Tablesaw can get you

[willin woodworks]

Back in the day everybody I knew had a beard and a ponytail. In one week a ponytail dragged a friends head into the headstock of a lathe. He lost a big chunk of his cheek, nearly lost an eye, LOTS of stitches. A second friend was bearing down on a big hammer drill and his beard got tangled in the chuck and the bit and yanked a dime sized hunk of meat out of his chin.
That Friday night in the pub, there wasnt a ponytail to be seen and lots of short beards and shaved faces. The one guy I knew with a ponytail after that would put half a dozen rubber bands in it and drop it inside his shirt, down his back as soon as he got out of his truck and it stayed there til he got home.

[Osborne Russell]

I explained to my wife not to yell something to me, not from house nor garden, when she heard the saw going. About a year later I was cutting something so she comes up behind me and taps me on the shoulder. She said my response was logically correct but rhetorically excessive.

It's like firearms. There shall be no fooling around. There shall be uninterrupted focus. From all concerned.

I talked to a guy who showed his messed up right middle finger, you know the one. He said "I was completely calm, undistracted, early in the day, great night's sleep, etc. I watched as if in a trance as my hand atop the board guided it into the blade. I simply didn't lift my hand up. Ripped my finger right down the middle."

I don't know what would work. Making precautions habitual -- like push sticks -- is good because you don't have to think about it, but it can be a bad thing also.

[John Meachen]

There is much to be said for the UK regulations that control the professional use of saws.Then you can lose an hour or two on youtube watching amateurs doing things with power tools that were never intended to have that function and have to stop the video,or at least I do.I like to see ingenuity and I like to see nicely done projects.That beautiful inlay project is a lovely thing to see.

[AndyG]

I do remember my last thought before it happened--due to a shaky guide setup. "This is really dumb." went through my mind.

Bang on!

About thirty-five years ago, I was carving the solid balsa nose of an R/C glider with a Stanley knife. Nearly done, I thought "this isn't particularly safe, but I only need a few more cuts".

Within five seconds, I was looking at the bone of my right index finger. Then, after a moment's thought, it bled.

Today? Got no feeling in the digit.

Andy

[Canoeyawl]

holy ****ing s**t

This ^^^^

I'm going to steal that image, have it professionally printed in full color and hang it on the wall of my shop.
Jeez, I'm sorry man
thank you for sharing, and I hope your pain eases soon.

[Robbie 2]

Sorry to hear it, Sandlapper.

Another thing, don't stand behind the board as you feed. I needed a 3" wide filler board in a cedar fence so I go to ripping and it cracked. Made a wedge out of the 3 incher and shot it straight back into the garage side door like a spear. Went through the first doorskin and barely penetrated the second. I wouldn't want to try it on my abdomen.

About 10 years ago when building my boat I was using an electric plane to smooth down a board to fit.
I struck an unseen hidden nail in that board. The plane blade broke in two and the broken piece flew right across the garage, about 20 feet, and enbedded itself right through the alloy garage wall. That plane was borrowed from a Chippie mate and was given back that very afternoon. I have never used an electric plane since. The Stanley handplanes I use may be slower but they also are much safer.

[Robbie 2]

Sorry to hear it, Sandlapper.

Another thing, don't stand behind the board as you feed. I needed a 3" wide filler board in a cedar fence so I go to ripping and it cracked. Made a wedge out of the 3 incher and shot it straight back into the garage side door like a spear. Went through the first doorskin and barely penetrated the second. I wouldn't want to try it on my abdomen.

About 10 years ago when building my boat I was using an electric plane to smooth down a board to fit.
I struck an unseen hidden nail in that board. The plane blade broke in two and the broken piece flew right across the garage, about 20 feet, and enbedded itself right through the alloy garage wall. That plane was borrowed from a Chippie mate and was given back that very afternoon. I have never used an electric plane since. The Stanley handplanes I use may be slower but they also are much safer.

