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Thread: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

  1. #1
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    Default Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    The most disruptive thing to hit Gas Stations? Very interesting article that I am still digesting.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...cture-00063398

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Gasoline, electricity, sugar, fat, maybe hydrogen one day. And beer.

    They will be ok.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    That was good. The power draw of fast chargers is huge.
    Last edited by LeeG; 11-01-2022 at 10:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    My dad was born in 1913. When he was 10, he was put to work in his father’s pharmacy. They had a gas pump outside on the sidewalk. A driver would come into the store, pay for 5 gallons, and the 10 year old would take a crank handle out to the pump. He would turn the crank, pumping petrol into a large glass tank on top of the column. When it reached the 5 gal mark, he would take a hose and put it in the car’s tank, usually a cap in front of the windshield, and turn a valve. Gravity would drain the pump into the car.

    Times change.
    ITS CHAOS, BE KIND

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    The interesting thing about this is the "free market". Gas stations in an effort to support their business find suppliers that can get them fuel for less making their products more affordable. It is a highly competitive market. They won't be able to do that with electricity - it costs them the same as the station down the road. I thank it will result in the elimination of traditional gas stations completely. In its place municipalities will provide vacant lots where various charging station companies can access the grid and pay a modest rent to the municipality for the privilege of being there. Possibly some companies can undercut their competition by getting guaranteed rates based on volume of electricity or on reduced rent based on the number of locations they occupy. The only ones that will be competitive are the large businesses that can convert high volume into reduced costs for space and energy. I don't think there will be the traditional gas station any more there is a Blockbuster Video in your local community.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    good article. jeez, i'm glad to not be involved. well, not directly anyway.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    The interesting thing about this is the "free market". Gas stations in an effort to support their business find suppliers that can get them fuel for less making their products more affordable. It is a highly competitive market. They won't be able to do that with electricity - it costs them the same as the station down the road. I thank it will result in the elimination of traditional gas stations completely. In its place municipalities will provide vacant lots where various charging station companies can access the grid and pay a modest rent to the municipality for the privilege of being there. Possibly some companies can undercut their competition by getting guaranteed rates based on volume of electricity or on reduced rent based on the number of locations they occupy. The only ones that will be competitive are the large businesses that can convert high volume into reduced costs for space and energy. I don't think there will be the traditional gas station any more there is a Blockbuster Video in your local community.
    “traditional gas stations” where there was a garage and mechanic disappeared a long time ago. Tradition changes.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Yesterday I drove to the local Chevron station in my Tesla to................................












    buy a lottery ticket.
    This post is temporary and my disappear at the discretion of the managment

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    “traditional gas stations” where there was a garage and mechanic disappeared a long time ago. Tradition changes.
    I specifically said Traditional Gas Stations. What you are referring to were traditionally called "Service Stations".

    This has been the traditional gas station for over 40 years....



    Screenshot 2.jpg

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Back before electric lighting there were more than twenty local stores that sold kerosene. The stores were spread out within walking distance (about a mile) of every home and business in town. They'd carry their small kerosene cans to the stores and fill up. There are now only two gas stations here.
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    We lived in Milwaukie Oregon 2008 - 2012. There was a service station. 2 bays. 1 lift. Full selection of v-belts and bulbs and fuses etc. There was even a guy with greasy fingernails.
    I just looked on google maps. Still there. Bit of a remodel, but the bays are still there.
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    My dad was born in 1913. When he was 10, he was put to work in his father’s pharmacy. They had a gas pump outside on the sidewalk. A driver would come into the store, pay for 5 gallons, and the 10 year old would take a crank handle out to the pump. He would turn the crank, pumping petrol into a large glass tank on top of the column. When it reached the 5 gal mark, he would take a hose and put it in the car’s tank, usually a cap in front of the windshield, and turn a valve. Gravity would drain the pump into the car.

    Times change.
    Not so quickly- I remember hand cranked petrol pumps with 1 gallon glass containers being used for my dad around 1950.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    When I was five I "filled-up" dads car with a hose... Well, that's what you do right?

    I still remember him pulling the fuel tank off and out from under the '49 chevy, dumping it out on a pile of leaves and lighting it all on fire the next day.
    I don't remember getting in any particular trouble for that however. The embarrassment was enough I guess...

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    When I was five I "filled-up" dads car with a hose... Well, that's what you do right?

    I still remember him pulling the fuel tank off and out from under the '49 chevy, dumping it out on a pile of leaves and lighting it all on fire the next day.
    I don't remember getting in any particular trouble for that however. The embarrassment was enough I guess...
    Sounds like something I would have done, but of all the mischief I got into, this was not one of them.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    I must be naive. Seems to me if I were in the gas/oil business, I'd be inclined to put a foot into new stuff. Why do I care if you pay me to fill your tank or charge your battery.

