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Thread: Standing or Balanced or neither

  1. #1
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    Default Standing or Balanced or neither

    I've always been confused by the fact that the write up for the Gartside 130 says that he added a standing lug , yet the pictures to me look more like a balanced lug at least in regard to the way the mast is parallel to the luff of the sail. Rather than have the Luff tilted forward.

    Is this because the sail is so high peaked and has battens?
    12clinker130.jpg
    His attachment point for the downhaul would seem to be a foot back from the forward end of the boom(not in this picture. I think I had it there but have since moved it to the end of the boom just by the tack of the sail. I think the main sets better.

    Any opinions or insights? I've been using it like a standing lug

    This is a new design that I would expect to have wide appeal. It is similar in model and construction detail to #127, but two extra feet make it a lot more boat. A dagger board and standing lugsail add to the versatility and enjoyment. Swallows and Amazons fans will know what it is all about.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    In general, the definition of a standing lug states that the tack corner is "at the mast", though this can be either ahead of or behind the mast. The drawing above would usually be classified as a balanced lug - luff parallel to the mast, tack corner ahead of the mast and a boom in use. It certainly would not be the first time that boat designers have gotten the terminology wrong when it comes to sail specifics, though the lines between balanced and standing lugs tend to be kind of blurry.

    As to the battened roach, which really can't add anything in terms of propulsion until you are sailing off the wind, it is usually questionable whether or not it adds enough to the program to be worth the trouble of dealing with batten pockets, which tend to be the number one need for sail repairs.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    This is a standing lug, but with an atypical boom


    This drawing is for a balanced lug arrangement


    You pays your money and takes your choice.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Todd,

    I wonder if I might hijack this thread a bit to ask if you've ever seen or sailed with a downhaul rigged on the lug yard? It's very common to find them rigged on SF Bay Pelicans even though they don't appear in the original plans. I usually see Pelicans with a 1:1 purchase on the boom downhaul and anywhere from 2:1 to 6:1 purchase on the yard downhaul. Although I don't particularly like the way the sails set, the arrangement is popular enough with racers that I second-guess myself. What are your thoughts? Silly or smart?

    Pelican-San-Francisco-Bay-Sail-Data_1.jpg

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Are the two types of sails cut the same way? Could one rig a boat either way?

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    Are the two types of sails cut the same way? Could one rig a boat either way?
    The sail geometry will be different for the two rigs.
    Clinton B. Chase
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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    This is a standing lug, but with an atypical boom


    This drawing is for a balanced lug arrangement


    You pays your money and takes your choice.

    The difference between the two would seem to be primarily the downhaul attachment.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Marty, I have never seen a downhaul rigged on the yard (or seen a possible need for one) so I don't know what they are up to with that. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that it might benefit. Lug geometry is pretty simple. The only lines I have seen attached to yards or gaffs were gaff vangs, coming down from the gaff's peak end and allowing the gaff to be pulled slightly more to weather, reducing upper sail twist for a little more pointing angle. The yard is positioned to be seriously tail-heavy, and you should be able to feel this when first raising the sail, even on a small sail. To this we add mainsheet tension while sailing and this all pulls against the tack or boom downhaul, which is pulling in the opposite direction. This scenario keeps the sail in position, so that the yard and foot/boom do not droop when tacking and more importantly, it creates proper luff tension. This is critical as the luff is all alone out in space, rather than being attached directly to the mast. Without sufficient (and pretty solid) luff tension the luff would wobble back and forth, side to side as you sail, while it tries to find a stable position.

    I'm not a fan of adding luff round to a lugsail's luff. It is a standard way to create sail draft for sails attached to a mast along the luff, but its effect can be ineffective and not very stable on a luff flying free. I prefer to cut the lug luffs either dead straight for short-ish ones or slightly hollow for longer ones, so that they will retain maximum luff tension. They also get pretty heavily reinforced to maintain their shape as the sail ages. Draft is then generated by other means, mainly by broadseaming.