[Rich Jones]

Sheesh that is a gruesome injury.
I hope you recover enough motion in the forefinger to use the hand.
I still remember the lectures in 8th grade shop class about power tool safety; shirt cuffs, neck ties, etc.
On an optimistic note, I once worked with a carpenter who only had a thumb and half a fore finger on one hand.
He lost the rest of that hand in a paper mill accident. It was amazing what he could do with that injured hand.

[Gary Davis]

I showed my wife your images. She almost puked. She's in agreement that I should replace my tablesaw with a SawStop.

Hang in there and give that saw a rest.

Gary

[willin woodworks]

Somebody mentioned using Sawstops and the fact that injuries incurred were able to be patched with a band aid.
How many injuries and really how serious or non serious were they?

Ive seen Sawstops at trade shows now for years and they pop them with a hot dog. I've heard a lot of people ask why if they are so safe that the demonstrators dont stop them with their fingers; fair question in my mind.

Interesting excercise; assuming you are right handed, look at your left hand. Mine is a patchwork of scars. Two rows of stitches in my palm from two separate incidents. Index, ring and middle fingers scarred on palm and knuckle sides. Long scar up the side of the thumb. My right hand is clean as a whistle for obvious reasons, the tool is always in my right hand. Wish there was a Sawstop solution for x-acto knives, skew chisels, rabbet planes, mortice chisels.....

[Edward Pearson]

I didn't think anyone sold Saw Stop's in Europe, but now I see the Festool TKS 80 EBS has it, so it's now available in the last year or two in Europe.

Spendy, Festool stuff is, but keep it tidy and I'm sure you'd get most of your money back after 10-20 years.

It'll be interesting to see if it's licensed to more manufacturers. I can imagine EU regs might make it so, they're pretty hot on table saw safety.

[wizbang 13]

$3200
pffft, I have a single fake tooth costs double that

[TomF]

Part of what troubles me about buying a SawStop is how aggressively they've defended their patents against all comers. Like, what they've (successfully) defended isn't the specific technology they use to keep people safe, but the idea of creating a circular saw which can keep people safe. BOSCH had an alternative technology which achieved the same goal, and was successfully sued to stop selling it.

I'm all for SawStop profiting from their intellectual property, and from seeing/filling a real safety niche. But my fingers don't belong to them, and if in a free market environment someone else finds a different way to make a tablesaw safe, they've a right to come to market too. Monopolies suck.

[Garret]

Part of what troubles me about buying a SawStop is how aggressively they've defended their patents against all comers. Like, what they've (successfully) defended isn't the specific technology they use to keep people safe, but the idea of creating a circular saw which can keep people safe. BOSCH had an alternative technology which achieved the same goal, and was successfully sued to stop selling it.

I'm all for SawStop profiting from their intellectual property, and from seeing/filling a real safety niche. But my fingers don't belong to them, and if in a free market environment someone else finds a different way to make a tablesaw safe, they've a right to come to market too. Monopolies suck.

I didn't know about that & agree completely. A patent should be for an invention, not a broad concept. Hmmm... I built a car with a V8, so no one else can build a car with a V8?

[TomF]

I didn't know about that & agree completely. A patent should be for an invention, not a broad concept. Hmmm... I built a car with a V8, so no one else can build a car with a V8?

I should insert a caveat. "IT WOULD APPEAR" that what SawStop's effectively defended is the concept of making a circular saw safe, rather than their specific technology to do so.

SawStop senses when something that doesn't feel like timber is in contact with the blade, and immediately stops the blade from rotating. BOSCH's technology used sensing built into their dust extractor hood, and when fingers or etc. was sensed to come near (not in contact with) the blade, the blade was forcibly dropped below the table. It served the purpose of protecting fingers just as well, used a different sensing process, didn't destroy the saw blade, and as a bonus incorporated effective dust collection. And unless I'm mistaken, BOSCH's tech could apparently be retrofitted onto at least some existing saws by installing the dust collector/sensor and replacing the existing arbor.

