Nancy Pelosi's husband having brain surgery following an attack ... with a hammer

[LeeG]

Saudi - but VFP would have opposed that too.

Invading Saudi Arabia would no more address Al Qaeda than invading Illinois would fix crime in Chicago. Al Qaeda and other militant jihadi aren’t agents of the Saudi Gov’t.

[Peerie Maa]

Where were you in 2003 . . . ???

Back then a mistake I made was not forcing them to arrest me.

I should have done that - it was my patriotic duty.

Well, I suppose that would have made you feel victimised and boosted your ego. But that would have been all you could have achieved.

[sandtown]

Sorry about the thread drift . .

how about if we all blame HR and gang up on him ??

Yeh, that's the ticket !!

[CWSmith]

There was no “right country” to invade wrt counterterrorism against OBL and Al Qaeda. Military action to attack concentrations of Al Qaeda can be justified but willy nilly regime change violating the sovereignty of Iraq and the loosely held gov’t of Afghanistan wasn’t. Attacking those countries didn’t diminish the roots of militant jihadism as expressed on 9/11. And after nearly two decades I’m not hearing any future historians lauding the wars. Sure would have been nice to spend those trillions on something else. Oh right, millions of people forced out of homes as well as 100,000’s killed.

Yes, I knew someone would dissect that statement.

I think that invading Iraq was entirely misguided. Invading Afghanistan was foolish. I despise the regime that was running Afghanistan then and now, but the invasion was badly miscalculated.

However, Afghanistan did (partially) shelter terrorists including the leadership. I think we should have sent a small group in to assassinate the leaders and then get out. In the end, that's what we did (although not in Afghanistan).

[Peerie Maa]

Sorry about the thread drift . .

how about if we all blame HR and gang up on him ??

Nah. How about you stop flogging a dead horse and climb up into the light and fresh air and talk boats?

[Garret]

Yes, I knew someone would dissect that statement.

I think that invading Iraq was entirely misguided. Invading Afghanistan was foolish. I despise the regime that was running Afghanistan then and now, but the invasion was badly miscalculated.

However, Afghanistan did (partially) shelter terrorists including the leadership. I think we should have sent a small group in to assassinate the leaders and then get out. In the end, that's what we did (although not in Afghanistan).

Who coulda possibly guessed that invading Afghanistan might not go well? It's not like there'd been other countries that tried & failed...

[sandtown]

Nah. How about you stop flogging a dead horse and climb up into the light and fresh air and talk boats?

I spent the afternoon volunteering at the most famous NC Maritime Museum - business was slow, I talked boats with the staff.

[CWSmith]

Who coulda possibly guessed that invading Afghanistan might not go well? It's not like there'd been other countries that tried & failed...

Sarcasm doesn't work well for me (on line), but I did get that one.

[WI-Tom]

It was well reported in the USA, if only one read. It seems we just wanted to go to war; no need for a reason.

Yes, this is certainly how I remember it. I listen to NPR, read good long-form journalism that avoids the sound-bite culture. And I knew WMD was almost certainly a myth, and that what evidence there was was extremely questionable (and some undeniably fraudulent). And I knew that W. ordered the invasion despite Iraq giving full access to Hans Blix and his teams. I knew it from the media reporting, as I have no back channel to the White House, now or then.

It bothers me a lot when people make sweepingly wrong generalizations about "the media" blah blah blah. The media includes lots of conscientious journalists and editorial staff, and is one of the central institutions necessary for democratic governance.

We live in an age where people seem to delight in bashing every and any institution of democratic governance that crosses their path, ignoring the fact that it is these institutions--and our trust in them--that we rely on every day.

Tom

[sandtown]

It was well reported in the USA, if only one read. It seems we just wanted to go to war; no need for a reason.

Who is this "we" of which you speak ?? Not Vets For Peace for sure.

And it is passing strange to me that so many here do not apply the lessons they should have learned in 2003 to the current war du jour.

[WI-Tom]

Who is this "we" of which you speak ?? Not Vets For Peace for sure.

And it is passing strange to me that so many here do not apply the lessons they should have learned in 2003 to the current war du jour.

A pre-emptive invasion based on falsified evidence is not going to have many lessons to learn about a war of defense that only the aggressor wanted to happen.

No one wants this war. But many of us, including me, believe that standing by and letting Russia invade another nation will be incredibly destructive to our hopes of a global society based on international law.

Tom

[Garret]

A pre-emptive invasion based on falsified evidence is not going to have many lessons to learn about a war of defense that only the aggressor wanted to happen.

No one wants this war. But many of us, including me, believe that standing by and letting Russia invade another nation will be incredibly destructive to our hopes of a global society based on international law.

Tom

Yep. When a playground bully steals a little kid's lunch, I guess one is supposed to just watch & not do anything.

[Peerie Maa]

Who is this "we" of which you speak ?? Not Vets For Peace for sure.

And it is passing strange to me that so many here do not apply the lessons they should have learned in 2003 to the current war du jour.

"We" dont need to learn any lessons from that war. It is Pootin and Russia who should learn from that excersize, if anyone.

[Osborne Russell]

Erm..... no. What a silly, restrictive thing to say, or believe.

Perfect vs. good.

The conscience of the individual is tormented by the foreign policy of their nation [apologies if it's the wrong pronoun/possessive adjective], but, it does not follow that refined, curating fortification of the individual conscience is all there is to it. Politics is the art of the possible, some Nazi once said, and as reality confirms.

[John Smith]

It was well reported in the USA, if only one read. It seems we just wanted to go to war; no need for a reason.