    I still think half hour charging time will be a problem.
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    This is what I think about. Production of Electricity and our grid, which last time I checked, it was in dire need of restructuring. Will the info on this chart hold true? Will there be more production from renewables? than what is predicted?

    https://blog.ucsusa.org/sandra-sattl...-outlook-2022/
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    It does seem much easier here, on some of the long stretches between potential recharge points the government has been setting up chargers in rest areas, and on of our major chains of gas stations has bought a company that is now setting up chargers in their forecourts.
    Most supermarkets have some carpark lots set up with chargers, all run off your credit or debit card and home chargers are no problem to get installed.

    I drive back and forth to my mothers home pretty regularly, its about 3 hours each way and to relieve the boredom I used to count the different brands of trucks I spotted, the record so far is 26.
    But of late I'd count the number of electric cars I'd see, but my last few trips saw the numbers getting too high to keep in my head so I was just counting the number of Tesla I saw, and even those numbers are gaining rapidly.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    I ran a petrol station for a few years.

    We took the best part of 20 million a year. Ten thousand customers a week. We drained a tanker a day. We were adjacent - and part of - a supermarket, driving customers both ways.

    Profits? Here's the actual mark up (that I was sworn to secrecy):

    Car wash. 5000%
    A coffee. 2500%
    A chocolate bar. 200%
    Fuel. 102%

    We couldn't make a profit on fuel alone, not enough to pay for costs, for salaries, for electricity or maintenance. The 'driver' was the peripherals. Screenwash, logs, biscuits, cigarettes, junk? We got them. Cough up. The indies had to go 110% on fuel to merely tread water.

    What I find interesting is that a maybe half-hour charge for electric vehicles (compared to two minutes hanging around at a pump) chimes better with a biggish personal shop. I can see supermarkets offering way-better electricity charges (while you trundle your trolley around the store) than any independent refuelling station can ever afford to match.

    Factor in charging at home, and you'll see that independent charging stations (outwith motorways and main trunk routes) are going to be dead, quite quickly.

    Andy
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    All I see being discussed here is charging for passenger cars. What about the commercial vehicles? Most corner gas stations and supermarket parking lots are not equipped to handle most of these vehicles due to their size. For commercial vehicles, it makes more sense to equip existing truck stops with equipment for whatever fuel they take.
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofswen View Post
    This is what I think about. Production of Electricity and our grid, which last time I checked, it was in dire need of restructuring. Will the info on this chart hold true? Will there be more production from renewables? than what is predicted?

    https://blog.ucsusa.org/sandra-sattl...-outlook-2022/
    My guess is that the graph “has to” go up because if it doesn’t it means a whole lot of correlations between economic growth and energy consumption have ended. So the graph maker decided for GHG emissions renewables will make up the difference. I think if one digs into the composition of the renewables it may not be that easy. Let’s check back in ten years.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Katherine View Post
    All I see being discussed here is charging for passenger cars. What about the commercial vehicles? Most corner gas stations and supermarket parking lots are not equipped to handle most of these vehicles due to their size. For commercial vehicles, it makes more sense to equip existing truck stops with equipment for whatever fuel they take.
    For sure. And then dial in what they need for an hour over what they needed in a few minutes.

    Which isn't your average truck stop.

    Maybe a battery-swap has something going for it.

    Andy
    "In case of fire ring Fellside 75..."

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    For sure. And then dial in what they need for an hour over what they needed in a few minutes.

    Which isn't your average truck stop.

    Maybe a battery-swap has something going for it.

    Andy
    Given the rules for down time, a 1/2 to an hour stop wouldn't be that big a deal for some.
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Fair enough, for commercials under tachographs and/or equivalents.

    Andy
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post

    Maybe a battery-swap has something going for it.

    Andy
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Katherine View Post
    All I see being discussed here is charging for passenger cars. What about the commercial vehicles? Most corner gas stations and supermarket parking lots are not equipped to handle most of these vehicles due to their size. For commercial vehicles, it makes more sense to equip existing truck stops with equipment for whatever fuel they take.

    The Nikola Tre BEV uses industry-standard charging connections, CCS1 and CCS2. We know the transition to zero-emissions can be difficult, so we offer consultation services to help you set up mobile charging solutions to get you on the road quickly and permanent charging solutions to help you scale up to meet the needs of your zero-emission fleet.
    nikola_tre_bev_contact-93192b59103d959aa717123ef768196257569d98017bb2038083c855e375d077.jpg
    https://nikolamotor.com/tre-bev
    Last edited by sonofswen; 11-01-2022 at 10:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Nikola's original claim to fame was its hybrid fuel cell technology, which is cool, but the first run of Tre trucks isn't hydrogen-powered. Instead, they're fully battery-electric, with a range of around 350 miles.Mar 24, 2022

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    My take is gas stations--fueling and charging stations-- will not die. There will continue to be a need for people to charge in the middle of a longer trip, vacation or what have you. Replacing the Quik-E-Mart with a smart coffee shop a'la Starbucks makes sense for those.

    But I think along with electrification will ( or must) also come cultural change. Dedicated trips just to charge the car will be replaced by charging at home, plus charging at grocery stores, movie theaters and other retailers as well as municipalities.Our vehicles will charge while we are doing something else we have to do, whether that is shopping, attending a concert, appearing for a traffic ticket, or sleeping in our homes.