    There is not going to be a major difference in the way the standing and balanced lugs are cut and shaped, but the perimeter shape will usually be a bit different. This may prevent them working in both configurations. For a balanced lug used as a standing lug, the aft end of the boom may end up awfully high and a standing lug used balanced may end up drooping awfully far into the cockpit at its aft end. If the sails have reef lines, that can also get pretty strange to deal with if you try to rig the sails the other way. On standing lugs in particular, it may really throw off the CE/CLP equation and helm balance when reefed. Since there are so many possible shapes and styles of lugsails these days, folks pretty much seem to call them standing or balanced without much thought to their actual configuration, though the king of mislabeled sails remains the sliding gunter, which is wrong about 90% of the time.

    assorted-lugsails.jpg

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    ^ This.
    The only reason for a yard downhill is to stop it from jamming when you are dropping it. The Shetland Sixareens needed to drop the sail quickly if the boat states surfing down a wave, so the halyard was a loop, the hauling part being tied off at the parrel, so the crew could muzzle the sail quickly, and rehoist when the boat had slowed.For a standing or balance lug, you just hand the luff.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    a downhaul rigged on the lug yard? It's very common to find them rigged on SF Bay Pelicans even though they don't appear in the original plans.
    I had that sail and I'll tell ya why you see them or other extra lines on so many Pelicans. It's because the sail is such an oddball shape that it's almost impossible to get it to set right with out downhauls or other extra lines strategically placed. The huge roach adds to the problem as it tends to hinge badly - something the lines help cure. I ended up recutting the sail myself.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Looking at the plan, the rule of thumb is that the length of a leech batten needs to be about three times the local amount of leech roach. That's what keeps the sail from hinging at the forward end of the battens, which is really annoying. The battens shown on the plan are clearly too short to do the job well. Sometimes I think most boat designers should not be drawing the sailplans for their boats. There are too many little details that they either are not aware of or just don't keep track of.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither



    The Solent Scow dinghies pull the boom back to move the center of effort for the mainsail back when they choose to add a small jib when racing two up. It kinda works for us and solo or two up racing is possible.

    Seperately you'll have to decide how the helm balance is with your standard balanced lug sail, look at the mast rake, how the sail is performing to judge if the sail's up to scratch. At 12ft solo with a skinny sail and oar boat, personally I wouldn't want the frig of a jib.


    If it was my boat and I wanted to whip it into shape...sailing with the balanced lug:-

    1. I'd junk all the three stand. That's great for mooring ropes but not running rigging. Too much stretch.

    2. I'd rig that boom downhaul with at least 6:1 (8:1 if it was stayed) with ball bearing Harken blocks. Either a 4mm Marlow Excel Racing equivalent or go to just a spliced dyneema.

    3. Dyneema main halyard. Try to get the halyard and down haul attachments off the boat and onto the mast to isolate compression off the boat and put the mast stick into compression only. Wood loves that. Being unstayed the rig is always going to be harder to get tension in it.

    4. You need a metal eye fitting positioned vertically above the luff on the yard, and that needs dyneema line in through the sail cringle at the front of the yard. Some people continue the main halyard down, around the mast and end it on this eye strap so that the luff is being pulled taught top and bottom and the middle man (the bendy yard) is relieved of duty. What you are trying to do, is put high levels of tension down the luff by pulling on the downhaul into the front 1/3 of the sail. Think bermudan forestay tension. Wang it on tight. American's sail with insufficient downhual tension invariably. Make it so that the luff is taught. Be merciless. You should be able to ping it or play a sound.

    5. You need to lower the mainsail sail overally down the mast. You dont want it hitting your head easily, but the higher center of effort is creating a higher center of effort and it will roll more in gusts. Lower is better especially on a skinny boat, as far as you can tolerate.

    6. You need to rig a kicker/ vang to the boom. Americans universally miss this off their balanced lugs, but it should have one to control sail twist. Your mainsheet is there to pull the sail in and out. The kicker pulls the boom down/ stops it lifting and avoid excessive leach twist. You always get more than a bermudan leech twist because of the yard weight flopping to leeward. In the UK, where the balanced lug was born, we sail with kickers universally and wouldn't put to sea without it well on. Don't believe the 'self vanging' spiel. You will have excessive twist, a poorly performing sail and you'll stretch that luff out of shape when the boom flicks up. Mainsheet and kicker loads can pull the mast aft when its an unstayed rig. A bending spar becomes shorter eye to eye and the sail becomes more bellowed, just when you want flat. This is an unavoidable compromise with unstayed rigs, but do what you can to help matters.

    7. Adjust the boom outhaul and yard outhaul to get the sail set. This will takes some frigging one afternoon. But not too flat. Or wrinkly. Just wrinkling so they blow out in any wind is about right. Don't forget that yard outhaul. Thats setting tension in top triangle. Like the luff you want tension there too.

    8. While not letting it get overly complex (mainsheet travellers), consider a triangle mainsheet bridle attached to the main thwart and running the mainsheet to the boom from this. It cuts down rope in and out and gives a better more lateral pull to the boom.

