Standing or Balanced or neither

[Peerie Maa]

Thanks--that all makes sense. And yet, it seems like gaff rig was much more prevalent in larger boats than lug rig.

Tom

That depends on intended use.
Scottish herring luggers topped out at 90 foot, with a dipping foresail and standing mizzen. They sailed out as fast as possible, with one or two boards. Then struck the rig to drift, before sailing back. The foresail on a 90 footer was set with the aid of a steam capstan. Reaper at 70 foot has a Dipping Lug Foresail - 1558 sq.ft. Heavy canvas, dresses with cutch on a heavy yard.
On the other hand, trawlers needed to tack back over the ground for a second drag, and so could not afford the time to dip on each tack.
Coasting schooners and ketches, often with a square topsail, had to go where the cargo was needed, so had to be handy on all points of sail in coastal waters.

[WI-Tom]

That depends on intended use.
Scottish herring luggers topped out at 90 foot, with a dipping foresail and standing mizzen. They sailed out as fast as possible, with one or two boards. Then struck the rig to drift, before sailing back. The foresail on a 90 footer was set with the aid of a steam capstan. Reaper at 70 foot has a Dipping Lug Foresail - 1558 sq.ft. Heavy canvas, dresses with cutch on a heavy yard.
On the other hand, trawlers needed to tack back over the ground for a second drag, and so could not afford the time to dip on each tack.
Coasting schooners and ketches, often with a square topsail, had to go where the cargo was needed, so had to be handy on all points of sail in coastal waters.

I was thinking of recreational sailing and yachting--before Bermudan took over, it seems like it was all gaff rig, and no lugs.

Tom

[Peerie Maa]

I was thinking of recreational sailing and yachting--before Bermudan took over, it seems like it was all gaff rig, and no lugs.

Tom

You got Edward on ignore?

Mind you, apart from the standing lugs of the Bisquines and 19c fishing craft, putting a topsail over a lug is tricky. It was done, but not by amateurs.Nimble sail plan.jpg
So gaff topsails were the only way to add area and luff length.

[WI-Tom]

You got Edward on ignore?

Never! But it seems like the exception that proves the rule. Am I wrong that gaff rig was much more common in yachts and cruising boats? Most of your examples are working craft.

Tom

[Peerie Maa]

Never! But it seems like the exception that proves the rule. Am I wrong that gaff rig was much more common in yachts and cruising boats? Most of your examples are working craft.

Tom

Gaff was definitely favoured for cruising craft, many of which were built by work boat builders to the same model. The Victorians loved to experiment, so quite a few of their Raters were lug rigged in the smaller sizes, whilst racing yachts bigger than dinghies were also gaff rigged.

[Toxophilite]

A friend of mine lent me a spool of 4mm excel vectran in black with gold fleck and said I could use what I wanted. This is a low stretch type cable with a poly 16 braid outer sheathe. I figure it will work well and happily look good in some applications on my boat as it will look a little like tarred line.
I could see it being used for part of the down haul rig, lashing blocks to spars, maybe lashing sail corners, but to me it seems a little thin for a halyard, or the downhaul control line. I know it's strong enough but it seems like it would be hard on the hands.
Anybody else use this sort of tiny line for Halyards?
I know Opti sailors use it (My friend is an ex olympic sailor who teaches and runs a fleet of Optis and FJs)

[Toxophilite]

This is the line I'm referring to above. I already used it to replace some of the lashings I have for my downhaul setup which is led aft (basically blocks lashed to the thwart knees (which I thought was better than attaching them to the 'shelf' which is screwed to the frames)
http://www.dinghyshop.com/product/MEV.html
It seems a little thin to haul up a lug rig with wooden spars. Strong enough but likely hard on the hands. I thought I might use it for sail corner lashings and maybe the loop on the yardrd that hooks to my mast traveller, just to reduce the overall stretch in the halyard/downhaul setup. It's a stiffish line (you can bend it and it will retain it's shape.)

[Woxbox]

This is the line I'm referring to above. I already used it to replace some of the lashings I have for my downhaul setup which is led aft (basically blocks lashed to the thwart knees (which I thought was better than attaching them to the 'shelf' which is screwed to the frames)
http://www.dinghyshop.com/product/MEV.html
It seems a little thin to haul up a lug rig with wooden spars. Strong enough but likely hard on the hands. I thought I might use it for sail corner lashings and maybe the loop on the yardrd that hooks to my mast traveller, just to reduce the overall stretch in the halyard/downhaul setup. It's a stiffish line (you can bend it and it will retain it's shape.)

