    He completely revised his ominous position. Why ? Here is his reason.

    Well, the big thing is a point that I mentioned when I was talking about coal, which is just that renewable power has gotten much, much cheaper and, at the same time, much more reliable. So since 2010, the cost of solar power has fallen by about 85- or 90%. So a unit of solar power now costs about a 10th of what it did in 2010. And over that same period of time, you know, fossil fuels have not fallen in price at all, which means that, you know, now many renewables are much cheaper than their dirty alternatives. In fact, according to one study, 90% of the world now lives in places where building new renewable capacity would be cheaper than building new dirty capacity. And indeed, in a lot of places, it's already cheaper to build new renewables than even to continue running old fossil fuel plants.

    It's not just solar power. Wind, both offshore and onshore, has fallen by between 60- and 80%. Battery technology, which has become even more crucial in making sure that solar and wind power can be used around the clock, not just when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing - that price has fallen by about 80- or 90% as well. So we're living through an incredibly dramatic - people call it a collapse in the price of renewables, which means that solar power has now been called by the International Energy Agency, which is, generally speaking, a conservative forecaster, the cheapest electricity in history.

    And the entire landscape of energy investment has really been transformed, both in the private sector and in the public sector, because nowhere in the world - anyone who's looking at these data points and making 10-year, 20-year or 30-year plans, everybody is going to think, well, we should be going all in on renewables here. We shouldn't be building new coal or new oil or new gas capacity. And as a result, that's what's happening. Last year, the IEA marked that we invested more in renewable capacity than in dirty capacity. And in fact, 90%, I think, of the new capacity that was added last year globally was renewable. So we're turning the corner here. We're not moving fast enough, but the energy mix is changing quite dramatically. And a decade or so from now, I think it's going to look very, very different than it does today.
    https://www.npr.org/2022/11/10/11357...ome-widespread
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Dunno what "setting the standard for all cars in the US" is supposed to mean, or what "leaded gasoline days" means either. The commitment of automakers to EV is what makes current EV sales so critical, let alone the transition needed in the infrastructure. It's been some 50 years since a reasonably useable all-electric was put on the market (discounting the earliest efforts in the early 20th century), and the broad market hasn't embraced them yet.
    Basically California is such a HUGE market for cars, so much so that when they changed and move to banning leaded gas cars, the automakers made the change. If they ban the sale of ICE cars the automakers will do the same. Sorry but after 2035 if you want to buy an ICE car it's probably gonna be a used one.
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofswen View Post
    The ironic thing is..Joe,is that in a few years..maybe more, electricity my work out to be just about as much money as it is to fuel up an ICE car. Really hope the lithium alternatives that are being worked on pan out. There are downsides on the electric car, may they be ironed out sooner than later.
    People with solar PV or other renewable power systems can set up a home charger and run their EVs at very low cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    People with solar PV or other renewable power systems can set up a home charger and run their EVs at very low cost.
    One of the new places we are looking at come WITH solar panels AND an EV outlet in the garage
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Basically California is such a HUGE market for cars, so much so that when they changed and move to banning leaded gas cars, the automakers made the change. If they ban the sale of ICE cars the automakers will do the same. Sorry but after 2035 if you want to buy an ICE car it's probably gonna be a used one.
    On the other hand the federal government banning the use of lead had a lot to do with it.

    I think a national ban is coming. But there will be gas available for decades after producti0on of ICEs ends. That will include in California.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    One of the new places we are looking at come WITH solar panels AND an EV outlet in the garage
    I'd guess California has a net metering law. Take a look at the previous electric bills to see what it might cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofswen View Post
    A bigger question: production of electricity and the grid.
    The ironic part is that it takes fossil energy to make all this stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    People with solar PV or other renewable power systems can set up a home charger and run their EVs at very low cost.
    TRUE, but.............a PV system like that , say a 2kW system..runs around $12 Thousand for starters..we have a 5kW system...$25 Thousand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    The ironic part is that it takes fossil energy to make all this stuff.
    Hydro? Solar? in the near future Nuclear ( small systems are in the works ) why fossil? Guess we are lucky. In Or. 68% of our electricity is NOT from fossil fuel, nothing from coal.