    9. Stand back and look at yard bend and boom bend. Are the spars to specification. Are they stiff enough. Basically you dont want any bend at all. But you dont want heavy spars, so a little bend is the compromise. You might want a little bend in the yard tip, but on a 12ft'er you should be able to sit it out with a large proportion of rail weight and even that is less necessary unless you're in higher winds. She's a sail and oar so likely narrower waterline, if she feels 'a bit tippy' then floppy yard tip is good.

    10. Fix tell tales on the sails leach and about 25% back from the luff to assess laminar flow when sailing and help you adjust your rig. The leeward indicators matter mostest. You want laminar flow especially to leeward where the negative pressure is generating. Adjust your ainsheet then kicker so all are flying. Look at the sail belly, shouldn;t be too flat or too curved, otherwise adjust your outhauls.

    There are marginal gains, all along the pathway which summate. Eventually the investment in good line, blocks, time and frigging and you'll get it running perfect and it pays off with faster boat speed and higher pointing.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 10-11-2022 at 06:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    As always, I love to read your posts, Edward. Thanks so much for sharing what you know! I am woefully under-educated about sail trim, etc., and really appreciate all this.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Hey this is all great stuff thanks.I appreciate the time spent and I will be using many of the suggestions, I have some questions if I may (and if you have the time)see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post


    The Solent Scow dinghies pull the boom back to move the center of effort for the mainsail back when they choose to add a small jib when racing two up. It kinda works for us and solo or two up racing is possible.

    Seperately you'll have to decide how the helm balance is with your standard balanced lug sail, look at the mast rake, how the sail is performing to judge if the sail's up to scratch. At 12ft solo with a skinny sail and oar boat, personally I wouldn't want the frig of a jib

    The boat balances quite nicely with the jib, (even the big one pictured) with adequate weather helm. I think this is a result of the mast rake and the short sprit. I don't find the jib too much effort but the simplicity of the designed rig certainly is more streamlined.b This boat has a 5' beam not super beamy but not super narrow either.

    If it was my boat and I wanted to whip it into shape...sailing with the balanced lug:-

    You think this should be a balanced lug as drawn rather than a standing as labelled right? Are any of the tweaks below primarily for a balanced lug?

    1. I'd junk all the three stand. That's great for mooring ropes but not running rigging. Too much stretch.

    I agree, and I was discovering that. I might ask my circus brother for dyneema for Halyards, downhauls etc. or at least switch to double braid everywhere. The downhaulset up is already yacht braid.

    2. I'd rig that boom downhaul with at least 6:1 (8:1 if it was stayed) with ball bearing Harken blocks. Either a 4mm Marlow Excel Racing equivalent or go to just a spliced dyneema
    I currently have a 3 -1 dinghy vanghy system led aft for convenience, that pulls on a double whip(line from eyebolt going through block lashed to boom and then through another block on the eyebolt and led aft to the 3-1. This needs some "frigging'

    3. Dyneema main halyard. Try to get the halyard and down haul attachments off the boat and onto the mast to isolate compression off the boat and put the mast stick into compression only. Wood loves that. Being unstayed the rig is always going to be harder to get tension in it.

    Going to hunt down some dyneema. Not sure I'll move the attachments onto the mast as I'm a sucker for belaying pins... but I understand the rationale and agree with it. I think my mast might be a little bendy up top already grr.

    4. You need a metal eye fitting positioned vertically above the luff on the yard, and that needs dyneema line in through the sail cringle at the front of the yard. Some people continue the main halyard down, around the mast and end it on this eye strap so that the luff is being pulled taught top and bottom and the middle man (the bendy yard) is relieved of duty. What you are trying to do, is put high levels of tension down the luff by pulling on the downhaul into the front 1/3 of the sail. Think bermudan forestay tension. Wang it on tight. American's sail with insufficient downhual tension invariably. Make it so that the luff is taught. Be merciless. You should be able to ping it or play a sound.

    This I don't quite understand. Is there a diagram available? You're suggesting a metal eye on the top of the yard above the luff and have a dyeema line . Where does the dyeema line end up?

    5. You need to lower the mainsail sail overally down the mast. You dont want it hitting your head easily, but the higher center of effort is creating a higher center of effort and it will roll more in gusts. Lower is better especially on a skinny boat, as far as you can tolerate.

    I had it up high in this picture. I have to make a mark somewhere as the previous owner added 2' to the mast for more 'headroom' I've been using the extra length, mostly in light airs, but not always up this high. Also due to the stretchy 3 strand, It ends up being pulled down by the downhaul anyway. However I realize that situation isn't ideal . I've contemplated knocking a foot of the top of the mast. On my previous boat it couldn't be hauled too high, It had one height.