In my book, written around that time, I opposed both wars. Al Qaeda was NOT a country, and invading two countries made no sense. I did not believe Saddam had any WMD's.

I believe my suggestion was to try to form some sort of multi-national force that would not be bound by borders to fight such groups.

I feel a bit bad for keeping this drift of thread going.

[sandtown]

"We" dont need to learn any lessons from that war. It is Pootin and Russia who should learn from that excersize, if anyone.

I'll wager you drank of that Neo-Con koolaid in 2003, and still are in 2023

[sandtown]

Invading Saudi Arabia would no more address Al Qaeda than invading Illinois would fix crime in Chicago. Al Qaeda and other militant jihadi aren’t agents of the Saudi Gov’t.

I suggest you look into all the aid that the Saudi gummint, including their DC embassy, gave the hijackers.

[LeeG]

Yes, I knew someone would dissect that statement.

I think that invading Iraq was entirely misguided. Invading Afghanistan was foolish. I despise the regime that was running Afghanistan then and now, but the invasion was badly miscalculated.

However, Afghanistan did (partially) shelter terrorists including the leadership. I think we should have sent a small group in to assassinate the leaders and then get out. In the end, that's what we did (although not in Afghanistan).

counterterrorism is not hegemonic warfare. There was less justification for invading Iraq than Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Those costly “lessons of Vietnam” were tragically sacrificed by Colin Powell in full view of the world.

wrt HRDavies trolling efforts he gets an A+.

[Peerie Maa]

I'll wager you drank of that Neo-Con koolaid in 2003, and still are in 2023

how much will you wager? I could do with some spare cash.

[LeeG]

I suggest you look into all the aid that the Saudi gummint, including their DC embassy, gave the hijackers.

The Saudi gummint like the US gummint assists its citizens overseas. The militant jihadism that is indigenous to Saudi Arabia, spread by petro dollars and partnered with by the US gov’t still does not make this movement an agent of the gov’t anymore than a criminal informant cooperating with the FBI neans that the FBI runs all organized crime.

Militant jihadism like Al Qaeda and many others is a threat to and a response to rapid changes that have occured in the Middle East from colonialism to the rapid changes brought by oil wealth. Look up the 1979 attack on the Grand Mosque.
Sure there can be individuals in Saudi gov’t, like we have Ollie North and MacFarland setting up operation against Congresses wishes, to channel funds to militant groups as occured after our invasion of Iraq. We put a target on Sunni’s in Iraq’s gov’t that other Iraqi’s were glad to go after which resulted in misc. people in other countries sending aid to fill that power vacuum.
US talking heads were blaming Iran for a civil war we helped create while Saudi’s and other wealth people in the region were sending aid to militant Sunni groups in Iraq to prevent their slaughter.
Other gov’ts aren’t monolithic entities any more than ours is.

[sandtown]

The Saudi gummint like the US gummint assists its citizens overseas. .

Saudi money has backed Wahabi radicalism all over the world.

Both ISS and Al qaeda were/are close to being projects of the royal family.

But you do make some good points.

[CWSmith]

counterterrorism is not hegemonic warfare. There was less justification for invading Iraq than Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Those costly “lessons of Vietnam” were tragically sacrificed by Colin Powell in full view of the world.

I don't disagree with you in the slightest. To that, I would add that our own Revolutionary War should have taught us something about the locals fighting the most powerful military on Earth.

[LeeG]

Yep. When a playground bully steals a little kid's lunch, I guess one is supposed to just watch & not do anything.

Unless the bully is us, our coalition of the contracted and allied countries then we do as we wish and the less powerful suffer. And because we collectively don’t suffer directly we will ok the next dumb ass provocation in the name of spreading democracy.

[skuthorp]

Unless the bully is us, our coalition of the contracted and allied countries then we do as we wish and the less powerful suffer. And because we collectively don’t suffer directly we will ok the next dumb ass provocation in the name of spreading democracy.

There is bags of truth in that, and Aussie lickspittle politicians have followed American orders every time including Vietnam. And in that case we actually knew the whole show was based on a lie, but still our government tailed along and the country and those sent on false pretences are still paying, and then theres the dead. The politicians concerned are guilty of mass manslaughter.
And then there was Iraq, and Afghanistan. It was known publicly that it was a fiction, but still America snapped it's fingers and we jumped.

And now we have contracted out Australia's defence to America lock, lock stock and barrel. Another Conservative government commitment, the present one had no actual choice, we had gotten our orders.
So if in 2 years we have a war with China as some American military think, they can shoot missiles at us not the American mainland, and greatly reduce the chance of a serious strike on the American mainland.

[Garret]

Unless the bully is us, our coalition of the contracted and allied countries then we do as we wish and the less powerful suffer. And because we collectively don’t suffer directly we will ok the next dumb ass provocation in the name of spreading democracy.

You will get zero argument from me about the US being a bully - but it's only a bully when it suits the politician du jour or their corporate sponsors. Going into Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia is an example.

[sandtown]

So if in 2 years we have a war with China as some American military think, they can shoot missiles at us not the American mainland, and greatly reduce the chance of a serious strike on the American mainland.

Well, if we are going to drift the thread, we may as go all the way.

There is a Vets For Peace chapter on Okinawa, one of the staging areas for the coming war with China . . The Okinawans have resisted both the US and Japan for a long time.

(Appropos of something, when I was in Vietnam there was a kid of Okinawan descent in our unit. He was a terrific poker player, and cleaned out the NCO's regularly.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5qKSsnDhos