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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofswen View Post
    Hydro? Solar? in the near future Nuclear ( small systems are in the works ) why fossil? Guess we are lucky. In Or. 68% of our electricity is NOT from fossil fuel, nothing from coal.
    Yes those electricity sources exist but the whole train from resource extraction to refinement to production of EVs is from fossil fuels. If one was concerned about GHG emissions, creating a more resilient power grid and transitioning to a less fossil fuel intensive transportation sector the method for getting there isn’t increasing a whole slew of energy consuming EVs to replace an abundance of ICEVs. The number of ICEVs is too large to be replaced with EVs. The fossil energy expended in building those EVs is an added draw on the grid not a replacement of fossil electricity with solar/wind/hydro. So folks looking to put a Tesla in every garage will be increasing GHG emissions to build them What’s needed is less driving overall, fewer one passenger vehicles. Sure make EVs and replace ICEVs with them where possible but thinking an F150 Lightning replacing a 4.6 liter V8 F150 is going to address global warming is a joke. It’s like drinking two six packs of diet beer to lose weight compared to one six pack of high calorie IPA.
    Last edited by LeeG; 11-18-2022 at 06:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    What’s needed is less driving overall, fewer one passenger vehicles.
    We've spent the better part of the last century remodeling society and our physical environment around the automobile, so we now have a world in which an automobile is a necessity. To reduce driving, we need to undo that last 100 years' worth of "progress", and build anew an environment designed around people rather than cars:

    - Rebuild the street car system
    - Rebuild the passenger rail system
    - Change the zoning laws so that housing can be within walking distance of business and industry.
    - Penalize urban sprawl.

    And lots more - dense building, for instance. Did you know that attached single-family housing (think row houses a ala Greenwich Village) is some 400% more energy efficient than detached single-family housing? That's largely due to the fact that surface area varies as N^2 and volume varies as N^3.

    We have models that work (and have worked for centuries) for energy-efficient cities and towns: think London, Paris, Greenwich Village, Lincoln Park in Chicago, ... the traditional city.
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    We've spent the better part of the last century remodeling society and our physical environment around the automobile, so we now have a world in which an automobile is a necessity. To reduce driving, we need to undo that last 100 years' worth of "progress", and build anew an environment designed around people rather than cars:

    - Rebuild the street car system
    - Rebuild the passenger rail system
    - Change the zoning laws so that housing can be within walking distance of business and industry.
    - Penalize urban sprawl.

    And lots more - dense building, for instance. Did you know that attached single-family housing (think row houses a ala Greenwich Village) is some 400% more energy efficient than detached single-family housing? That's largely due to the fact that surface area varies as N^2 and volume varies as N^3.

    We have models that work (and have worked for centuries) for energy-efficient cities and towns: think London, Paris, Greenwich Village, Lincoln Park in Chicago, ... the traditional city.
    I'm not sure that's possible.

    Visited Best Buy this am, and saw two spots reserved for EVs to charge. I have handicap plates, and pretty much everywhere there are spots reserved for handicap parking. Sometimes they're all full and I have to park elsewhere, but that's not generally too bad. EV won't have that luxury, and I don't know if the designates spots will grow as fast as they need to. Guess time will tell.
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofswen View Post
    TRUE, but.............a PV system like that , say a 2kW system..runs around $12 Thousand for starters..we have a 5kW system...$25 Thousand.
    These prices don’t seem up to date. AltE sells a complete 10KW grid tie kit for $13,500. We’re all do it yourselfers, here, right?
    They’ve got a 5.7 KW off grid kit with lithium batteries for $16,500

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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    We've spent the better part of the last century remodeling society and our physical environment around the automobile, so we now have a world in which an automobile is a necessity. To reduce driving, we need to undo that last 100 years' worth of "progress", and build anew an environment designed around people rather than cars:

    - Rebuild the street car system
    - Rebuild the passenger rail system
    - Change the zoning laws so that housing can be within walking distance of business and industry.
    - Penalize urban sprawl.

    And lots more - dense building, for instance. Did you know that attached single-family housing (think row houses a ala Greenwich Village) is some 400% more energy efficient than detached single-family housing? That's largely due to the fact that surface area varies as N^2 and volume varies as N^3.

    We have models that work (and have worked for centuries) for energy-efficient cities and towns: think London, Paris, Greenwich Village, Lincoln Park in Chicago, ... the traditional city.
    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ings?itemId=30
    The average utility cost in the US compares favorably to costs in Europe. The differences don't support an economic decision to make changes. We have an all electric detached home which also includes our business and it costs us less than $100/month for utilities. The energy cost compares favorability to an 85m^2 apartment in most locations in Europe.

    I am not sure what you envision a street car system would do. If I lived in a city laid out in a grid, I most certainly need to walk to a stop, take 2 or more street cars, and walk to a store just to buy groceries. Doing that in cold weather would deter many. Especially those with children to haul around.