    6. You need to rig a kicker/ vang to the boom. Americans universally miss this off their balanced lugs, but it should have one to control sail twist. Your mainsheet is there to pull the sail in and out. The kicker pulls the boom down/ stops it lifting and avoid excessive leach twist. You always get more than a bermudan leech twist because of the yard weight flopping to leeward. In the UK, where the balanced lug was born, we sail with kickers universally and wouldn't put to sea without it well on. Don't believe the 'self vanging' spiel. You will have excessive twist, a poorly performing sail and you'll stretch that luff out of shape when the boom flicks up. Mainsheet and kicker loads can pull the mast aft when its an unstayed rig. A bending spar becomes shorter eye to eye and the sail becomes more bellowed, just when you want flat. This is an unavoidable compromise with unstayed rigs, but do what you can to help matters.

    I'm not American! I have a dinghy vang around somehwere. I'll dig it out and give it a try.

    7. Adjust the boom outhaul and yard outhaul to get the sail set. This will takes some frigging one afternoon. But not too flat. Or wrinkly. Just wrinkling so they blow out in any wind is about right. Don't forget that yard outhaul. Thats setting tension in top triangle. Like the luff you want tension there too.

    Will do, I have the boom outhaul adjustable but not the yard outhaul. I like frigging in the afternoon!

    8. While not letting it get overly complex (mainsheet travellers), consider a triangle mainsheet bridle attached to the main thwart and running the mainsheet to the boom from this. It cuts down rope in and out and gives a better more lateral pull to the boom.

    I don't quite understand this. There's currently a lowish(short) rope bridle on the main sheet main thwart (probably about 3'long) which the 3-1 purchase 'travels' on . Did you mean a higher (longer )'bridle'
    Or a completely different setup?


    9. Stand back and look at yard bend and boom bend. Are the spars to specification. Are they stiff enough. Basically you dont want any bend at all. But you dont want heavy spars, so a little bend is the compromise. You might want a little bend in the yard tip, but on a 12ft'er you should be able to sit it out with a large proportion of rail weight and even that is less necessary unless you're in higher winds. She's a sail and oar so likely narrower waterline, if she feels 'a bit tippy' then floppy yard tip is good.

    I was wondering about the spars a while back so I measured them compared to the plans. Almost bang on though the boom might be a little fatter at both ends. I was wondering about their weight but I don't have a comparison. They seem quite stiff

    10. Fix tell tales on the sails leach and about 25% back from the luff to assess laminar flow when sailing and help you adjust your rig. The leeward indicators matter mostest. You want laminar flow especially to leeward where the negative pressure is generating. Adjust your ainsheet then kicker so all are flying. Look at the sail belly, shouldn;t be too flat or too curved, otherwise adjust your outhauls.
    I think there's some on he actual leach (trailing behind the sail) but nothing mid sail.

    There are marginal gains, all along the pathway which summate. Eventually the investment in good line, blocks, time and frigging and you'll get it running perfect and it pays off with faster boat speed and higher pointing.
    '
    When you say 'frigging' do you mean 'figuring'? I always feel it's worthwhile to invest time in frigging! ! I like figuring too!

    Thanks again, there's a wealth of information here
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-12-2022 at 12:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I had that sail and I'll tell ya why you see them or other extra lines on so many Pelicans. It's because the sail is such an oddball shape that it's almost impossible to get it to set right with out downhauls or other extra lines strategically placed. The huge roach adds to the problem as it tends to hinge badly - something the lines help cure. I ended up recutting the sail myself.
    What modifications did you make? I've got three and I've never liked how the sails set, but I'm not sure what to do. Most irritating is the persistent clew-throat crease; the books say to crank on the downhaul but this doesn't seem to solve it.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    with regard to item #4, I believe Edward is referring to something like this (please chime in if I have this wrong, Edward):
    278374F1-6961-4575-B894-E1B5F0AE8B63.jpg

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxophilite View Post
    Hey this is all great stuff thanks.I appreciate the time spent and I will be using many of the suggestions, I have some questions if I may (and if you have the time)see below.


    '
    When you say 'frigging' do you mean 'figuring'? I always feel it's worthwhile to invest time in frigging! ! I like figuring too!

    Thanks again, there's a wealth of information here
    "Frigging in the rigging" has a very specific meaning, not an acceptable topic for a family forum. It's a sailor thing...

