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Thread: What does this to three strand?

  1. #1
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    Default What does this to three strand?

    I have some new polyester 3 strand I bought new from one supplier.
    I used it for my halyard and mainsheet.
    The halyard , after a few sailing jaunts quickly started having little loops pulled out of it.
    I checked my mast sheave and sanded down the edges of the slot a little, and I rounded off the edges of my mast partner/thwart where the halyard crosses over for the belaying pin and it still seemed to be developing little loops.

    I took the Halyard off as I wanted to switch to less stretchy yacht braid, but I kept using the mainsheet. Now it's showing the same little loops

    The Halyard went through the mast sheave and down to the belaying pin. The main sheet goes through a block and double block and through a cam cleat. Very different systems.

    I had some 1/4" polyester three strand from a popular US supplier and it seems quite firm, compact and in good condition after a full year of very frequent usage in a variety of weather and conditions.


    IMG_3919.jpg
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 11-13-2022 at 02:01 AM.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Three strand dacron is great for both traditional and small boat sheets and halyards. Dacron is a specific sort of polyester that's much less prone to hockeling the way your 'polyester' did. Get actual dacron.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    So its; the type of rope. not something on my boat raising my hockles?

    This rope seems loose, soft and less compact than the 1/4" I got from the other supplier which comparably feels firm and tight

    Too much downhaul tension?
    on this boat I have a6-1 ish purchase. On my shellback (with the other 3 strand) I had a 4 to one.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    It's a manufacturing defect, uneven tension or twist in one strand. I have found some 3 strand rope to hockle and others never to do so, given the exact same work over time.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    it look like nylon
    cheap nylon to boot
    buy better
    hockled junk
    nothing you did wrong but trust a supplier

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    It's a manufacturing defect, uneven tension or twist in one strand. I have found some 3 strand rope to hockle and others never to do so, given the exact same work over time.
    ^ This. Not all three strand is equal.
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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    I much prefer "brushed" Dacron instead of the glossy stuff. Edey & Duff outfitted their boats exclusively with brushed Dacron from New England Ropes. It never exhibited those loops, even after years of service.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Dacron is a specific sort of polyester that's much less prone to hockeling the way your 'polyester' did. Get actual dacron.
    Dacron is simply the trade name for polyester fiber made by Dupont (mostly for the American market). There is nothing magical or unique about it. In other countries the exact same stuff will often have a different name. It is what is done to the fibers in terms of twisting them together that makes good or bad three-strand rope. Fibers are twisted into tight bundles and the bundles are then twisted together. Anything which looks that soft is immediately suspect. Buy better quality rope and you won't have that problem. However, you will still most likely have a certain amount of hockling at times. That is simply the nature of the beast due to all the twisting needed to make it and why even though it may look more antique, three strand may not be the best choice for lines which are frequently adjusted. New England Ropes Spun Dacron (fuzzy outer surface) and Filament Dacron (not very fuzzy and less stretch) are the best that I know of.

    The three-strand shown here is NER Filament 3-Strand which has been stained using diluted wood stain (dye didn't work). I just took down some of it out in the garden which had been holding up my wife's raspberry plants for at least ten years. It survived the weather and sun surprisingly well. Even so, I doubt that I would use it for sheets or halyards. I would want something more reliable for running freely through blocks.

    stained-rope.jpg

    corner detail 1 copy.jpg

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Interestingly the company (who were very friendly) claimed their 3 strand was en par with New England Ropes. Apparently they were mistaken. The 3 strand I got last year from another supplier for my Shellback has held up well (as sheets and halyards) with no hockling despite hard usage over a year.(50+ days sailing in a variety of conditions) This hockled 3 strand also seemed to have much more stretch in it, which made for resetting the dowhaul regularly to maintain tension.I realize that 3 strand in general has more stretch due to the nature of it's construction.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Looks like soft lay "rope"

    "Rope" is available in several variations, from Hard Lay, through medium hard, medium, and etc until "soft lay" which looks like what you may have there (and there is Left lay (Lang Lay) right lay, 4 strand, 3 strand and etc)

    Soft lay is not the thing for running rigging, or a winch or windlass. It is nice for dock lines though (be sure to properly sew/seize your splices when using that stuff!)