My rule of thumb (or hand, in this case) is 1/4" or 6mm is the smallest line that's reasonable to work with by hand, i.e. halyards and sheets. And for sheets, I prefer a size larger since it will be gripped for extended periods. So when you go to vectran or dyneema in small boats, when sized for comfort the line is strong enough to lift the boat and crew right off the water.

[Toxophilite]

It is hilariously strong. I will likely be using regular yacht braid for the halyard and the main sheet but replacing all the the attachment lashings with the vectran.

[Toxophilite]

Still trying to squeeze a little better windward performance out of my boat. If I do well I think I'm at best managing 120 degrees, or 60 degrees to either side

I was just reading something Ross Lilystone wrote. He likes to have a very light (1/8") line coming from the top of the yard and going to the weather side of the stern very little tension on it, basically to keep the top of the yard from rotating too much. A light vang.
From the description is sounds like it's for controlling sail twist.
Downwind it's supposed to help prevent the death roll

http://rosslillistonewoodenboat.blogspot.com/2014/

Not that I need more lines on my boat this seems like an easy one to try.
Anyone else here try this?

[Woxbox]

If the sail is built right and everything else is in order, you shouldn't need such a thing. You should be able to do much better than 120 degree tacks. It sounds like the sail just isn't flattened out enough when set, or it's all stretched out and baggy and in need of surgery.

[WI-Tom]

Still trying to squeeze a little better windward performance out of my boat. If I do well I think I'm at best managing 120 degrees, or 60 degrees to either side

I very much doubt you need a line like that to get around 50 degrees easily. I forget how the foils (board and rudder) are in your boat? Maybe it's a foil issue?

How much tension is on your downhaul?

Or, maybe you are underestimating your performance? This is one of those rare cases where a GPS might be handy to check tacking angles.

Tom

[stromborg]

Still trying to squeeze a little better windward performance out of my boat.

Aren't we all?

Can you point better without the jib? I have been chasing after better performance on my boat too and last season realized what I needed was more luff tension. The shape of the jib was too full and I couldn't trim it in enough when going upwind. I have a stayed mast, replacing the lashings with turnbuckles, adding whisker stays to the bowsprit and switching from the very cool W/M bronze roller furler to hanking the jib to the forestay (the jib was originally designed to use hanks, the furler was my not-so-successful idea) have all helped get her closer to where I think she should be. IIRC the jib you are using is one you had kicking around, I wonder if there is something in the cut that makes it unhappy with how you have it rigged? Could it be the luff angle is wrong for how the sail is shaped? Maybe the sheet leads need to be adjusted?

The jib leads the way, once you get that dialed in the main will follow.

That vang off the the peak is intriguing, I feel like I've seen something similar but it was lead to the top of a mizzen mast. Pretty cheap experiment especially since you have that spool of line.

One more thing...I was having trouble with my peak halyard sagging over time and ended up splicing dyneema to a length of easier to handle 3-strand. The geometry just happened to work out that the splice stops short of the block and about 2' above the cleat I use to tie off the halyard. The wee bit of stretch I might get from the remaining bit of 3-strand is negligible.

[WI-Tom]

Still trying to squeeze a little better windward performance out of my boat.

Another thought--true, but probably not what you're after:

The best windward performance you can get will probably be under oars.

Tom

[auscruisertom]

Very informative thanks guys.

[Toxophilite]

Damn , why didn't I think of that ???

I think Ross Liliistone was suggesting the yard vang idea came from Chinese Junk rigs...I could be wrong, I would have to reread the article.
It would be an easy thing to try.
It could be my goofily recut jibs &^$&^%ing me up. I'll try it all the next windy non rainy day we get and see.
Annoyingly I have been using a GPS to get my numbers.
I usually determine my windward position by the feel of the wind on the boat(and tiller) and watching the luffs of my sails.

Another thought--true, but probably not what you're after:

The best windward performance you can get will probably be under oars.

Tom

[MakoShark]

Really cool thread!

On the question about the prevalence of gaff rigs; I think a lot of the disdain for "working rigs" came from the yachts "clubs" and their power to project an image. I've been reading Chappelle, Parker, and several other sailing historians, as well as having read lots of Bolger and other proponents of more traditional rigs. Chappelle was especially interesting in this area. I rather suspect there was more use of luggers, spritsails, etc, than we might imagine, but their users probably didn't think it worth writing about!