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty J View Post
    What modifications did you make? I've got three and I've never liked how the sails set, but I'm not sure what to do. Most irritating is the persistent clew-throat crease; the books say to crank on the downhaul but this doesn't seem to solve it.
    A peak downhaul, sorta gaff rig style, helped, provided your mast is long enough, along with a throat downhaul of sorts. (In fact, the sail sets quite well as a gaff rig) Also a sprit boom / leg o mutton style spar/batten, from part way up the leach, say at the reef point. I'm not even sure what to call some of these attempts, and I did eventually just give up on it and wished I'd gone for a more conventionally shaped sail. I was not using it on an SF Pelican. I bought it because I thought it looked cool.
    Last edited by JimD; 10-12-2022 at 03:39 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Edward's point 8 alludes to using a bridle from the thwart to attach a block that is retained at a point in space above the centre of the boat.The notion of allowing the lower block to travel can be discarded-if and only if the twist in the sail has been brought under control by vanging.The thought will cause distress to those who have always used a traveller and believe it is essential.The crux of the matter is to control the twist in the sail and not to make the mistake of thinking that you will stall the sail or damage the flow over it's surface.By getting the sail shape under control and sheeting to the same angle,relative to the apparent wind,you will be pointing the boat a good bit higher than ever before.Which is where efficient foils come into play.If all you have under the boat is a plank with the sharp corners softened a bit you won't be achieving anything like the best performance.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    So a bridle like I already have on the main thwart but with the sheet attachment point fixed dead center rather than allowing it to travel back and forth, but if and ONLY if I have a vang of some sort?

    THE foils I have came with the boat. To properly make them uber air/water foils I would need to build new ones. These ones have a decent 2" taper to narrow edges but the taper is the same all around the foils, rather than more rounded on the leading edge as one would imagine it should be.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Edward's point 8 alludes to using a bridle from the thwart to attach a block that is retained at a point in space above the centre of the boat.The notion of allowing the lower block to travel can be discarded-if and only if the twist in the sail has been brought under control by vanging.The thought will cause distress to those who have always used a traveller and believe it is essential.The crux of the matter is to control the twist in the sail and not to make the mistake of thinking that you will stall the sail or damage the flow over it's surface.By getting the sail shape under control and sheeting to the same angle,relative to the apparent wind,you will be pointing the boat a good bit higher than ever before.Which is where efficient foils come into play.If all you have under the boat is a plank with the sharp corners softened a bit you won't be achieving anything like the best performance.
    Last edited by Toxophilite; 10-12-2022 at 05:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    with regard to item #4, I believe Edward is referring to something like this (please chime in if I have this wrong, Edward):
    278374F1-6961-4575-B894-E1B5F0AE8B63.jpg
    Toxo,

    1. Yeah a vertical line like that. In line with the sail luff. What you're wanting to achieve is the getting the upward pull of the main halyard, via the yard, to pull directly down the the sail's luff (rope). The halyard can actually not be tensioned other than raising the yard and cleated off. In the balanced lugs case, the downhaul provides luff tension. You have a 3:1 tackle pulling on what sounds like 2:1 block set up, so you have a 6:1, which should be adaquate. More than this and you'll need to have a reinforced luff rope, and a 'stiff' boat to what your attaching your downhaul to. The racing scows are usually 8:1 - 16:1 ballpark. In your case you're cleating off on the thwart, so with a reasonable piece of mast thwart, it shouldn be stiff, but just watch you don't bow your thwart or wherever you attach the downhaul to. This is why we try to isolate it to the mast and just have that in compression. As I mentioned earlier, it also matters how stiff the mast is. Too floppy and it will start to bow eventually and as eye's get closer to together you can loose tension.

    Don't neglect that yard outhaul. Make sure the sail is at the yards tip to given you a few inches of room to tighten the yard end part. Often room is short here as most builders don;t leave enough on. The system of attaching the halyard via a yard block, around the mast to that point vertically above the luff, spreads tension directly to the sail luff, and because of the yards angle, actually puts a pull back and up, in a line of the yard, putting the yard tip up into the air. With a decently taught yard outhaul and the yard solidly now anchored to the luff, this can additionally tension that top triangle at the leading edge for you.

    What you are trying to achieve is a flatter leading edge, to have a narrow entry angle for airflow. The split in the air around the sail, works like an airplane wing and the net negative pressure generated on the leeward side is what's sucking you to windward. Its a small vector slightly forward of the boat amidships, so avoid the tendency to oversheet. You should let out your mainsheet until it just starts to luff, then pull it back in a tad to have the maximum forward vector of thrust. Resist puling more mainsheet.