I don't know how SawStop's argument was actually structured, but it clearly wasn't structured on BOSCH stealing SawStop's actual intellectual property. I followed this a bit at the time, hoping that BOSCH could come to market with something I could put into a piece of classic old iron, but nyet.

[Jim Mahan]

This ^^^^

I'm going to steal that image, have it professionally printed in full color and hang it on the wall of my shop.
Jeez, I'm sorry man
thank you for sharing, and I hope your pain eases soon.

When I was a kid in the Air Force, working as a painter in a CE squadron, we shared the carpenter shop for break time, and meetings and stuff. Big shop. Right in the middle was a nice old industrial tablesaw. It was a few feet from a large wooden post that supported the roof. On the post, facing the saw operator, was a large color photo of the saw, the same saw, with three freshly cut off fingers laying next to the blade. Better than words on a sign.

[Edward Pearson]

$3200
pffft, I have a single fake tooth costs double that

$1800 at todays dollar: pound!


The Festool is £1600 here on legs. The equivalent 10"/ 250mm blade Dewalt contractor saw usually bought by professional job site workers is £1000 here without a stand, so not so much more. Given there's usually premium for Festool stuff, the license cost Saw Stop ask might not be that great. The 'go to' amateur 10" Chinese table saw (Evolution Rage 5S - it's got a sliding table) with all the good and bad that may entail is £350 if anyone's wondering. I ended up buying an 1960's heavy Wadkin AGS 10/12 not long since.

[Canoez]

Somebody mentioned using Sawstops and the fact that injuries incurred were able to be patched with a band aid.
How many injuries and really how serious or non serious were they?

Ive seen Sawstops at trade shows now for years and they pop them with a hot dog. I've heard a lot of people ask why if they are so safe that the demonstrators dont stop them with their fingers; fair question in my mind.

Interesting excercise; assuming you are right handed, look at your left hand. Mine is a patchwork of scars. Two rows of stitches in my palm from two separate incidents. Index, ring and middle fingers scarred on palm and knuckle sides. Long scar up the side of the thumb. My right hand is clean as a whistle for obvious reasons, the tool is always in my right hand. Wish there was a Sawstop solution for x-acto knives, skew chisels, rabbet planes, mortice chisels.....

The company founder did a demo once where he touched a spinning blade to prove that point. Talk about putting your money where your mouth is:



We have two SawStop cabinet saws in a teaching woodshop. We have had about 8 trips in about 9 or 10 years. Some have been for what I consider dumb things - one due to a staple left in the end of a board. Sawstop says that shouldn't be a problem, but we found it to be the case. We've had three that we can't explain - One trip appeared to have been when the saw blade wasn't rotating - the cartridge was tripped, but the blade wasn't embedded. I was the operator for one - I was ripping cellular PVC and it tripped for no apparent reason - perhaps a static buildup? The third we think was from sweat - an operator was leaning forward to double check where the saw blade was to a pencil mark and the blade tripped. The only thing we noted was that the operator was actually dripping with sweat.

For the other four trips where injuries happened, one was an operator pushing a miter sled on the table with their thumb right on the edge where the blade ran. He ran his thumb into the blade and the Sawstop triggered. He had a nick in the thumbnail and a blade-width red line on the tip of the thumb that had just removed the skin. Soap and water and a band aid. Another was due to a kick back from a poorly supported miter cut. The piece kicked and the operator held onto it, dragging a knuckle over the top of the blade triggering the Sawstop. There was a small v-shaped cut to the knuckle 1/4" long and not very deep. Again soap and water and a band aid. The last two were both individuals trying to rip pieces too narrow without push sticks or featherboards. They both thought it too time-consuming to get or set-up those safety items. One had a nick in a fingernail - no band aid needed. The other had a small cut on the side of the index finger that needed soap and water and a band aid.

They really do work very well.