A quick question; the thread is packed with great info on lug sail performance (for the Pelican's lug), but I can't help but wonder; doesn't all the extra rigging defeat the purpose of the lug rig? You have simplicity, low expense, and quick setup, but once you've added all the extras, it seems like you'd be better off with a Bermuda. Technically speaking, once you've reached a similar level of rigging, is there a benefit to lug over Bermudas or gaffers? Maybe the lower CE and greater sail area for a given mast height?
Now, the question of how to wring every last bit of performance out of a lug rig is a fascinating question, but as a lover of the simpler rigs for their simplicity, it occurs to me to wonder. It doesn't help Toxophilite much, of course, but I don't I could add anything to wealth of advice he already got!

[Woxbox]

Maybe the lower CE and greater sail area for a given mast height?

I think this is key to understanding the appeal. These traditional rigs tend to be stout and relatively low-stressed structures. The modern Bermuda rig, by comparison, is a very highly stressed structure. The traditional rigs tend to be easier to handle, too -- especially when there's no jib to tack. And when well set up, the difference in performance is not great. In fact, if you're not racing, I don't see the difference worth mentioning.

[Toxophilite]

You forgot to mention the ability to strike the whole rig down into the boat if needed, especially with a boat in the 12' range that is also a rowboat.
I'm not trying to complicate my rig nor trying to make it perform to windward like Bermuda rigged racing boat. Mostly just learn more about it. So far it's still as simple as it was when I bought it (though it's setup better hopefully.)

The recent thing I saw looks simple and easy to try. for fun. It's a nice day, the temperature is just above freezing...maybe I'll head out and try it all out. Looked up how to do the waypoint thing on the GPS for testing windward performance too. (wind is in km/hr)
Screen Shot 2022-12-04 at 9.33.20 AM.jpg

Really cool thread!

On the question about the prevalence of gaff rigs; I think a lot of the disdain for "working rigs" came from the yachts "clubs" and their power to project an image. I've been reading Chappelle, Parker, and several other sailing historians, as well as having read lots of Bolger and other proponents of more traditional rigs. Chappelle was especially interesting in this area. I rather suspect there was more use of luggers, spritsails, etc, than we might imagine, but their users probably didn't think it worth writing about!

A quick question; the thread is packed with great info on lug sail performance (for the Pelican's lug), but I can't help but wonder; doesn't all the extra rigging defeat the purpose of the lug rig? You have simplicity, low expense, and quick setup, but once you've added all the extras, it seems like you'd be better off with a Bermuda. Technically speaking, once you've reached a similar level of rigging, is there a benefit to lug over Bermudas or gaffers? Maybe the lower CE and greater sail area for a given mast height?
Now, the question of how to wring every last bit of performance out of a lug rig is a fascinating question, but as a lover of the simpler rigs for their simplicity, it occurs to me to wonder. It doesn't help Toxophilite much, of course, but I don't I could add anything to wealth of advice he already got!

[John Meachen]

Are you using a compass to determine the angle between tacks?It takes the guesswork out of the situation.The other thing is to use a waypoint with a suitable GPS and calculate VMG.A waterproof phone might well do it all.I have sailed with a friend who kept his Iphone in a watertight box and used his Apple watch to extract the information.

I doubt that many of us could make the perfect first guess at setting up a rig with respect to jib sheet leads and rig rake.It takes a bit of evolution to get there and the foils in the water are as significant as the sails in the breeze.It may seem obvious,but have you looked at the centreboard in it's fully lowered configuration?It wouldn't be the first to have the foiled section stop a bit lower than the keel line and a blunt rectangular leading edge doing nothing good for the windward performance.

[Woxbox]

It takes a bit of evolution to get there and the foils in the water are as significant as the sails in the breeze.It may seem obvious,but have you looked at the centreboard in it's fully lowered configuration?It wouldn't be the first to have the foiled section stop a bit lower than the keel line and a blunt rectangular leading edge doing nothing good for the windward performance.

John, All true enough. But we're talking no better than 60 degrees on the wind here. The 17th Century replica square rigger, no jibs or stay sails on her, that I used to crew on could do that. And my current boat, an 18' "Autumn Leaves" canoe yawl, has dead flat bilgeboards -- short and stubby at that -- and in agreeable conditions can knock of 90 degree tacks on the GPS tracker all day long.

So yes, first thing is to get good data. Download the free trial version of Navionics on your cell phone, flip it on next time you go sailing, and get some accurate data. If it really is 120 degree tacks to windward, there's something way more than board shape that needs attention. And in my experience, it's the sail shape and/or trim that's the problem.

[Toxophilite]

I appreciate anyone giving this thought. i hope my evaluation isn't a result of poor data.