    Its that point of negative pressure that occurs 25-30% of the way aft from the luff that gives you the ability to get to windward and given that a sail is just a thin panel not a thicker cambered aeroplane type wing, it's a miracle of physics that it still works. This negative pressure occurs 25-30% of the way back all the way up the luff and in fact further up behind the yard. The more you have in length the more of a total force (boat speed) you have. It's why a bermudan triangle sail plan with its long luff edge works best to windward. Its the sail planform with the most length 25-30% back. Your jib should improve your pointing though, but you're trying to get a taught leading edge to your sail camber up the luff and up behind the yard as it curves around.

    Because a yard has to to take halyard loads in the middle, it's often seen thickest there and tapered at the ends. Given that we want to load the luff of the sail for narrow entry angle, I'm not a fan of tapered yards at the luff end and mine are full thickness. But look at your yard and see if it's stiff enough.

    Similarly, a mid mounted mainsheet is certainly my preference. While aft mounted mainsheets distribute loads over a wider area of boom, too often they get caught on the transom, and rope is behind or over your head. I think you've got 3:1 there. You might need 4:1 usually with mid boom sheeting unless your in light airs, as the mainsheet has less leverage In high winds you can put a' ratchamatic' block in there. It only comes on in higher winds, when the mainsheet is under tension and stops the line going out reducing your hand loads automatically, then in a tack when load comes off, it spins line out more freely. Its betterer.

    As with the yard, most designers show a tapered boom at each end, but give we are trying to load that luff end with a balanced lug, I keep it full width at that end. Because I prefer a centre mainsheet and that means the end of the boom isn't held and might bend up, I keep it full width there too. You can see a pattern here! Also in high winds just be gentle in gybes with it. Because all the loading on the boom mainsheet attachment is only at one point (some people split it over a small bridle to the boom for this reason) and there can be a screwed fitting that leads to a weakness/ rot, it can be a place for snapped booms in a crash gybe situation in high winds. Softly softly catchy monkey. Slowly does it. Just mentioning it.

    That bridle I mentioned. Ideal is a mainsheet traveller, but its too much on a small wooden dinghy that isn't racing etc. A good compromise to consider is a bridle, again you're not racing anyone but it depends on how much you want to do. Just a triangle made spanning your main thart and your bottom block attaches to the apex of it. Apex height is so that when you're fully pointing hard to windward it's touching block (lower mainsheet) to block (boom) practically. This does a few things. It removes those 3-4 passes of line you can see, saving about 12ft of line in and out. Less line needed, in the boat and less time. It also transfers more of a side to side pull on the mainsail and less down pull. Its also made adjustable in apex height by having a cleat on one end. This is getting a bit more than most cruisers want to bother with, but it makes a better controlled boat. Racers will want to avoid that excessive downward pull in light air. If they have a traveller they will heave the lower blocks attached to the traveller, to windward then let the mainsail out and they will have the sail back just off centreline, but with less downward pull and go faster.

    In high winds they'll do the opposite. Let the traveller to leeward so the sail is further off centre and spilling wind with an open leach and letting the kicker off in gusts to avoid being overpowered. Now, instead of a traveller you can rig a rope bridle over the main thwart, apex at max height allowing block to block, and you'll be able to pull the mainsheet close to midline with less downward pull than otherwise. In high winds, if the bridle is shortened down, the mainsheet take off is lower and the boom falls away to leeward more. So racers wanting a simpler boat have a an adjustable bridle rather than traveller. But a non adjustable one will work fine. You can just sail it as is though if you want. I probably would.

    [IMG]Keyhaven Scow 018 by keyhavenpotterer, on Flickr[/IMG]

    [IMG]Keyhaven Scow 017 by keyhavenpotterer, on Flickr[/IMG]


    This was dad's (KHP's) last scow. Maybe he knew, and left his rigging arrangement for me to follow on Flickr. That white dyneema bridle you can see there is moderate height because he was usually sailing in high winds. I think he used Rooster laser mainsheet. My brain is telling me because it doesn't absorb water (stays light), comfortable and cheap. Ratchmatic block at the bottom. Kicker and downhaul led back. Carbon rig, was actually a bit floppy. I remember he got his moldings, then put structural foam under the gunwale and glassed in some carbon weave around to make the boat stiffer! Those dyneema shrouds he liked as it didn't chafe the boat with the mast down, but he once lost the mast with chafe through at the mast tip! I'm happier with steel.

    This is a better picture of a bridle - that blue triangle of line. See how the mainsheet blocks are block- to - block and he's not got all that line out the way. Pull will be a bit more lateral fromthe top of the rope triangle. Of course racy boats sometimes have a fixed stainless hoop to almost boom height which is better but innaproriate for woodies. Mainsheet blocks split to reduce point loadings.