    Stranded line for a halyard where it may repeatedly land on a sheave in the same place needs to be flipped end for end occasionally, and or shortend at the working end to move the place were it is constantly around the sheave. (There are "rules" for the size and profile of the sheave of course!)
    Hard lay line is approaching the feel of wire rope, and not much fun to splice. It is basically how "tight" the strands are twisted before laid up into "rope"
    (Anymore I only use stranded rope for dock lines, everything else is braided)

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Thanks, like Mr Bradshaw's post , that's great information . I have come to the same conclusion regarding running rigging. I always thought nylon was beter for docklines because of it's greater stretch, but I can see how a softer more stretchy polyester would be too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Looks like soft lay "rope"

    "Rope" is available in several variations, from Hard Lay, through medium hard, medium, and etc until "soft lay" which looks like what you may have there (and there is Left lay (Lang Lay) right lay, 4 strand, 3 strand and etc)

    Soft lay is not the thing for running rigging, or a winch or windlass. It is nice for dock lines though (be sure to properly sew/seize your splices when using that stuff!)

    Stranded line for a halyard where it may repeatedly land on a sheave in the same place needs to be flipped end for end occasionally, and or shortend at the working end to move the place were it is constantly around the sheave. (There are "rules" for the size and profile of the sheave of course!)
    Hard lay line is approaching the feel of wire rope, and not much fun to splice. It is basically how "tight" the strands are twisted before laid up into "rope"
    (Anymore I only use stranded rope for dock lines, everything else is braided)

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    It does not look at all like polyester.... it looks like a nylon blend....
    There is a joy in madness, that only mad men know. -Nieztsche

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Ain't it wonderful when opinion is buttressed with data!

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Looks like soft lay "rope"

    "Rope" is available in several variations, from Hard Lay, through medium hard, medium, and etc until "soft lay" which looks like what you may have there (and there is Left lay (Lang Lay) right lay, 4 strand, 3 strand and etc)

    Soft lay is not the thing for running rigging, or a winch or windlass. It is nice for dock lines though (be sure to properly sew/seize your splices when using that stuff!)

    Stranded line for a halyard where it may repeatedly land on a sheave in the same place needs to be flipped end for end occasionally, and or shortend at the working end to move the place were it is constantly around the sheave. (There are "rules" for the size and profile of the sheave of course!)
    Hard lay line is approaching the feel of wire rope, and not much fun to splice. It is basically how "tight" the strands are twisted before laid up into "rope"
    (Anymore I only use stranded rope for dock lines, everything else is braided)
    So, where does one find these options in quality 3-strand? NER appears to have only "soft" in filamentous poly. I'm looking for a hank of mod rigid trad-looking line 3-strand that I can use to lasso my fisherman's anchor by the bill and cat it to the rail.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Brown View Post
    So, where does one find these options in quality 3-strand? NER appears to have only "soft" in filamentous poly. I'm looking for a hank of mod rigid trad-looking line 3-strand that I can use to lasso my fisherman's anchor by the bill and cat it to the rail.

    New England Rope's Spun Classic or Vintage 3-Strand.

    Spun Classic is white, short fiber dacron. Looks like cotton rope. Vintage 3-strand is a mixture of short-strand and long fiber dacron and is more of a khaki/amber color. Looks more like hemp.

    https://www.neropes.com/products/traditional-rigging/
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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Try looking at Hempex or New england ropes "Vintage" sta set 3 strand. (although I find the vintage stayset fades fast)
    There is a joy in madness, that only mad men know. -Nieztsche

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    Default

    The NE Rope Spun Classic is a pretty hard lay-up. It splices well, but like all synthetics, once you unlay it, the individual yarns want to unravel, so take care to tape they end of each yarn.

    If you're doing a circular splice or a long splice, Brion Toss suggested soaking the work piece in cheap hair gel and letting it dry before disassembly.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Brown View Post
    So, where does one find these options in quality 3-strand? NER appears to have only "soft" in filamentous poly. I'm looking for a hank of mod rigid trad-looking line 3-strand that I can use to lasso my fisherman's anchor by the bill and cat it to the rail.
    The reason I have switched almost entirely to modern braided and double braided line. It is most important to me that this operation works well not that it looks "good" Braided Sheets (not synthetic) for yachts go way back, certainly far enough for me to claim originality. Along with my ivory colored whalebone mast hoops made from pvc pipe and seized on with tarred Dacron marline. (Said smugly, with hubris trying to catch me out as I sail upwind through the lee of another small craft with (slightly) sagging spars, twisted, and flattened sails!)

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    The NER filament (hardest finish and lowest stretch) line that I use is now just called their "Classic" three-strand. It only comes in white and black, but I stain the white to a tan shade by dunking it quickly in the "Early American" shade of Minwax oil stain and then rinsing it really well in naphtha and then Dawn and water. It doesn't fade much at all, even after years of exposure. It is not fuzzy like the Spun Classic version, so it is better for lines which don't frequently get hand-held, but it has their lowest stretch characteristics of the available three-strand offerings.