[Canoez]

$1800 at todays dollar: pound!


The Festool is £1600 here on legs. The equivalent 10"/ 250mm blade Dewalt contractor saw is £1000 here without a stand, so not so much more. Given there's usually premium for Festool stuff, the license cost Saw Stop ask might not be that great. A 10" Chinese table saw (Evolution Rage 5S) with all the good and bad that may entail is £350.

Festool bought SawStop back in 2017.

[L.A Marche]

I didn't think anyone sold Saw Stop's in Europe, but now I see the Festool TKS 80 EBS has it, so it's now available in the last year or two in Europe.

Spendy, Festool stuff is, but keep it tidy and I'm sure you'd get most of your money back after 10-20 years.

It'll be interesting to see if it's licensed to more manufacturers. I can imagine EU regs might make it so, they're pretty hot on table saw safety.

That’s a tool I wouldn’t use, spildley folding legs, narrow and short table, depth and blade tilt adjustment look to be right off of a circular saw. Your not ripping 2 inch oak or sheets of plywood in that thing, to my mind even as a SawStop equipped saw that thing is dangerous.
One quick improvement would to rotate the legs 90 degrees so they can’t fold up as you push the stock through the blade.

[jpatrick]

I didn't think anyone sold Saw Stop's in Europe, but now I see the Festool TKS 80 EBS has it, so it's now available in the last year or two in Europe.

Spendy, Festool stuff is, but keep it tidy and I'm sure you'd get most of your money back after 10-20 years.

It'll be interesting to see if it's licensed to more manufacturers. I can imagine EU regs might make it so, they're pretty hot on table saw safety.

There is no rip fence on that machine. So if it's for crosscuts only, how is it better than a sliding miter saw?

Jeff

[Canoez]

There is no rip fence on that machine. So if it's for crosscuts only, how is it better than a sliding miter saw?

Jeff

It looks like the miter gage can also be set to be a rip fence. Also looks to mount from either side.

[David G]

Bosch also brought to market a tablesaw safety system similar to Sawstop. Called REAXX... it was so similar that is was ruled a copyright infringement.

But it worked well, and was well-built apparently (I never saw one demo'd). It had the added advantage that a triggering dropped the whole arbor/blade below the table... instead of slamming a brake onto your blade. Therefore, less blade damage, but you still needed a replacement cartridge. One nice feature, as I understand it, is that the cartridges were mounted in twos. If one fired, you just rotated the mounting bracket to engage the second one. Replace the blown one at your leisure.

And they ARE available on the used market... but only as a 'contractors saw'. Not as a 'cabinet saw'.

I also saw an article recently saying that someone else has come up with a sensing technology that allows the 'stop' to be triggered just PRIOR to actual flesh contact. Not even a scratch. But it was in some industry magazing, iirc, and I don't see it handy here.

[Canoez]

Bosch also brought to market a tablesaw safety system similar to Sawstop. Called REAXX... it was so similar that is was ruled a copyright infringement.

But it worked well, and was well-built apparently (I never saw one demo'd). It had the added advantage that a triggering dropped the whole arbor/blade below the table... instead of slamming a brake onto your blade. Therefore, less blade damage, but you still needed a replacement cartridge. One nice feature, as I understand it, is that the cartridges were mounted in twos. If one fired, you just rotated the mounting bracket to engage the second one. Replace the blown one at your leisure.

And they ARE available on the used market... but only as a 'contractors saw'. Not as a 'cabinet saw'.

I also saw an article recently saying that someone else has come up with a sensing technology that allows the 'stop' to be triggered just PRIOR to actual flesh contact. Not even a scratch. But it was in some industry magazing, iirc, and I don't see it handy here.

The SawStop also drops the blade. On top of stopping the blade rotation, the blade drops down below the table. Personally, I think this is a better idea as the blade isn't continuing to cut you when the drop happens, but it may happen so fast that it doesn't matter. With the SawStop, you have to run the height adjustment all the way to the bottom to pick up the arbor assembly again when changing the blade and cartridge out.