    With you're little bowsprit, the tip of your mast now has line of sight past the yard, and you could actually now run a forestay and shrouds if you can store the boat mast up and weren't thinking of dropping the rig often. That'll hold sail shape better as the mast tip is held. You might need to add a small bobstay too. You point a bit higher with the lug sorted, a bit higher with that jib and a bit higher again with standing rigging (despite the small added windage). But do what gives you pleasure. Less is more often, especially as I get older.

    If you look carefully from the leading brands and chandlers, you can usually find decent rope thats black, buff, or grey and isn't gopping for a classic boat aesthetic.

    One the tip dad imparted from racing a balanced lug. In light air downwind....if you can tip the boat, and arrange the mainsail port or starboard so the sail's leach is closer to the horizontal. This puts the wider span of the leach, higher in the air where the air is stronger and gets a boat length.

    As John said, once everything is done with the rig, focus has to then turn to the foils.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 10-13-2022 at 03:42 AM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    THanks again Edward for all the excellent information. I already added a little spectra line on my yard as per your suggestion. I also re-rigged my yard outhaul and adjusted my lacing as it was too snug. I will also be switching to better running rigging line too. For now white double braid but eventually some sort of Dyeema cored stuff for the halyard and downhaul. The idea is to get good performance without compromising the aesthetic too much. Something it seems you understand.

    For me, strangely, the aesthetic is important. I had lot's of nice small glass sloop rigged boats but I was never in a position to appreciate their aesthtic while sailing and the cockpits usually had a hot tub vibe. As I've always worked with woods, Bows, guitars etc. It's nice to be surrounded by the beautiful craftsmanship , colours and shapes and structure of a wooden boat as I sail. Feels right and adds to the enjoyment.

    I don't know if I'll be adding a forestay, (though I understand what you're saying) and adding a bobstay would involve adding an attachment point low on the stem. I must admit I'm loathe to drill holes in the boat. it took me a couple of months to add the Blk locust cleats I made to the inside of the Gunwales! The boat is relatively new to me and I put a LOT of time into her so far.

    My spars are pretty stout though sadly the builder did this to my yard. There's a purpleheart fairlead on the other side that was used to hold a ring which hung on the mast traveller. On the suggestion of a forumite I flipped the yard and replaced the ring with a loop of line. This is now on top. However I am not happy with the hugely countersunk 1/4" bolts. I made a piece to glue overtop to add strength.
    IMG_1448.jpg

    I also might still shorten my mast, Probably at least a foot as I never use the last foot anyway. It was designed to be 12' and is now 14' The extra was added to the bottom and the mast has a slight bend up top which I've faced forwards( well actually forwards and to starboard) This will allow me to recut the slot for the sheave which is a little wide. It looks really cool being so tall but it will also likely be less bendy if it's a little shorter and the top of the mast is a little thicker.


    I do have a question, you were talking about laced foots vs loose footed . As designed mine is laced to the boom. Humourously the sailmaker roped the foot and the head!? Would it be worth trying running the main loose-footed. My Shellback dinghy was rigged that way.As far as the luff strength goes, it had NO reenforcement when I got it, so as per a sailmaker here on the forum's suggestion I added 2" luff tape and then on top of that, a 3" piece so it is pretty strong.

    Thanks again

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    On the mast length...how did you feel sail area was for your typical winds. If you're a bit undercavassed (a 12ft dinghy would ballpark have 75 sqft) you could order a new sail with an extra reef worth of sail area. Won't change the center of effort much and you have the mast already. Also if you did add a forestay, a longer mast helps clear the forestay over the yard. It also works as a ridge pole under the cover. A shorter mast will be lighter and you'll be using a stiffer lower section. Keep a gap betwen the yard and the beehole or halyard block so it's got some room otherwise it gets squashed up against the mast head. I'm finishing my 12ft Shearwater and built a longer than the boat mast to put an extra reef of sail area on it, up from 65 to 75 I think it was, as Iain had drawn it. I think Iain builds his with a extra reefs worth to ensure he's got the faster boat! This is the kind of underhand cheating it takes to win races.

    Our Solent Scows use sail track riveted to the yard and boom and the balanced lug slots in. The mast is aluminium 5cm diam 1.6 wall (and stayed), boom 5 cm diam 1.6 (with track which adds weight but stiffness) and yard 4cm diam 1.6 wall (again with track to add stiffness). Some people use a carbon windsurfer mast cut off for the yard to save weight further, but it's more floppy and in fact it's reckoned the sail sits better on the alloy spars that the sailmaker used to develop the sail. Alloy spars are actually super cheap as round sections - about 20-25 each if you wanted to try your sail in some sail track as it sounds you have the rope on them. T



    The foot of the sail is built with 'a shelf' to try to give the sail full camber at the bottom. Picture above kinda shows it. Personally I went loose footed on my Shearwater sail - I get fulll camber, but don't have the end plate affect benefit. I think its kind of a wash either way. I also sail in higher winds generally, and actually asked for a 'flatter' sail accordingly.