    I had originally tried typical fabric dye and found that about all it did was make dirty white line. The idea behind using the wood stain instead was the thought that if you spill wood stain on a T-shirt, you can probably rinse enough out with thinner that it won't make a stiff spot, but you aren't likely to ever get all the color out. On the filament rope, this works well, using a dark brown stain and ending up with a nice tan color after most of it has washed out. On the spun, fuzzy stuff it didn't work, and a shade of unattractive dirty white was about as far as it would go.

    It is also possible to untwist the three strands, shave each one into a taper, wax them and twist them back together, making three-strand line which tapers out, rather than being chopped off. I have used this on sail edges in transition from roped sections to non-roped sections, as well as making eye splices or rope grommets which don't have the big and obvious step-down where they transition from two layers down to one layer. I originally wasn't sure that it could be done, since the polyester fibers are so much softer than natural cordage fibers where this was originally done, but with a bit of practice and patience it can work just fine.
    Instructions are here:

    http://www.frayedknotarts.com/tutorials/rattail.html

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    The NE Rope Spun Classic is a pretty hard lay-up. It splices well, but like all synthetics, once you unlay it, the individual yarns want to unravel, so take care to tape they end of each yarn.

    If you're doing a circular splice or a long splice, Brion Toss suggested soaking the work piece in cheap hair gel and letting it dry before disassembly.
    In lieu of cheap hair gel, dreadlock moisturizer is my go to .

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Aha! I knew Wizbang was a bot!

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    In lieu of cheap hair gel, dreadlock moisturizer is my go to .

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    Default

    "What does this to 3-strand?"

    IMG_3919.jpg

    My initial response was going to be, "crappy, cheap sh*te Chinese rope walks", but I refrained.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    I was offered some of the NER classic polyester 3 strand as a replacement for the hockled 3 strand which seems to be a 'medium' lay

    I know braided rope is better for halyards and sheets with less stretch, but is the classic 3 strand mentioned above decent in those applications?
    It's not like I'm racing. I would however prefer not to be adjusting my downhaul all day and have gotten past having to have the perfect 'look'

    Interesting on the traditionally built Gartside I don't feel the same need to have everything look as traditional as I did on my glued lap Shellback dinghy. I believe it was some sort of compensatory aesthetic with the Shellback. I know, ridiculous.



    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    The NER filament (hardest finish and lowest stretch) line that I use is now just called their "Classic" three-strand. It only comes in white and black, but I stain the white to a tan shade by dunking it quickly in the "Early American" shade of Minwax oil stain and then rinsing it really well in naphtha and then Dawn and water. It doesn't fade much at all, even after years of exposure. It is not fuzzy like the Spun Classic version, so it is better for lines which don't frequently get hand-held, but it has their lowest stretch characteristics of the available three-strand offerings.


    I had originally tried typical fabric dye and found that about all it did was make dirty white line. The idea behind using the wood stain instead was the thought that if you spill wood stain on a T-shirt, you can probably rinse enough out with thinner that it won't make a stiff spot, but you aren't likely to ever get all the color out. On the filament rope, this works well, using a dark brown stain and ending up with a nice tan color after most of it has washed out. On the spun, fuzzy stuff it didn't work, and a shade of unattractive dirty white was about as far as it would go.

    It is also possible to untwist the three strands, shave each one into a taper, wax them and twist them back together, making three-strand line which tapers out, rather than being chopped off. I have used this on sail edges in transition from roped sections to non-roped sections, as well as making eye splices or rope grommets which don't have the big and obvious step-down where they transition from two layers down to one layer. I originally wasn't sure that it could be done, since the polyester fibers are so much softer than natural cordage fibers where this was originally done, but with a bit of practice and patience it can work just fine.
    Instructions are here:

    http://www.frayedknotarts.com/tutorials/rattail.html

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Decent? Yes, and most likely the best choice of the 3-strand offerings for those jobs, but still probably not the absolute best overall choice for such stuff. Note that there are even substantial differences in the stretch of more modern lines having a woven sheath over a core. Most have a woven or braided inner core. Those which are the most stretch-resistant (sta-set types) use the woven core over a straight, non-woven bundle of core fibers. By eliminating the over/under/over/under of the woven core fibers you eliminate a great deal of the line's stretch.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    I originally rigged my Biscayne Bay 14 with NER polyester 3 strand for all the running rigging. I have changed the halyards over to Sta Set, I found the 3 strand too stretchy especially for the main. I quite like the spun 3 strand for sheets, however. It's very nice to handle.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Todd that's truly impressive!

    I've used your wood stain idea to 'knock down' plain white line of various types since I read about it here, it's worked every time!