[Jack Loudon]

I watched as if in a trance as my hand atop the board guided it into the blade. I simply didn't lift my hand up. Ripped my finger right down the middle."

This is the one that gets to me. I find in my old-ish age (73) I sometimes have to force my mind to focus, as when using the table saw. But I ride my bike a lot more than I use the table saw so notice it more there. I cross some busy streets when riding, and often need to wait for a break in the traffic. Looking alternately to the right and to the left, I have to tell myself out loud 'good' or 'no' until there is no traffic from either side and then verbally give myself the 'ok', it's safe to cross. It's as if the immediacy of the danger no longer automatically registers in my brain, so I have to do it manually. This didn't happen when I was younger, and I think that old man driving his car into a group of picnic-goers, then reversing and running over a few more.

I have to recognize (and compensate for) the change in my cognitive abilities as I age.

[David G]

The SawStop also drops the blade. On top of stopping the blade rotation, the blade drops down below the table. Personally, I think this is a better idea as the blade isn't continuing to cut you when the drop happens, but it may happen so fast that it doesn't matter. With the SawStop, you have to run the height adjustment all the way to the bottom to pick up the arbor assembly again when changing the blade and cartridge out.

Yes, as I understand it, it happens so fast that a brake would be redundant.

[Nicholas Carey]

Bosch also brought to market a tablesaw safety system similar to Sawstop. Called REAXX... it was so similar that is was ruled a copyright infringement.

Patent infringement, not copyright infringement. Copyright and Letters Patent are two very different things, similar only in that they both protect [different types] of intellectual properties.

But it worked well, and was well-built apparently (I never saw one demo'd). It had the added advantage that a triggering dropped the whole arbor/blade below the table... instead of slamming a brake onto your blade. Therefore, less blade damage, but you still needed a replacement cartridge.

The SawStop mechanism both stops the blade and drops the arbor beneath the table. Of the two, dropping the arbor is by far the slowest, so the Bosch mechanism, when triggered, took far longer to complete.

US Patent No. 7,908,950 B2, the original SawStop patent, expired 13 August, 2021. Though they do have multiple other patents (c. > 100).

Ordinarily, I'd link to the US PTO page for the patent, but the PTO seems to have "improved" their website so you can't actually link to the specific patent any more.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7908950B2/en

Said patent covers the system for detecting the dangerous condition, the blade brake, and the mechanism for blade retraction.

[Nicholas Carey]

That’s a tool I wouldn’t use, spildley folding legs, narrow and short table, depth and blade tilt adjustment look to be right off of a circular saw. Your not ripping 2 inch oak or sheets of plywood in that thing, to my mind even as a SawStop equipped saw that thing is dangerous.
One quick improvement would to rotate the legs 90 degrees so they can’t fold up as you push the stock through the blade.

There is no rip fence on that machine. So if it's for crosscuts only, how is it better than a sliding miter saw?

Jeff

That's the bare machine. Once you get the entire kit (3,000 quid excl. VAT), with the sliding table, extension table(s), rip fence, etc., it's a different machine:

https://www.festool.co.uk/products/s...bs-set-gb-240v

[Sandlapper]

To answer the question about the saw type.

It is a Delta 10" of about 20 years age in good condition, bought new and used regularly.
Fence is the Delta which I like better than the rest for its versatility.
Blade was a Woodworker 2 and reasonably sharp.
All adjustments were good and checked often.
I have not used any of the blade guard setups and don't trust them.
A variety of push sticks and feather boards are shop made and used when appropriate.
Dust collection is shop made and pretty good but not perfect.
Cuts were being made to a couple thousandths which is the limit of both saw and me.
Since I was just cleaning up a glue line, the fence was at full length.

The error was the hanging coat cuff and nothing else was really involved other than carelessness of the operator.