Dead calm most of the day. I had to retrieve a hat lost on the shore a couple of nautical miles away away so I discovered this new way to go to windward. 3 knots average at 75% power, Not bad.... in a dead calm. Unfortunately it weighs about 29 lbs and the battery weighs 22lbs. At least it can be spread out a little.

My sail should be in good condition, having been used very little from what I can tell. However it was made by someone who wasn't really lug sail savy. It has a roped foot and head and had no luff reenforcement. I reenforced the luff and added reef points. I have been using it orientated as a standing lug. I have a 6-1 on the downhaul so I can get it plenty tight. The mast traveller and the way the downhaul is rigged keep the spars close to the mast on both tacks.
This sail always looks quite flat to me . Not really FLAT but compared to my loose footed Shellback sail it looks flatter.

My foils are okay, I didn't make them, Whoever did made them an even 1.5-2" taper around the entire edge rather than rounder on the front edge with a longer tapered narrow back edge ala a proper foil. They are otherwise smooth and nicely shaped.

Today I was going to set up a waypoint directly to windward and then tack towards it with my GPS unit tracking my progress. I have an older Garmin handheld unit, it's fine and should do the trick.
What I was doing before was just noting the compass heading on a tack (in good wind) and then when I was properly on the other tack i would not the number and minus one from the other. I did this on a few outings. I have to try it with shorter tacks though as tacking back and forth across a .5-1 km wide fjord one tends to have different wind direction near the edges.

For fun today I was going to do the above
-I was also going to try the sail loose fitted
-and also rig it up as a balanced lug.
(Gartside calls it a standing lug but it looks like a balanced lug)
-I was going to try adjusting with my outhauls a little

I'll have to wait for some wind though.
IMG_4295.jpg

[Hugh MacD]

Following with interest and learning a ton! I have a standing lug on my Shearwater, but the boat hasn't been wet for two years now. It was built without the CB so I'm thinking of building up some leeboards for it.

[stromborg]

Just having a couple of thoughts...

My Deer Isle Koster had the option for two rigs, because I am who I am I built both the balanced lug and standing lug sloop version. Same mast placement, just different sails yards and booms. The sails were quite different shapes, and using them was a lot more than simply changing the tack/luff/mast orientation. The balanced lug was quite fussy about where the yard and boom intersected with the mast, too far forward or aft would really mess with how she sailed. I played with it a lot before getting it right and then messed things up by playing around with it again, take notes about each change so you can go back.

Your sail has been questionable from the get-go, it might be worth starting fresh with the right one instead of trying to find work-arounds for the one you've got.

[John Meachen]

John, All true enough. But we're talking no better than 60 degrees on the wind here. The 17th Century replica square rigger, no jibs or stay sails on her, that I used to crew on could do that. And my current boat, an 18' "Autumn Leaves" canoe yawl, has dead flat bilgeboards -- short and stubby at that -- and in agreeable conditions can knock of 90 degree tacks on the GPS tracker all day long.

So yes, first thing is to get good data. Download the free trial version of Navionics on your cell phone, flip it on next time you go sailing, and get some accurate data. If it really is 120 degree tacks to windward, there's something way more than board shape that needs attention. And in my experience, it's the sail shape and/or trim that's the problem.

We are in agreement,but there may be one factor we haven't taken into account-tides.An adverse tide will make a nonsense of attempts to analyse tacking angles.i also wonder if adding wool tufts tot he sail(s) might be useful.It is after all,the lee side of the sail that does most to get us upwind if the flow remains attached.

[Toxophilite]

Not sure if these help (regarding the sail shape/set etc.) These are screenshots from video that I took sailing last week. To windward in about 8 knots of wind, according to my hand held anemometer. Looks like the sail is hinging at the battens a bit but it's hard to tell. To my relatively unexperienced eye the draft of the sail looks a little far aft. The last picture is from a few days after in a lighter breeze(didn't measure it)

[John Meachen]

I've spent very little tie with lugsails,but I feel quite sure that the lacing on the yard needs tightening a bit,so the creases disappear.The foot might also benefit from a bit of tension.I don't understand the function of the light line from the boom to the leech and it may be limiting the ease with which the flow exits the sail.Does the jib have tufts too?It might be worth a bit of experimenting with a barber hauler.