    To pull the mainsail back when using the jib, they use a forward or aft attachment position for the downhaul and there is a basic tie for the boom to mast. Solo, balanced lug only is how they are usually sailed though and any mast - boom attachments always prove slower. No main halyard ring around the mast either as the sail's pretty small. I think I would on something like a CY, but its not seen on small balanced lugs here. The scow spars are sized to fit in the boat (it was derived from a yacht tender). I think they're actually 11ft with 10ft waterline. They try to keep them 'one deisgn' as far as possible, but no two are quite alike...
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 10-14-2022 at 05:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Well my sail is 68sq feet and it does often feel like I could use more and the boat is happier in a good breeze.That's part of my motivation for adding a jib. I do plan to get a sailrite kit one day for the boat but finances at this point don't allow it. if I do I might go a little bigger/taller. I think my sail is likely cut pretty flat as it was made by someone who makes racing sails and didn't have a lot of knowledge of traditional sails.

    Paul Gartside said the 130 was originally designed as a rowboat for teaching traditional clinker boat building but he added the rig as so many people wanted to try sailing them. The mast as designed was supposed to fit in the boat. Stretched it doesn't. The fitted boat cover doesn't fit as well.
    Interestingly there's a stretched (13'4") mostly finished shearwater hull available locally. Needs everything else though. I'm sore tempted. Looks like a lovely boat.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    I have always preferred standing lug.
    Standing lug.jpg
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    That’s how I use mine, interestingly on Ian Oughtred’s site where he discusses rigs he has a standing lug that looks exactly like the sailplan of the 130. I like the standing lug too

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I have always preferred standing lug.
    Standing lug.jpg
    Other than the sail dropping instantly without binding, that might as well be a gaff rig. What's the difference in use? Any advantages to setting it up as a standing lug instead?

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Other than the sail dropping instantly without binding, that might as well be a gaff rig. What's the difference in use? Any advantages to setting it up as a standing lug instead?

    Tom
    Single halyard over the gaff's two and without the gaff's side loading you can have a thinner mast tip (forces are mainly compression).

    It's not all better. Gaff gets rid of that bit of yard weight and yard and sail interfering with the forestay positions/ job/ genoa leech. A heavy gaff and its sail is at least under partial control as it's raised and lowered, neither will it jam to the mast, and you've got scandilising options like dropping the peak halyard or tricing the luff to depower the sail.

    Check this out...where things stood in about 1890 just as Gaff was becoming generally favoured they were racing some big standing lugs.

    G. L. Watson 5 rater Natica:


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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Beautiful!

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Wow that is a big, peaked lug! I wonder if they had to send a guy forward to help get the clew around the mast/boom.
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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither



    Payne's 5 Rater Savourna (1891).

    They don't seem to have moved the yard side to side. I guess like the Fisherman they'd set it up for the favourable beat.

    There was one called Norma: a lovely picture in John Leather's Spritsail and Lugsails book, with big standing lug. Printed in the 70's (Adlard Coles) I'd still best not post a photo?

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Other than the sail dropping instantly without binding, that might as well be a gaff rig. What's the difference in use? Any advantages to setting it up as a standing lug instead?

    Tom
    Simplicity and cost. No gaff jaws to build, only one halyard, no blocks in the halyard.'
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post


    Payne's 5 Rater Savourna (1891).

    They don't seem to have moved the yard side to side. I guess like the Fisherman they'd set it up for the favourable beat.

    There was one called Norma. A lovely picture in John Leather's Spritsail and Lugsails book witha big standing lug. Printed in the 70's (Adlard Coles) I'd still best not post a photo?
    That looks like a typical Victorian, "Let's take something that works, and bugger about with it".
    It looks like a couple of mast hoops on the luff, and a peak halyard on a short span.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Shawyer with his crew, taking Norman and her owners out in 1894. Not your typical lug fishing boat!


    IMG_0877.jpg
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 10-19-2022 at 08:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Standing or Balanced or neither

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Simplicity and cost. No gaff jaws to build, only one halyard, no blocks in the halyard.'
    Thanks--that all makes sense. And yet, it seems like gaff rig was much more prevalent in larger boats than lug rig.

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