    Passenger rail solves very few problems. Most systems cost more than even ignoring the construction costs, than driving - ignoring the cost of parking.

    Doing away with the drivers in a mass transit system and fixed routes - perhaps electric vehicles of various sizes that will move people from their current location to their desired location without a need to go to "stops", might provide a solution. But the cost needs to meet the reality of what efficient cars cost. My car costs $.10-.15/mile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    These prices don’t seem up to date. AltE sells a complete 10KW grid tie kit for $13,500. We’re all do it yourselfers, here, right?
    They’ve got a 5.7 KW off grid kit with lithium batteries for $16,500
    Your probably right...we paid those prices years ago...not a kit though, a company installed it.




    How much does an average 10kW solar system cost? As of January 2022, a 10kW solar energy system will cost about $30,000 before incentives, based on the average cost of solar in the U.S. When you take the federal tax credit into account, that price drops to about $21,000.Sep 1, 2022

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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    The differences don't support an economic decision to make changes.
    It's not economic decision. It's about not having a climate catastrophe. Oh, wait, yes, it is an economic decision: what's the economic cost of, say, a 1 meter rise in sea level? Or the collapse of marine ecosystems because rising acidity from carbonic acid kills all the shellfish?

    [quote]I am not sure what you envision a street car system would do. If I lived in a city laid out in a grid, I most certainly need to walk to a stop, take 2 or more street cars, and walk to a store just to buy groceries. Doing that in cold weather would deter many. Especially those with children to haul around.

    Passenger rail solves very few problems. Most systems cost more than even ignoring the construction costs, than driving - ignoring the cost of parking./QUOTE]

    Rail is about the most energy efficient form of moving stuff around. If you're not consuming energy, you're not emitting greenhouse gases.

    Implementing rail doesn't require inventing fantasy technologies like autonomous self-driving cars. The technology exists, it's proven, and it works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    People with solar PV or other renewable power systems can set up a home charger and run their EVs at very low cost.
    We are exploring a rooftop solar array at our place. Early feedback is that it won't be enough to power an EV. I was curious if a plug-in hybrid was gonna be an option. Maybe if we pull of our plan to develop a family compound, the acreage would allow us to have a freestanding array, or the several outbuildings envisioned will have enough rooftop space...
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    If joe was younger, living in the big apple and making videos.

    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 11-19-2022 at 09:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    It's not economic decision. It's about not having a climate catastrophe. Oh, wait, yes, it is an economic decision: what's the economic cost of, say, a 1 meter rise in sea level? Or the collapse of marine ecosystems because rising acidity from carbonic acid kills all the shellfish?

    Rail is about the most energy efficient form of moving stuff around. If you're not consuming energy, you're not emitting greenhouse gases.
    I think it is a bit late to worry about climate change. The issues you mention will happen soon. There is nothing that one can do except delay them for a short time.

    Our family spent a week in Portland, OR. Took the rails from the airport to near our hotel. It was night and raining for the walk at the end. Same weather on the return trip. Given the lack of passengers, it may not have been energy efficient. We took the rails several times. Never pleasant waiting out in the weather. I walked most days. The city was depressing. Few people out. A glum hanging over most of the town. I have spent time in California. Road the rails between Palo Alto and San Francisco. Expensive. And not door to door. I found walking more pleasant.
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    We are screwed in the future - those with EVs will be able to use their personal vehicles more. People justifying them so vehemently are really justifying their own use of resources, energy and exercise of their money.

    Too Little Time just explained he does not like mass transportation. The fact is most of you do not take mass transit except for flying commercial. Few of you ever advocate for more mass transit nor do you ever express the wonder of the local train or bus system in your region and how surprised you were at the service. The EV is the last differentiators between those who can ride and those who must suffer with the poor masses in the world of Covid and the legacy of fear exposure. Maybe the best example of liberal democrats hypocrisy - the promise to the rich without willing to fill out the society which best serves their ever growing poor community in the long run.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 11-19-2022 at 10:49 AM.
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Ted, I think the US gov’t will bend over backwards robbing Peter topay Paul in order to continue lowest cost fuel to all and sheltering legacy industries from hardship. Until the next crisis hits. And the next. And the next. With the Magic Hand of the Marketplace meeting the immediate needs of those with some wealth. I don’t see the federal gov’t leading on depowering fossil fuel infrastructure.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Ted, I think the US gov’t will bend over backwards robbing Peter topay Paul in order to continue lowest cost fuel to all and sheltering legacy industries from hardship. Until the next crisis hits. And the next. And the next. With the Magic Hand of the Marketplace meeting the immediate needs of those with some wealth. I don’t see the federal gov’t leading on depowering fossil fuel infrastructure.
    I don't see the government depowering of fossil fuels either. I also note how the use of EV is not the solution but a delusional, permissive way to kick the can down the road. I am not optimistic about any of this - the biggest advocates of EVs do not want to live near a nuclear powerplants, they recharge at high consumption rates during the least energy productive time while demanding even more energy use during the day and could give a crap about the end of the lifecycle of these things.