    As an aside, I used Uber last week in Ft Lauderdale, Florida. 90-degrees F and I got picked up in a Tesla 3. The air conditioning was on. I asked the driver his range. He claimed to get at least 200 miles--more if driving around town, less if he does more highway driving.

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    My take is gas stations--fueling and charging stations-- will not die. There will continue to be a need for people to charge in the middle of a longer trip, vacation or what have you. Replacing the Quik-E-Mart with a smart coffee shop a'la Starbucks makes sense for those.

    But I think along with electrification will ( or must) also come cultural change. Dedicated trips just to charge the car will be replaced by charging at home, plus charging at grocery stores, movie theaters and other retailers as well as municipalities.Our vehicles will charge while we are doing something else we have to do, whether that is shopping, attending a concert, appearing for a traffic ticket, or sleeping in our homes.

    As an aside, I used Uber last week in Ft Lauderdale, Florida. 90-degrees F and I got picked up in a Tesla 3. The air conditioning was on. I asked the driver his range. He claimed to get at least 200 miles--more if driving around town, less if he does more highway driving.

    Kevin
    But the logistics are so different. Gas Stations require large tanks placed underground with regular deliveries from tankers. You need real estate and a lot of environmental controls. Charging stations only require a paved parking space adjacent to electrical service. So any rest stop on the highway can accommodate charging stations. Larger (or any company for that matter) companies can outfit their parking lot with charging stations. It is an entirely different economy.


    I don't think you will need or see many stand alone charging stations - it will all be decentralized.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Lots of stations here with Smog Checks and service bays.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    #18.... yes.

    An acquaintance owned the local Mobil station with 3 service bays which were always busy. Sometime in the mid 90s he retired himself from turning wrenches, which left him the time/headspace to actually look at his numbers. He eliminated the service bays and renovated it into an early version of the now common coffee/convenience shop that happens to sell gas (and have an automated car wash). Everyone thought he was nuts, except the other gas station owners. Within ten years he owned something like 8 other stations and a handful of dunkin donuts spots.

    In theory the roadtrip recharges should happen someplace where there's something to do during the half hour recharge. Shopping malls seem like the no-brainers. Museums and other roadside attractions could find increased traffic perhaps.
    In reality... I dunno. We seem so culturally adverse to leaving the vehicle. I see lots of EVs charging (even at the local mall) with the occupants just chilling in the car catching up on social media etc. Maybe we aren't really interested in having something to do.
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatbum View Post
    The interesting thing about this is the "free market". Gas stations in an effort to support their business find suppliers that can get them fuel for less making their products more affordable. It is a highly competitive market. They won't be able to do that with electricity - it costs them the same as the station down the road.
    Not exactly. I work at a casino. We do not pay a by the kilowatt price for our power. We negotiated a flat monthly fee no matter no matter how much or how little we use. The corner gas station may not have that option, but a bigger operation like Wawa, Sheetz, or any of the big corporate owned stations will be able to. They may also be able to put solar on the roof to help offset their electrical demand.
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Katherine View Post
    All I see being discussed here is charging for passenger cars. What about the commercial vehicles? Most corner gas stations and supermarket parking lots are not equipped to handle most of these vehicles due to their size. For commercial vehicles, it makes more sense to equip existing truck stops with equipment for whatever fuel they take.
    I imagine with the large commercial vehicles, they will be able to carry much more battery capacity. They will either have to carry less tonnage or the DOT will have to rewrite the gross tonnage rules to allow for more batteries, but underneath every commercial truck is a lot of negative space. Even small box trucks have plenty of space beneath the box and next to the frame for large batteries. If they go with axle mounted motors, that frees up even more space where the transmission and driveshaft went. Just think if every semi-truck trailer also had a battery pack beneath it that could be plugged into the tractor?
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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Art, those batteries still need suitable charging stations.

    And those charging stations need adequate energy supply. We're a whole-grid upgrade away from any significant portion of our commercial freight vehicles going electric.
    At some point in that upgrade design, someone is going to do the math on investing in rail upgrades instead.
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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    Charging stations may need electricity storage and electricity may need to cost more. Why don’t semis develop hybrid systems?

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    Default Re: Gas Stations Hidden Battle

    But the logistics are so different. Gas Stations require large tanks placed underground with regular deliveries from tankers. You need real estate and a lot of environmental controls. Charging stations only require a paved parking space adjacent to electrical service. So any rest stop on the highway can accommodate charging stations. Larger (or any company for that matter) companies can outfit their parking lot with charging stations. It is an entirely different economy.


    I am saying there is an opportunity to sell other products and services to people waiting for the vehicle battery to charge ( Though Figment may be on to something with his observation about people being satisfied to sit and use their phones for 30 minutes or an hour).

    Then, from a consumer standpoint, why go to a " station" when I can charge at a variety of other places where the vehicle will remain dormant anyway?


    I don't think you will need or see many stand alone charging stations - it will all be decentralized.
    "All" is a bold statement. We will see.

    Kevin
    Last edited by Breakaway; 11-02-2022 at 10:15 AM.
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