[Toxophilite]

The yard has robands though I might switch back to lacing. Regardless I'll snug it up a little as I see what you mean. The line you're seeing from the leech to the boom is the completely redundant leech line which the misguided sailmaker put in. It is just hanging there loose but looks like it's attached to the boom(This all happened long before I bought the boat)

A new main sail might be in the offing one day, however I am on a tight budget, being between jobs. Even a Sailrite kit would be about 40% of my initlal investment in the boat (which was a good deal and why I could afford a traditionally built wooden boat)

[Matt young]

I've spent very little tie with lugsails,but I feel quite sure that the lacing on the yard needs tightening a bit,so the creases disappear.The foot might also benefit from a bit of tension.I don't understand the function of the light line from the boom to the leech and it may be limiting the ease with which the flow exits the sail.Does the jib have tufts too?It might be worth a bit of experimenting with a barber hauler.

They look too tight to me, I like lacing as it can evenly distribute the tension when set right.

[Todd Bradshaw]

The top 50% or better of your sail has way too much draft. If we ignore the roach (which isn't really doing much for progress to weather) and draw a line from clew to peak (leech reference line) you can see what a deep "bag" has been created up there between the leech reference line and the yard. The angle of the photo isn't such that we could accurately project horizontal chords on the sail, but my eye tells me that they would be really deep. Then when we get down toward the level of your second reef, the sail's draft is looking better (though it is still awfully deep up near the luff).

Any idea how much round was cut into the head, as excessive round can be a problem and create excessive draft. A lugsail's head is always going to have a combination of one amount of round added for draft creation (usually a pretty small amount) and what is usually more round (sometimes a lot more) added to compensate for yard bend. These amounts are added to the straight-line head reference line to arrive at the final amount of round added - sort of.... in some cases, we don't add the full potential amount for yard bend because in lighter winds it makes the sail way too drafty and we have to seek an all-round decent shape. Without being able to actually see the sail or watch it in use, it is hard to be much more specific, but what we are looking at in the photos is not much of a formula for success. Unattached and lying flat on the floor, I would guestimate that we should be seeing maybe 3" of round for the head edge on a sail that size.

As for the hinging battens, standard practice to prevent that is to make leech battens three times in length the amount of the local roach where they are placed. If they are pretty close to being long enough, then the best bet is to soften their forward ends - sometimes quite a bit for upper battens.

[MakoShark]

I don't know if it's down to my eye being unused to seeing battens in lug sails, or something else, but that sail looks odd to me. (very nice boat, tho! I'm jealous!)

I agree with @Todd Bradshaw, with considerably less authority. Seems to me that sail shape might be causing a good bit of the upwind performance issues. More knowledgeable heads than mine may correct me, but to my understanding, close-hauled sailing is less about being pushed and more about aerodynamic lift. I'd almost spitball that the extra material up high is spoiling your sail shape, as well as possibly putting more pressure towards the masthead than there should be. (last part is pure speculation)

Looking at the photos on a good monitor, it almost looks like something is up with the way the sail meets the yard? Is it possible that the sail was cut for a different type of setup and was then modified?

[Toxophilite]

Maybe this will be more helpful. Please excuse the &^%&^ camera adjusting. The annoying thing about having a camera is that you end up fussing with it and your sailing becomes more about filming which is irritating. i recommend turning the sound off as the adjusting sound is pretty annoying.

Regarding possible round in the top of the sail. I wonder if the unnecessary roping of the head of the sail has something to do with that. The line could shrink resulting in a somewhat similar result. Maybe I need to tighten my yard outhaul?

https://youtu.be/6GhP6cJz2PM

[Todd Bradshaw]

Yes. None of those little wrinkles along the yard should be there. At Just about any altitude on the sail you should be sailing upwind with a typical draft of somewhere around one foot of draft for every ten feet of chord. In the level around the second batten down from the top you probably have five or six times that amount. That's just going to kill any chance of sailing efficiently upwind. The airflow providing lift to weather can't stay attached over such a deep curve. I think it's time to start believing that this sail truly is an abomination. Use it as long as you have to, but it is likely never going to do much for the boat.

[stromborg]

Can you get the dimensions from Paul Gartside? Sailrite could probably send you a kit for <$300.00 US. I've built a bunch from them and can't complain.

[Toxophilite]

Thanks! I like the word abomination! Seriously I do!

I like Sailrite. I built one of their kits for my Shellback, fun, relatively easy, and works a treat
I do have the sail plan and did get a quote from Sailrite.

It's about $500 Can shipped from Sailrite. The exchange rate and shipping add a lot. At the time, generally always being on a budget and having just spent a bunch on paint etc. even buying a kit wasn't in the cards. However whilst currenty looking for tolerable gainful employment I might sell a surplus guitar to fund a sail and some tent canvas and get sewing.

Too bad cream sail cloth is as expensive as tanbark.(easily twice as much as white) It's a nice look on this boat. I like white too though.

Now if only someone would pay me for sailing a little boat....