Future use of the tablesaw is undetermined but may be nil by me. I don't know what
I don't know.

[Priscilla]

Sandlapper I have no words that can change the past for you however your post is a salutary reminder to all us woodnuts that life can change drastically in a inattentive second.
I have had my moments with power tools actually I can stare at the scars on my body and they all are permanent tattoos with tales to tell mostly of chronic lapses in judgement and of the extraordinary skills and patience of the medical fraternity.
I grew up in an era where the smoko shed was clouded in cigarette smoke with walls adorned with pictures of naked lassies where it was not uncommon to see eye patches missing digits along with poor hearing in not too older men.
I won’t bang on about the best of the gory details I have witnessed but do wish you a speedy recovery and will approach my 12inch saw bench saw or any tool for that matter with a much renewed focus on safety.

[John Meachen]

In among the various points regarding Sawstop and patents I haven't noticed anybody mention that simply having a crown guard in place,as shown in the pics of various Sawstop variants,would make it a good deal harder to suffer injuries.How many of us regard such a thing as normal or desirable?

[David G]

In among the various points regarding Sawstop and patents I haven't noticed anybody mention that simply having a crown guard in place,as shown in the pics of various Sawstop variants,would make it a good deal harder to suffer injuries.How many of us regard such a thing as normal or desirable?

Back when I had a bunch of employees... I put these on our two everyday table saws. They worked a treat --

[Osborne Russell]

That’s a tool I wouldn’t use, spildley folding legs, narrow and short table, depth and blade tilt adjustment look to be right off of a circular saw. Your not ripping 2 inch oak or sheets of plywood in that thing . . .

In my understanding, because the axis of the motor shaft is fixed to the table, any movement in the table, perhaps even a strong vibration in difficult wood, changes the angle of the blade to the cut, which is asking for kick back.

I wouldn't use the base on that saw for a card table.

[Osborne Russell]

This is the one that gets to me. I find in my old-ish age (73) I sometimes have to force my mind to focus, as when using the table saw. But I ride my bike a lot more than I use the table saw so notice it more there. I cross some busy streets when riding, and often need to wait for a break in the traffic. Looking alternately to the right and to the left, I have to tell myself out loud 'good' or 'no' until there is no traffic from either side and then verbally give myself the 'ok', it's safe to cross. It's as if the immediacy of the danger no longer automatically registers in my brain, so I have to do it manually. This didn't happen when I was younger, and I think that old man driving his car into a group of picnic-goers, then reversing and running over a few more.

I have to recognize (and compensate for) the change in my cognitive abilities as I age.

Yeah. Now and then I stop and say to myself, "What the hell are you doing? Set it up right, and do it right!" I hate to think that one of these times I'll just go right on. I try to do a kind of mini-meditation before I start. Maybe some stretching. At first it felt odd; that was years back. Get your head straight and keep it straight, or get hurt.

This guy I was talking about was in his mid-thirties.

I heard this story from an insurance adjuster. She said there was this guy who worked on a drill press with two quills, as I think they're called. Drills two holes at once. They're making suspension brackets of some kind for off-roaders, so it's a small shop. The operators have to brush the metal squirls off the table, and they're hot and sharp, so the owner tells them to wear gloves to brush them away rather than stop and reach for the shop brush. In this incident, the gloves catch, the guy's arm is yanked, he falls to the ground, holding the hand and screaming. Other guys run up and say "Wha hoppen" and one of them gets hold of the guy's hand and pulls the glove off. Blood is already running down the guy's forearm onto the other guy's hand. He goes to put the glove on the table, and the guy's two middle fingers, yanked out by the roots, as it were, fall out of the glove. One rolls off the table and plonks on the floor. Another guy, merely watching this, passes out, falls backward like a tree, striking the back of his head on a nearby table. So he's unconscious and bleeding from the back of his head. The EMT's were able to get both guys in the same amubulance.

Don't wear gloves, sheesh, even I remember that from 8th grade shop class.