    Until a practical EV can be built for the price of a base Ford Maverick hybrid and nearly all the pieces be recycled safely without contaminating water and filling up toxic holes - i can only wish for better, much more affordable public mass transportation in every region of the country and extra burdensome fees placed on personal vehicles with extra thousand on EVs every year to put the pain right where it rightfully belongs to benefit majority equally. (that's what it will take to build and operate safe, small nuclear reactors which will be forced to come on line in everyone's neighborhood and disposal of nuclear waste to power this future of this EV crap.)
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 11-19-2022 at 11:19 AM.
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  32. #137
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    ^^^^^ and I thought I was the tip of cynicality...

  33. #138
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Too Little Time just explained he does not like mass transportation. The fact is most of you do not take mass transit except for flying commercial. Few of you ever advocate for more mass transit nor do you ever express the wonder of the local train or bus system in your region and how surprised you were at the service. The EV is the last differentiators between those who can ride and those who must suffer with the poor masses in the world of Covid and the legacy of fear exposure. Maybe the best example of liberal democrats hypocrisy - the promise to the rich without willing to fill out the society which best serves their ever growing poor community in the long run.
    I think you misunderstood my comments.

    I said that waiting in the weather was unpleasant. I expect the poor would have the same issue. I said it was expensive. I expect the poor would have the same issue. I said it was inconvenient when hauling around a family or even purchased goods. I expect the poor would have the same issue. I take it you don't find those issues to be important.

    There are a number of videos on Youtube exploring what makes a mass transit system useful (i.e. used). Very few communities can afford a useful fixed route mass transit system. There are a number of businesses that provide bus service from employee's homes to work and back. I suggested something similar in automatous electric vehicles with low enough fares.
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  34. #139
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe (SoCal) View Post
    Basically California is such a HUGE market for cars, so much so that when they changed and move to banning leaded gas cars, the automakers made the change. If they ban the sale of ICE cars the automakers will do the same. Sorry but after 2035 if you want to buy an ICE car it's probably gonna be a used one.
    Dunno why you think California ever banned "leaded gas cars". That has never happened, let alone in California. As for buying used cars, Cuba is still using cars made in the 1950s. With 250 million or so cars on the road today, lots of used cars will be around for maybe 50 years. I doubt the automakers will ever ban the sale of ICE cars, if only because no auto company can ban the sale of anything.

  35. #140
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    Default Re: EVís are becoming mainstream

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I think you misunderstood my comments.

    I said that waiting in the weather was unpleasant. I expect the poor would have the same issue. I said it was expensive. I expect the poor would have the same issue. I said it was inconvenient when hauling around a family or even purchased goods. I expect the poor would have the same issue. I take it you don't find those issues to be important.

    There are a number of videos on Youtube exploring what makes a mass transit system useful (i.e. used). Very few communities can afford a useful fixed route mass transit system. There are a number of businesses that provide bus service from employee's homes to work and back. I suggested something similar in automatous electric vehicles with low enough fares.
    TLt - I used you as an example but was not criticizing you and feel your doubts. Yes that train ride is expensive. Most people who use it are not poor. It is a legacy rail line since BART does not fully encircle the bay to San Jose - a dream that will not be complete until 2050, that will be 90 years in the making. But even BART - the train of tomorrow is way to high. But I still think electrified light rail is the way to go forward. it could be automated but there are serious safety issues that are rising every day which go beyond the actual operation and function. The crimes driven by opportunity, poverty and large mental illness in our general society make these options very sketchy. Richier folks like hurdles for those who they share space with to be high and that can be started with high fares.

    My great uncles designed and developed the GG1 for GE- it should have been the way of the future. If we made the commitment to use more rail and ran lighter rail and street cars off the spurs imagine how the carbon footprint would be reduced and better for the environment; it would be meeting our climate goals in a decade.
    The_Congressional_Pennsylvania_Railroad.jpg


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