    The above-described technique I'll save for a time when it will come in handy! Knowing how to accomplish something is 90% of overcoming the trepidation over attempting something new for the first time.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    I agree, the root cause is in the manufacturing. I deal with the same issues with electric wire and cable that is used in high flex applications. You have to know how to make the stuff (my specialty).
    I could get into the nuances, it has to do with tension control (as mentioned), but then also controlling the back twist, and “neutralizing” the individual elements as they are cabled together.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Quote Originally Posted by nrs5000 View Post
    I originally rigged my Biscayne Bay 14 with NER polyester 3 strand for all the running rigging. I have changed the halyards over to Sta Set, I found the 3 strand too stretchy especially for the main. I quite like the spun 3 strand for sheets, however. It's very nice to handle.
    Hey what size STA set did you use for your halyard. I'm currently using some 5/16" yacht braid on mine, it's string enough, but it seems a little narrow in the hand for dragging up the spars on my lug sail....I just realized your boat is a bermuda slopp. Still I'd be interested.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    I have a little trouble with the "Not racing" analogy.
    Even though you are "not racing", any sailboat is a challenge to yourself to perform as well as you can (within reason) Those small details such as line stretch will influence luff tension, outhaul adjustments on both boom and yard, and among other things sail shape and they all add up making your boat more enjoyable.
    An automotive analogy might be "I'm not racing, so who cares if this engine has a dead cylinder?"

    The sails are your engine...

  30. #30
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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Halyards are 1/4” and the stretch is acceptable. Since I am not hoisting a yard I don’t need something bigger for the hand. A bigger line will stretch less. At some point it might add enough windage to impact performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    Hey what size STA set did you use for your halyard. I'm currently using some 5/16" yacht braid on mine, it's string enough, but it seems a little narrow in the hand for dragging up the spars on my lug sail....I just realized your boat is a bermuda slopp. Still I'd be interested.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    I think you might've misunderstood what I was intending to say.

    By 'not racing' I mean I don't necessarily need the latest and greatest dyeema line, racing blocks and all the lightweight fast fast stuff, not only would it look weird on my lovely little boat but the small increments of performance it would give me wouldn't be worth it.

    I think if you have any sort of traditional row/sailboat, You work with what you have, and enjoy it for what it is.
    Just the fact that I added a sprit and small headsails to this design shows that I enjoy performance and interactive sailing.
    I also ditched the 3 strand for halyards and control lines.

    I think for my meaning , a more appropriate automotive analogy would be "I'm not racing, so I don't need huge soft wide tires, a high performance gas drinking engine, spoilers, one bucket seat with a roll cage, a tiny steering wheel etc. etc.

    Yes my engine.I agree, and I have no doubt you have more experience than I and I have used much of your excellent advice ,however on my smart car I wouldn't put in performance plugs , fat tires or all the stuff people use for race cars. It's a fun commuter vehicle. It'll never be a race car and trying to make it one would be fruitless...maybe funny but expensive and needlessly costly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I have a little trouble with the "Not racing" analogy.
    Even though you are "not racing", any sailboat is a challenge to yourself to perform as well as you can (within reason) Those small details such as line stretch will influence luff tension, outhaul adjustments on both boom and yard, and among other things sail shape and they all add up making your boat more enjoyable.
    An automotive analogy might be "I'm not racing, so who cares if this engine has a dead cylinder?"

    The sails are your engine...
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 11-19-2022 at 01:13 AM.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    Hey what size STA set did you use for your halyard. I'm currently using some 5/16" yacht braid on mine, it's string enough, but it seems a little narrow in the hand for dragging up the spars on my lug sail....I just realized your boat is a bermuda slopp. Still I'd be interested.

    If you're considering Sta-Set, look at NE Ropes' Sta-Set X. It has an unbraided parallel core. And n terms of stretch, it's something like 90% of the exotics at a fraction of the price - Sta-Set X is about 3-1/2 % elongation at 30% of tensile strength. Something like Endura Braid (Dyneema) is about half that. Ordinary polyester/Dacron double braid is maybe 10% (or more).
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    Canoeyawl nailed it. Try to find hard lay 3 strand dac for best hockle resistance...the lay is how tight the strands and filaments are woven...soft lay hockle way more. Look for continuous filament and you won't get those fuzzies sticking out. Rope mfgs used to advertise lay and filament length options but you have to look hard to find it now. Mapleleaf advertises hard lay nylon but says nothing about their polyester (dac) specs.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    New England ropes vintage 3 strand has proven itself over 11000 miles for me. A multi part purchase will twist some when tensioning new rope, but after working out the initial twists it is good long lasting stuff. They make a double braid in the same color that is even better if you aren't set on 3 strand. I forget the name but it might be called vintage as well.

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    Default Re: What does this to three strand?

    I use NE Ropes vintage 3-strand, looks good, has a nice hand and wears well.
    Steve

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